Time Trapper Vs Odin

Originally posted by leonidas
i believe bran's stance is that tt is being very much over-rated here. i agree. 👆

You're free to elaborate. Because from what i saw, it's more like lowballing based on out of context scans.

Originally posted by abhilegend
His feats are beyond Odin's feats and he's an avatar of entropy. He can stalemate Infinite Man in raw power who derives his power from every point of time and space.

And he returned even from one place which totally contradicts his existence aka the birth of universe.

That's better than anything Odin has done against an abstract. He has also casually stopped the crisis wave from destroying the pocket universe which was an unprecedented feat. So he has better feats than Odin in just two dozen or such showings.

Time Trapper is also the very embodiment of entropy.

Time Trapper was beaten by Infinite Man, which is the main reason he hid a part of himself in Mon-el and reemerged after that 5-year gap into LOSH v4.

I posted the scan for that in my previous reply.

Originally posted by operator616
This has absolutely nothing to do with Time Trapper warping the timelines. At all. It's a completely different instance. Well, firstly because that happened about 30 years prior to your scans, off-panel. The chronological time period in which Time Trapper performed this feat is right before Adventure Comics #247 (1958). Because that's when the Legion (there were only 3 members back then) traveled to Superboy's time period (back then, 1930s). And ever since TT was manipulating them. It was confirmed multiple times that Time Trapper tampering with time (back then, it wasn't known that "all timelines" were affected, just that he tampered with time) is what caused the Legion to always meet Trapper's Superboy, here's one from AC #591:

http://i.imgur.com/6ZXi5d3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5JQ6eU1.jpg

And this post-crisis Superman issue outright references Legion's very first appearance in Adventure Comics #247 (first four scans summarize the issue exactly as it is, and the last one references various pre-crisis Legion adventures)

http://i.imgur.com/CL91lQs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/45mMHoH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RXkcEDg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/o09Jxw2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ziPcst2.jpg

And we know Time Trapper arranged all that (this was confirmed multiple times):

http://i.imgur.com/6ZXi5d3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5JQ6eU1.jpg

Then after this, the revelation in LOSH v4 came that TT warped "all timelines" to achieve this. That's why you won't find Time Trapper actually doing this feat live. Because it was a revelation which came later. Well that, and because back in his early adventure comics appearances he was signficantly weaker than we know him to be in his later Pre-Zero Hour and Post-Zero Hour appearances. Which is understandable since that time period of comics didn't feature cosmic beings like they did in the bronze age (i mean, there were some, heck, i remember Luthor becoming omnipotent even in the Golden Age, but it was very rare) Just take a look at Adventure Comics #338, where Time Trapper transforms (through technology) some of the Legion members into babies and when the curtain of time fades away (which curtails time travel) Superboy appears and TT is afraid of him. He wasn't as powerful as back then. But he became later, which is why this was a revelation afterward.

Anyway, what your scans show is Superboy -- who was capable of time traveling under his own power, unlike Bryne's Superman -- breaking the time barrier to transport the Legion to the Time Trapper who was threatening Superboy's universe unless he delivered him the Legion. Nothing to do with the timelines warping.

OK, first of all, Mon-el didn't beat Time Trapper to death, it was Glorith that did that afterwards.

So, Mon-el supposedly kills Time Trapper in issue #4, then in issue #13, Time Trapper says that Mon-el merely destroyed his form but not his essence:

http://i.imgur.com/Ov0ctm2.jpg?1

Also, you might wanna emphasize on the "weakened" part. Because TT was more than just "weakened" he was damn near close death. Infinite Man beat him to near Death in LOSH v3 #50. He was so weak that he literally hid a spark of himself inside Mon-el. So imagine at what power-level he must be operating at?

http://i.imgur.com/0SKCkNy.jpg?1

Lastly, saying that Mon-el "killed" the Time Trapper in the same story where he was stated to warp timelines is completely irrelevant, because he didn't warp the timelines in that story (i already explained this in detail), so im not sure what's your point here?

Bran got owned.

Originally posted by operator616
You're free to elaborate. Because from what i saw, it's more like lowballing based on out of context scans.

Time Trapper is also the very embodiment of entropy.

Time Trapper was beaten by Infinite Man, which is the main reason he hid a part of himself in Mon-el and reemerged after that 5-year gap into LOSH v4.

I posted the scan for that in my previous reply.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's not your fault, ... but this feat makes no sense if that's the sole reasoning behind re-arranging an entire multiverse.
I mean, he warped an infinite amount of universes to affect a handful of time-travelers? 😐

Anyway, perhaps I'm missing something not clarified in those scans, cause tbh, the feat is a wtf.

See below.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
You could take it as him warping every universe, or you could see it as him specifically only altering their path to the past. No matter from what universe they entered, they would all end up in the same universe without his manipulation. All he did was switch the path with his pocket universe instead. Mind you it would have still taken a lot of power, but still.

He specifically mentions that he warped all timelines. And him saying that he guided their path doesn't contradict that at all. Because he guided their path by warping all timelines. Also, it wasn't just "Legion's path" that he guided, because that would contradict many Pre-Crisis Legion stories. Random example: Like in Superboy #204, when a device (which had nothing to do with Legion, which was separate) altered Superboy's era (which according to the retcon would be in the pocket dimension). So that means everyone, Legionnaires or not, are included in this manipulation.

