Time Trapper Vs Odin

Originally posted by leonidas

there isn't much need to elaborate beyond those few points--though in his own bran-ish way he has done so very clearly. regardless, as i said, i agree with him for these EXACT reasons.

well, and this...

but it's the first 2 points that immediately had me questioning the whole power level being discussed here. factoring in the....alternative viewpoint on the feat being discussed, and knowing some of his lesser showings, i think he's being placed too high on the cosmic scale in this case. pretty sure bran has hinted at some of those lesser showings, but has refrained from posting them as yet. still, they must be used to build an entire view of the character and are another reason i think he's being over-rated in this thread.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Though I can see why my post would be taken the way Op took it, but that wasn't my intention (hopefully I expanded enough on the difference between the two). Op will respond. I will respond. Its just the way we are. Round and round until one gets bored. The board loses, and no winner between Odin/Trapper is decided. Though it will give me some brain stimulation in the process.

Though I hope he responds soon, because I think I'm going to work today, and I'll be back in probably a week if so. For some reason every comic day, but at least it wasn't the morning this time.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
It isn't irrelevant because it blatantly shows how they actually get to the pocket dimension. And I'm not saying it's him "manipulating all timelines", I'm saying that that what happened in volume 4 has actually been shown as to how it was accomplished, without the "warped all timelines" part. How they get to the pocket universe has been vividly shown, and it has nothing do with some sort of permanent effect. The only possible explanation is that he placed it in a place accessible to any time traveler, which while impressive, isn't exactly some multiversal feat.

And he guided them each time just like how he did in Volume 3. He outright states this.
If things didn't exist to go against volume 4 then I doubt I'd have stated anything. I can look at it all I want, but it's still not going to erase when his actual plans were talked about.
Um, the writer outright has Trapper state that he was guiding them, and considering Trapper apparently has nothing better to do than piss off a bunch of kids, then yes, it makes complete sense that he was guiding them everytime. It's not like he was doing it millions of times that would make the process redundant, he was doing it a handful of times so it's perfectly feasible that one person who was sitting there doing nothing would continue sitting there and doing nothing while people traveled through time so he could nudge them.
So yes, I think that's exactly what the writer intended, and then Keith Giffen forgot to mention that detail in his recap.
EDIT: I also don't believe the writer's intention was meant to mean that "all timelines" = every universe ever for that matter.

It is shown outright that Trapper needed to nudge them into the universe. Accompanied by him stating that he guided everyone each time... no actually:
"Ever since you dared attempt a journey through time, I have [b]guided you - steering you through the possibilities to a little corner of reality I kept waiting..."
*Flashback panel pointing out the first time they traveled to meet the universe*

And is that not exactly what they did? Were they not steered to a little corner of reality a different time travel opportunity? Well let's look:

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0007.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0008.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0009.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0010.jpg

Yes, that's exactly what happened. And that covers two different times he actively guided them. Confirmed.

But considering he says "Each time" that he sent them there - and we know how they got there - then that heavily implies if not outright states that he did it every single time.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_38__0017.jpg

But considering we have confirmation that Time Trapper was nudging them there after he supposedly "warped all timelines", then that again brings up the question of what exactly that could possibly mean. The only possible explanation I can think of is that he put it there in the first place, and that allowed him to nudge anyone to enter there.

So again, how impressive can this feat possibly be?

Even if he did indeed warp all timelines without nudging, all he did was make it so that time travel to one universe ended up making you go to another. I don't exactly understand how impressive this is even if you ignore the context of it.
[/B]

You didn't get my point. I already explained why it's irrelevant and you didn't counter it. You basically restated what you said. The reason why it had no "permanent effect" like it had all those prior times, is because the Crisis time distortions weakened it, understand? Before COIE there was never such a significant event which would affect the time stream in such a way as to weaken Trapper's manipulation of the timelines. I mean, how the hell do you think this was all revealed in the first place? Because that's how, Crisis time distortions. Cosmic Boy and