Another thing, is that it actually makes sense that Time Trapper manipulated whole timelines rather than not, because it could explain certain things. Among which is, Supergirl, of course. Who was completely erased from continuity in Crisis On Infinite Earths, yet, the Legion continuity acknowledged her, and she was never established to be part of Trapper's pocket (the original, i mean). When not in Legion's era, Pre-crisis Superboy and Supergirl mostly operated in two different eras (adventure comics #350)

http://i.imgur.com/1rl4Hih.jpg?1

So notice the contradiction according to the retcon: Supergirl knew what the future holds for Superboy because of Superman, but Superboy wasn't Superman as an adult. So that could all be explained away by Trapper's mucking with the timelines. That's one solution i see how to explain that he warped "all timelines" (well, apart from the above reason i stated).

All those adventure comics were also referenced in post-crisis Legion issues, so they have to fit somehow, and with all this mess, you can throw it at time trapper warping the timelines, imo. Especially when it's connected to Superboy.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

I mean, the guy was scared of Mordru who was destined to be a universal ruler... when he wasn't a ruler yet. Are we to really presume he can warp the multiverse in any significant way?

I wonder, why are you using this against the Time Trapper? Because you know he was de-powered at that time period, you referenced it yourself in the very next post. Depowered to a point where he had to hide a portion of himself inside Mon-el, so why wouldn't he be threatened by a potentially universal being, at the brink of death?

But aside from that, take a look at End of an Era, when Time Trapper literally calls Mordru a "minor" power:

http://i.imgur.com/ZzF2eEY.jpg?1

Doesn't look like he was afraid of him here, unlike when he was in a time period when he was near death....no?

I mean, if Time Trapper refers to Mordru as a minor power in the same arc where he absorbed enough energies to give him control over all timelines (all time and space), are we really to presume that he can't affect the multiverse in any significant way?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Trapper wasn't beaten by Infinite Man. They were stalemating and then Brainy helped IM taking Trapper to the beginning of time which contradicts his very existence.

Yeah, i just rechecked the scene, he had a bit of help from B5. I actually missed that part.

Although, it's kind of weird; i mean, yeah, Time Trapper's nature of residing at the end of time should contradict that beginning of time would contradict his existence, but we know from Adventures of Superman #444 (which is around the same period as LOSH v3 #50), that Time Trapper was born at that same time:

http://i.imgur.com/vNy7wk4.jpg?1

Also, to clarify: the Mon-el part stays the same. He was beaten by IM (helped by B5) and hid himself inside Mon-el. I just missed the part where B5 lends him a hand.

Originally posted by operator616
Yeah, i just rechecked the scene, he had a bit of help from B5. I actually missed that part.

Although, it's kind of weird; i mean, yeah, Time Trapper's nature of residing at the end of time should contradict that beginning of time would contradict his existence, but we know from Adventures of Superman #444 (which is around the same period as LOSH v3 #50), that Time Trapper was born at that same time:

http://i.imgur.com/vNy7wk4.jpg?1

Also, to clarify: the Mon-el part stays the same. He was beaten by IM (helped by B5) and hid himself inside Mon-el. I just missed the part where B5 lends him a hand.

Originally posted by operator616
This has absolutely nothing to do with Time Trapper warping the timelines. At all. It's a completely different instance. Well, firstly because that happened about 30 years prior to your scans, off-panel. The chronological time period in which Time Trapper performed this feat is right before Adventure Comics #247 (1958). Because that's when the Legion (there were only 3 members back then) traveled to Superboy's time period (back then, 1930s). And ever since TT was manipulating them. It was confirmed multiple times that Time Trapper tampering with time (back then, it wasn't known that "all timelines" were affected, just that he tampered with time) is what caused the Legion to always meet Trapper's Superboy, here's one from AC #591:

http://i.imgur.com/6ZXi5d3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5JQ6eU1.jpg

And this post-crisis Superman issue outright references Legion's very first appearance in Adventure Comics #247 (first four scans summarize the issue exactly as it is, and the last one references various pre-crisis Legion adventures)

http://i.imgur.com/CL91lQs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/45mMHoH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RXkcEDg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/o09Jxw2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ziPcst2.jpg

And we know Time Trapper arranged all that (this was confirmed multiple times):

http://i.imgur.com/6ZXi5d3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5JQ6eU1.jpg

Then after this, the revelation in LOSH v4 came that TT warped "all timelines" to achieve this. That's why you won't find Time Trapper actually doing this feat live. Because it was a revelation which came later. Well that, and because back in his early adventure comics appearances he was signficantly weaker than we know him to be in his later Pre-Zero Hour and Post-Zero Hour appearances. Which is understandable since that time period of comics didn't feature cosmic beings like they did in the bronze age (i mean, there were some, heck, i remember Luthor becoming omnipotent even in the Golden Age, but it was very rare) Just take a look at Adventure Comics #338, where Time Trapper transforms (through technology) some of the Legion members into babies and when the curtain of time fades away (which curtails time travel) Superboy appears and TT is afraid of him. He wasn't as powerful as back then. But he became later, which is why this was a revelation afterward.
by
Anyway, what your scans show is Superboy -- who was capable of time traveling under his own power, unlike Bryne's Superman -- breaking the time barrier to transport the Legion to the Time Trapper who was threatening Superboy's universe unless he delivered him the Legion. Nothing to do with the timelines warping.

OK, first of all, Mon-el didn't beat Time Trapper to death, it was Glorith that did that afterwards.

So, Mon-el supposedly kills Time Trapper in issue #4, then in issue #13, Time Trapper says that Mon-el merely destroyed his form but not his essence:

http://i.imgur.com/Ov0ctm2.jpg?1

Also, you might wanna emphasize on the "weakened" part. Because TT was more than just "weakened" he was damn near close death. Infinite Man beat him to near Death in LOSH v3 #50. He was so weak that he literally hid a spark of himself inside Mon-el. So imagine at what power-level he must be operating at?

http://i.imgur.com/0SKCkNy.jpg?1

Lastly, saying that Mon-el "killed" the Time Trapper in the same story where he was stated to warp timelines is completely irrelevant, because he didn't warp the timelines in that story (i already explained this in detail), so im not sure what's your point here?

How powerful is Infinite Man? What's he actually done?

I assume he must be pretty powerful, but I don't know much about him outside of the fact he somehow exists along a perpetual time loop and is powered by all of time, but in terms of feats..?

Originally posted by cdtm
How powerful is Infinite Man? What's he actually done?

I assume he must be pretty powerful, but I don't know much about him outside of the fact he somehow exists along a perpetual time loop and is powered by all of time, but in terms of feats..?

He's extremely powerful, at least later on. Initially in his first appearance, just like Time Trapper, he wasn't all that powerful. But later on, he was universal at the very least.

At the same time period of COIE. He absorbed some of Anti-Monitor's energies to free himself (which is a pretty cool feat) in LOSH v3 #18:

http://i.imgur.com/UZ9U2aM.jpg

Here's a bio confirming it:

http://i.imgur.com/4Y3GmoD.jpg?1

Later on, in "End of An Era" arc, Mordru/Glorith in possession of Infinite Man's powers, were stated to possess "complete control over time and space" (all timelines essentially):

http://i.imgur.com/o3FbW8W.jpg

And they demonstrated that power by warping reality:

http://i.imgur.com/3v7oE6B.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/gAXRHDy.jpg

Which is why Time Trapper stalemating Pre-Zero Hour Infinite Man, is very impressive.

I had a long post almost done, and then my computer restarted and lost everything. Guess I'll condense it. 🙁

Originally posted by operator616
This has absolutely nothing to do with Time Trapper warping the timelines. At all. It's a completely different instance. Well, firstly because that happened about 30 years prior to your scans, off-panel. The chronological time period in which Time Trapper performed this feat is right before Adventure Comics #247 (1958). Because that's when the Legion (there were only 3 members back then) traveled to Superboy's time period (back then, 1930s). And ever since TT was manipulating them. It was confirmed multiple times that Time Trapper tampering with time (back then, it wasn't known that "all timelines" were affected, just that he tampered with time) is what caused the Legion to always meet Trapper's Superboy, here's one from AC #591:

http://i.imgur.com/6ZXi5d3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5JQ6eU1.jpg

And this post-crisis Superman issue outright references Legion's very first appearance in Adventure Comics #247 (first four scans summarize the issue exactly as it is, and the last one references various pre-crisis Legion adventures)

http://i.imgur.com/CL91lQs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/45mMHoH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RXkcEDg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/o09Jxw2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ziPcst2.jpg

And we know Time Trapper arranged all that (this was confirmed multiple times):

http://i.imgur.com/6ZXi5d3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5JQ6eU1.jpg

Then after this, the revelation in LOSH v4 came that TT warped "all timelines" to achieve this. That's why you won't find Time Trapper actually doing this feat live. Because it was a revelation which came later. Well that, and because back in his early adventure comics appearances he was signficantly weaker than we know him to be in his later Pre-Zero Hour and Post-Zero Hour appearances. Which is understandable since that time period of comics didn't feature cosmic beings like they did in the bronze age (i mean, there were some, heck, i remember Luthor becoming omnipotent even in the Golden Age, but it was very rare) Just take a look at Adventure Comics #338, where Time Trapper transforms (through technology) some of the Legion members into babies and when the curtain of time fades away (which curtails time travel) Superboy appears and TT is afraid of him. He wasn't as powerful as back then. But he became later, which is why this was a revelation afterward.

Anyway, what your scans show is Superboy -- who was capable of time traveling under his own power, unlike Bryne's Superman -- breaking the time barrier to transport the Legion to the Time Trapper who was threatening Superboy's universe unless he delivered him the Legion. Nothing to do with the timelines warping.

What I meant was that that was actually him sending them to the pocket universe and "manipulating time" to accomplish this. Which would have been the effect of him warping all timelines. And presumably if Trapper is guiding them everytime, then what exactly does "warping all timelines" entail?

Hell, even in your recap the flashback of Trapper shows him touching his ball in the same way he did when he guided them. And when you connect that with this scan:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_38__0006.jpg

Where Trapper outright says he was guiding them in their first travel, it means he didn't just warp a bunch of timelines and they magically appeared there.
As well as Trapper says "Each time"
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_38__0017.jpg

So with that info, what exactly did trapper do when he "warped all timelines"? Because we know he guided them there everytime they went there. We've seen him do it, and we have confirmation of him doing it.

And the whole "warping all timelines" seems questionable given that Trapper told Glorith that they weren't actually traveling through time, but to another dimension (though this seems questionable as well).
http://i60.tinypic.com/25qeidw.jpg

So again, since he guided them to the dimension, and it wasn't actually time travel (apparently), then what exactly does "warping all timelines" mean? How big of a feat is this? How much stock do we put into it when we've actually seen how he accomplishes this?

Now let's play a game, but without Legion 4 happening, where would you place his feat? And by that I mean the "Warping all timelines" line.

Originally posted by operator616
OK, first of all, Mon-el didn't beat Time Trapper to death, it was Glorith that did that afterwards.

So, Mon-el supposedly kills Time Trapper in issue #4, then in issue #13, Time Trapper says that Mon-el merely destroyed his form but not his essence:

http://i.imgur.com/Ov0ctm2.jpg?1

Also, you might wanna emphasize on the "weakened" part. Because TT was more than just "weakened" he was damn near close death. Infinite Man beat him to near Death in LOSH v3 #50. He was so weak that he literally hid a spark of himself inside Mon-el. So imagine at what power-level he must be operating at?

http://i.imgur.com/0SKCkNy.jpg?1

Lastly, saying that Mon-el "killed" the Time Trapper in the same story where he was stated to warp timelines is completely irrelevant, because he didn't warp the timelines in that story (i already explained this in detail), so im not sure what's your point here?

Mon-El killed his physical body but not his essence. However, even his essence was dying from the beatdown.
http://i60.tinypic.com/2hqgqj4.jpg

He was essentially just a dying ghost at that point. So yes, he was still alive but "dead". Though I'm curious if I would have put quotations around it in the first place that you would have responded the same.

So... what you're saying is that Time Trapper was weakened?

Because that story is the only "proof" that Time Trapper somehow warped the multiverse. No he didn't do anything in the story, but it's the same story that you're using solely to put him on a multi Eternity level. And weakened or not (super weakened, sorry) it seems funny that he was actually beaten to death ("death"😉 by Mon-El.

Originally posted by operator616
He specifically mentions that he warped all timelines. And him saying that he guided their path doesn't contradict that at all. Because he guided their path by warping all timelines. Also, it wasn't just "Legion's path" that he guided, because that would contradict many Pre-Crisis Legion stories. Random example: Like in Superboy #204, when a device (which had nothing to do with Legion, which was separate) altered Superboy's era (which according to the retcon would be in the pocket dimension). So that means everyone, Legionnaires or not, are included in this manipulation.

Another thing, is that it actually makes sense that Time Trapper manipulated whole timelines rather than not, because it could explain certain things. Among which is, Supergirl, of course. Who was completely erased from continuity in Crisis On Infinite Earths, yet, the Legion continuity acknowledged her, and she was never established to be part of Trapper's pocket (the original, i mean). When not in Legion's era, Pre-crisis Superboy and Supergirl mostly operated in two different eras (adventure comics #350)

http://i.imgur.com/1rl4Hih.jpg?1

So notice the contradiction according to the retcon: Supergirl knew what the future holds for Superboy because of Superman, but Superboy wasn't Superman as an adult. So that could all be explained away by Trapper's mucking with the timelines. That's one solution i see how to explain that he warped "all timelines" (well, apart from the above reason i stated).

All those adventure comics were also referenced in post-crisis Legion issues, so they have to fit somehow, and with all this mess, you can throw it at time trapper warping the timelines, imo. Especially when it's connected to Superboy.

And can you actually attribute any of the bottom of what you said to Time Trapper? Or are you connecting dots where there's none?
IE, Supergirl's existence. On panel, being due to Time Trapper. Or is it just a continuity error? I mean, it was PC as well, and I'm assuming it was before Legion started trying to "explain" things. Why must it be due to Trapper?

Originally posted by operator616
I wonder, why are you using this against the Time Trapper? Because you know he was de-powered at that time period, you referenced it yourself in the very next post. Depowered to a point where he had to hide a portion of himself inside Mon-el, so why wouldn't he be threatened by a potentially universal being, at the brink of death?

But aside from that, take a look at End of an Era, when Time Trapper literally calls Mordru a "minor" power:

http://i.imgur.com/ZzF2eEY.jpg?1

Doesn't look like he was afraid of him here, unlike when he was in a time period when he was near death....no?

I mean, if Time Trapper refers to Mordru as a minor power in the same arc where he absorbed enough energies to give him control over all timelines (all time and space), are we really to presume that he can't affect the multiverse in any significant way?

Trapper's entire history besides Prime Trapper was about getting back at Mordru. I don't think one statement overrides all of that.

Plus there's Glorith actually stalemating Mordru, so...

Probably, yeah. Because even if Mordru was far below him, that doesn't put him at multiversal levels.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

Bah, that's not what I meant, but I can see how it got construed as such.

What I meant was that that was actually him sending them to the pocket universe and "manipulating time" to accomplish this. Which would have been the effect of him warping all timelines. And presumably if Trapper is guiding them everytime, then what exactly does "warping all timelines" entail?

Hell, even in your recap the flashback of Trapper shows him touching his ball in the same way he did when he guided them. And when you connect that with this scan:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_38__0006.jpg

Where Trapper outright says he was guiding them in their first travel, it means he didn't just warp a bunch of timelines and they magically appeared there.
As well as Trapper says "Each time"
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_38__0017.jpg

So with that info, what exactly did trapper do when he "warped all timelines"? Because we know he guided them there everytime they went there. We've seen him do it, and we have confirmation of him doing it.

Which is still irrelevant. Because either way, that's not the "manipulating all timelines" in effect because that got weakened when the Crisis came. That's where this whole mess started to reveal itself. Firstly, in the Cosmic Boy mini-series, it was Cosmic Boy along with Nigh Girl traveled to the 20th century era and actually ended up in the real, not the pocket, universe. Because of the Crisis time distortions. Same thing happened in a couple of issues of Booster Gold (at that same time period) to the Legion members. That's why post-crisis, his manipulation of the timelines was weakened, and you can't use this post-crisis.

Yes, what about "each time"? Consider this: Time Trapper warped all timelines so that each time when the Legion travels through time, they end up in his pocket dimension. Not seeing what's the problem here.

Anyway, re-look at the Legion v4 scan, it pretty clearly implies that he warped timelines so that the Legion travel to his Earth without him actively guiding them each time. And neither is there proof that he was guiding them each and every time. I mean, do you honestly believe that when the retcon happened, the writer meant for the Trapper to manipulate the Legion every single time they travel, rather than arranging the timelines so that whenever they travel, they end up in the pocket?

We'll resolve what "warping all timelines" means, in the second post.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

And the whole "warping all timelines" seems questionable given that Trapper told Glorith that they weren't actually traveling through time, but to another dimension (though this seems questionable as well).
http://i60.tinypic.com/25qeidw.jpg

So again, since he guided them to the dimension, and it wasn't actually time travel (apparently), then what exactly does "warping all timelines" mean? How big of a feat is this? How much stock do we put into it when we've actually seen how he accomplishes this?

I think you're misinterpreting the scan. And i honestly don't understand how it can confuse you at this point.

Whenever the "time barrier" is broken (and directed at Superboy's era), the Legion will end up in the pocket universe instead, not in the actual past era of the real universe. Because if they actually did travel back in time (which would bring them to the real, and not the pocket, universe), they wouldn't have found Superboy, because Superboy never existed to begin with (because of Bryne rebooting Superman's origins after COIE).

So basically, Time Trapper manipulated all timelines so that, whatever time period it may be, whether it is 30th, 40th, 50th, or even 10th (and specifically directed at Superboy's time era) they (mostly the legion, because they were the ones who mostly visited Superboy's time era) end up in Trapper's pocket dimension.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

Seems like schematics to me.

Mon-El killed his physical body but not his essence. However, even his essence was dying from the beatdown.
http://i60.tinypic.com/2hqgqj4.jpg

He was essentially just a dying ghost at that point. So yes, he was still alive but "dead". Though I'm curious if I would have put quotations around it in the first place that you would have responded the same.

So... what you're saying is that Time Trapper was weakened?

Because that story is the only "proof" that Time Trapper somehow warped the multiverse. No he didn't do anything in the story, but it's the same story that you're using solely to put him on a multi Eternity level. And weakened or not (super weakened, sorry) it seems funny that he was actually beaten to death ("death"😉 by Mon-El.

Ok, he was near death, but not actually dead, doesn't change my point though.

Yes, he was "weakened", i merely clarified just how weakened he is. Near death, is how weakened he was. Important detail, imo.

Im not putting him on multi-eternity's level. I specifically said that id put him on this level going by his highest showing (which is warping the multiverse), but then i clarified that on average (which is the one which actually counts) he is above Galactus and below regular Eternity.

Ok, i get what you were saying, but Mon-el semi-killing a near-death Trapper, doesn't diminish his status, in any way. I mean, i could get into his low showings if you want, because those would diminish him if anything, but certainly not the mon-el instance.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
That'd be all well and good if we didn't actually see how he guided their path. He had to actually interfere to make them enter the pocket universe.

And can you actually attribute any of the bottom of what you said to Time Trapper? Or are you connecting dots where there's none?
IE, Supergirl's existence. On panel, being due to Time Trapper. Or is it just a continuity error? I mean, it was PC as well, and I'm assuming it was before Legion started trying to "explain" things. Why must it be due to Trapper?

No he didn't. He manipulated all time eras so that whenever a certain timelines is directed at Superboy's era it automatically sends he/she/it to his pocket.

Very much so. Because the Legion continuity was never rebooted after COIE. Here's Legion v3 referencing Adventure Comics #352 (literally two issues after the particular scan i posted):

http://i.imgur.com/q0dtRYL.jpg?1

I already showed you Superman v2 #8 scan directly referencing Adventure Comics #247, all those are in continuity and nothing has changed. They all have to fit somehow. And im telling you how they can fit: Time Trapper. Which also makes sense given that he's behind the whole mess. He's try it before Pre-Zero Hour. An issue of Post-ZH LOSH says that which ended in damaging reality:

http://i.imgur.com/mkMPrIY.jpg

But more importantly, when you ask if all this applies.....yes, it should apply by default. Since it was established that nobody knew of this pocket until the crisis, then every single being who traveled to Superboy's era, was manipulated by the Trapper by default. That would mean that the Legion were not specifically targeted, because they weren't the only ones. I already gave an example and i could give more.

So what im trying to say is, "warping all timelines" wasn't just what you'd translate to "diverting Legion's path into the pocket", it'd be manipulating every single being/event, from all kinds of timelines who were aiming at Superboy's era.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

When he actually "warped all timelines" he wasn't weakened though (unless I'm missing something). And his entire purpose behind "warping all timelines" was a plan to defeat Mordru.
Because he did it before he was inside Mon-El.

Trapper's entire history besides Prime Trapper was about getting back at Mordru. I don't think one statement overrides all of that.

Plus there's Glorith actually stalemating Mordru, so...

Probably, yeah. Because even if Mordru was far below him, that doesn't put him at multiversal levels.

Yes, he wasn't weakened, at least not that we're aware of.

That's not exactly true. That was only LOSH v4, and in the Pre-ZH period. Only. And it kind of changes. An issue of AoS outright says that the real crux crux of his scheme is to actually destroy the Legion:

http://i.imgur.com/uC9eE26.jpg?1

Also, in the Pre-Crisis era, Time Trapper never particularly cared about Mordru at all, i don't remember him even mentioning Mordru at any point in time.

Yeah, but it was outright stated that whoever wins, will mean the universe is finished, universe meaning the whole timestream, all timelines. Not that bad of a showing.

But again, im not trying to imply that Time Trapper is always portrayed as being a multiversal power. Just on that one occasion, he was. He has a multiversal feat, that doesn't mean it will take a multiversal power to beat him, i said he's below Eternity and above Galactus (normal) on average.

Originally posted by operator616
Which is still irrelevant. Because either way, that's not the "manipulating all timelines" in effect because that got weakened when the Crisis came. That's where this whole mess started to reveal itself. Firstly, in the Cosmic Boy mini-series, it was Cosmic Boy along with Nigh Girl traveled to the 20th century era and actually ended up in the real, not the pocket, universe. Because of the Crisis time distortions. Same thing happened in a couple of issues of Booster Gold (at that same time period) to the Legion members. That's why post-crisis, his manipulation of the timelines was weakened, and you can't use this post-crisis.

Yes, what about "each time"? Consider this: Time Trapper warped all timelines so that each time when the Legion travels through time, they end up in his pocket dimension. Not seeing what's the problem here.

Anyway, re-look at the Legion v4 scan, it pretty clearly implies that he warped timelines so that the Legion travel to his Earth without him actively guiding them each time. And neither is there proof that he was guiding them each and every time. I mean, do you honestly believe that when the retcon happened, the writer meant for the Trapper to manipulate the Legion every single time they travel, rather than arranging the timelines so that whenever they travel, they end up in the pocket?

We'll resolve what "warping all timelines" means, in the second post.

And he guided them each time just like how he did in Volume 3. He outright states this.

If things didn't exist to go against volume 4 then I doubt I'd have stated anything. I can look at it all I want, but it's still not going to erase when his actual plans were talked about.
Um, the writer outright has Trapper state that he was guiding them, and considering Trapper apparently has nothing better to do than piss off a bunch of kids, then yes, it makes complete sense that he was guiding them everytime. It's not like he was doing it millions of times that would make the process redundant, he was doing it a handful of times so it's perfectly feasible that one person who was sitting there doing nothing would continue sitting there and doing nothing while people traveled through time so he could nudge them.
So yes, I think that's exactly what the writer intended, and then Keith Giffen forgot to mention that detail in his recap.
EDIT: I also don't believe the writer's intention was meant to mean that "all timelines" = every universe ever for that matter.

It is shown outright that Trapper needed to nudge them into the universe. Accompanied by him stating that he guided everyone each time... no actually:
"Ever since you dared attempt a journey through time, I have guided you - steering you through the possibilities to a little corner of reality I kept waiting..."
*Flashback panel pointing out the first time they traveled to meet the universe*

And is that not exactly what they did? Were they not steered to a little corner of reality a different time travel opportunity? Well let's look:

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0007.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0008.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0009.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0010.jpg

Yes, that's exactly what happened. And that covers two different times he actively guided them. Confirmed.

But considering he says "Each time" that he sent them there - and we know how they got there - then that heavily implies if not outright states that he did it every single time.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_38__0017.jpg

But considering we have confirmation that Time Trapper was nudging them there after he supposedly "warped all timelines", then that again brings up the question of what exactly that could possibly mean. The only possible explanation I can think of is that he put it there in the first place, and that allowed him to nudge anyone to enter there.

So again, how impressive can this feat possibly be?

Even if he did indeed warp all timelines without nudging, all he did was make it so that time travel to one universe ended up making you go to another. I don't exactly understand how impressive this is even if you ignore the context of it.

Originally posted by operator616
I think you're misinterpreting the scan. And i honestly don't understand how it can confuse you at this point.

Whenever the "time barrier" is broken (and directed at Superboy's era), the Legion will end up in the pocket universe instead, not in the actual past era of the real universe. Because if they actually did travel back in time (which would bring them to the real, and not the pocket, universe), they wouldn't have found Superboy, because Superboy never existed to begin with (because of Bryne rebooting Superman's origins after COIE).

So basically, Time Trapper manipulated all timelines so that, whatever time period it may be, whether it is 30th, 40th, 50th, or even 10th (and specifically directed at Superboy's time era) they (mostly the legion, because they were the ones who mostly visited Superboy's time era) end up in Trapper's pocket dimension.

Which has a strong indication that time, or timelines actually had nothing to do with it. Which would make it a soft retcon if so.

It turns into dimensional hopping at that point if taken literally.

Maybe I'm off base here, but the wordplay of this seems askew in the whole "timeline aspect".

Originally posted by operator616
Ok, he was near death, but not actually dead, doesn't change my point though.

Yes, he was "weakened", i merely clarified just how weakened he is. Near death, is how weakened he was. Important detail, imo.

Im not putting him on multi-eternity's level. I specifically said that id put him on this level going by his highest showing (which is warping the multiverse), but then i clarified that on average (which is the one which actually counts) he is above Galactus and below regular Eternity.

Ok, i get what you were saying, but Mon-el semi-killing a near-death Trapper, doesn't diminish his status, in any way. I mean, i could get into his low showings if you want, because those would diminish him if anything, but certainly not the mon-el instance.

K he was weakened, but also weakened. Doesn't change my point.

So you're not putting him on multi Eternity's level, but going specifically by highest showings you're putting him on Multi Eternity's level... so in effect, you'd like to put him on Multi Eternity's level going specifically by the wording of him "warping all timelines"? Which is my ENTIRE ISSUE WITH THE FEAT
And he's above Galactus based on... let me guess, warping all timelines?

Good for you. It was merely a funny thing to mention to Mr Master. We can discuss more of why I brought it up in future posts however. Maybe the "point" will make sense to you then.

By all means bring up Trapper's low showings. I know it's killing you now that you mentioned it. I'm not sure how that hurts me however, but yeah. Do it.

Originally posted by operator616
No he didn't. He manipulated all time eras so that whenever a certain timelines is directed at Superboy's era it automatically sends he/she/it to his pocket.

Very much so. Because the Legion continuity was never rebooted after COIE. Here's Legion v3 referencing Adventure Comics #352 (literally two issues after the particular scan i posted):

http://i.imgur.com/q0dtRYL.jpg?1

I already showed you Superman v2 #8 scan directly referencing Adventure Comics #247, all those are in continuity and nothing has changed. They all have to fit somehow. And im telling you how they can fit: Time Trapper. Which also makes sense given that he's behind the whole mess. He's try it before Pre-Zero Hour. An issue of Post-ZH LOSH says that which ended in damaging reality:

http://i.imgur.com/mkMPrIY.jpg

But more importantly, when you ask if all this applies.....yes, it should apply by default. Since it was established that nobody knew of this pocket until the crisis, then every single being who traveled to Superboy's era, was manipulated by the Trapper by default. That would mean that the Legion were not specifically targeted, because they weren't the only ones. I already gave an example and i could give more.

So what im trying to say is, "warping all timelines" wasn't just what you'd translate to "diverting Legion's path into the pocket", it'd be manipulating every single being/event, from all kinds of timelines who were aiming at Superboy's era.

So let me get this straight...

You're using a scan from Supergirl merely existing in a different panel and different city than Superboy way before any of this all the way back in 1966, which we naturally retroactively place her in the pocket universe. And your proof for this being completely static canon that is totally not a continuity error that Legion never covered, is that Legion referenced a comic 2 issues after the comic you brought up? But not the comic itself? And this naturally means that Time Trapper was manipulating entire timelines because the Legion comics referenced a comic 2 issues later? Even though Time Trapper was never attributed to have done anything with Supergirl?

Um... that sounds like complete and utter nonsense to me. Like holy shit are you reaching for the stars here. The funny part is that your explanation explains the state of the timeline in a series where you're trying to pass off facts.

If you didn't have your second last paragraph here, I would have simply laughed at your post and moved on.

However, while that makes sense. Your inability to have it reference the actual comic brings forth questions of Supergirl being canon in the first place.
And even if it was, it's as easily explained that Trapper also had a Supergirl in his Pocket Universe somehow, since he created the universe. Or do you somehow figure that very very loosely connecting dots and coming to the conclusion that he was manipulating whole timelines and that SOMEHOW explains Supergirl's existence there is a more likable valid approach than just assuming he "created" her?

Although the answer to your last part is easily explained that he would have simply done the same to Supergirl as he did to Legion. IE, nudged them to his reality. If that indeed wasn't retroactively a "new" character.

There are many explanations for it. It doesn't have to be Time Trapper manipulating a timeline to somehow place Supergirl in it, and this is easily explained that it's complete canon because PC Supergirl was erased and an issue 2 issues later was referenced.

And I haven't read the arc where your original panels came from, but did Supergirl and Superman actually meet in that book in the pocket universe? And if not, could it not be construed as retroactively being a different universe?

Basically, your post does nothing to convince since he could have simply nudged her there as well. Adding in characters doesn't widen the influence when he could have accomplished the same thing he did to Legion.

Or it was a continuity error that never got addressed and never will.

Originally posted by operator616
Yes, he wasn't weakened, at least not that we're aware of.

That's not exactly true. That was only LOSH v4, and in the Pre-ZH period. Only. And it kind of changes. An issue of AoS outright says that the real crux crux of his scheme is to actually destroy the Legion:

http://i.imgur.com/uC9eE26.jpg?1

Also, in the Pre-Crisis era, Time Trapper never particularly cared about Mordru at all, i don't remember him even mentioning Mordru at any point in time.

Yeah, but it was outright stated that whoever wins, will mean the universe is finished, universe meaning the whole timestream, all timelines. Not that bad of a showing.

But again, im not trying to imply that Time Trapper is always portrayed as being a multiversal power. Just on that one occasion, he was. He has a multiversal feat, that doesn't mean it will take a multiversal power to beat him, i said he's below Eternity and above Galactus (normal) on average.

OK. That changes literally nothing, except the fact that you found a scan you wanted to share. His main concern is to get rid of Mordru. He went through many hoops to try and accomplish this. Which goes against Mordru being a minor power compared to him. Do you not agree?
Yes his underlying goal and perhaps true motive is to get rid of Legion, but he wants to use them to help get rid of Mordru first. Like almost his entire history was about getting rid of Mordru. Mordru being called a minor deity undermines that history, and isn't the be all end all argument stopper.

Well considering his entire history has been retroactively tied to stopping Mordru, PC is irrelevant. Even his Time Master persona had been tied to it. Basically Mordru is very important in TT's history, and suddenly throwing Mordru under the bus is dumb.
And this is Mr M's whole issue with it. If Mordru was such a minor power, then why would TT go through such a ridiculous series of events to "stop" him?

I'm not saying it's a bad showing. I'm saying that Mordru is on TT's level, as indicated by TT's history and a stalemate.
Although, where was it stated that all timelines were going to get destroyed as a result? Or is this on those "Universe = Multiverse" things where random comics with no correlation are brought up? If that's the case, then don't bother. Unless it has a statement showing Mordru/TT were going to end all timelines, then don't bother please.

On average without him warping all timelines, would you place him above Galactus? And where would you rank him in relation to Odin if "warping all timelines" was never stated?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

1. And he guided them each time just like how he did in Volume 3. He outright states this.

2. I also don't believe the writer's intention was meant to mean that "all timelines" = every universe ever for that matter.

3. By all means bring up Trapper's low showings.

there isn't much need to elaborate beyond those few points--though in his own bran-ish way he has done so very clearly. regardless, as i said, i agree with him for these EXACT reasons.

well, and this...

You're using a scan from Supergirl merely existing in a different panel and different city than Superboy way before any of this all the way back in 1966, which we naturally retroactively place her in the pocket universe. And your proof for this being completely static canon that is totally not a continuity error that Legion never covered, is that Legion referenced a comic 2 issues after the comic you brought up? But not the comic itself? And this naturally means that Time Trapper was manipulating entire timelines because the Legion comics referenced a comic 2 issues later? Even though Time Trapper was never attributed to have done anything with Supergirl?

Um... that sounds like complete and utter nonsense to me. Like holy shit are you reaching for the stars here. The funny part is that your explanation explains the state of the timeline in a series where you're trying to pass off facts.

but it's the first 2 points that immediately had me questioning the whole power level being discussed here. factoring in the....alternative viewpoint on the feat being discussed, and knowing some of his lesser showings, i think he's being placed too high on the cosmic scale in this case. pretty sure bran has hinted at some of those lesser showings, but has refrained from posting them as yet. still, they must be used to build an entire view of the character and are another reason i think he's being over-rated in this thread.

There's more I want to discuss about the Supergirl/Adventure Comics thing, but I'll wait for Op. I have a strong feeling he's going to touch on some things I want him to touch on.

But this whole Multiversal thing seems forced, not by the comics mind you. The guy's on Mordru's level, which isn't bad, but trying to turn that into some abstract thing seems wrong to me. Not to say he couldn't possibly be above Odin, but there's not too much putting him way beyond the realm of Odin outside vague statements. Maybe that's just my inexperience with the character, but I just can't see him being elevated that much.

Originally posted by abhilegend
His feats are beyond Odin's feats and he's an avatar of entropy. He can stalemate Infinite Man in raw power who derives his power from every point of time and space.

http://i.imgur.com/bphYjk5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/U327JIt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/OEg7EVn.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hI189qq.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SyYjkST.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/tNE2AMb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HTfHUxy.jpg

And he returned even from one place which totally contradicts his existence aka the birth of universe.

That's better than anything Odin has done against an abstract. He has also casually stopped the crisis wave from destroying the pocket universe which was an unprecedented feat. So he has better feats than Odin in just two dozen or such showings.

Not anything I've seen so far.

While I doubt that you aren't leaving out any context, I don't know why anything about that fight would be beyond Odin or his feats?

Returning from the beginning of time is better than anything Odin has done? What?

Why do you think saving his slice of space from a temporal rewrite is beyond Odin exactly? The All-Father himself has rewrote reality and turned back time.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Bran got owned.

Originally posted by leonidas
there isn't much need to elaborate beyond those few points--though in his own bran-ish way he has done so very clearly.

Anyways, I'm enjoying this thread. Wall of text be damned!!

Stuck at work anyway..
🙁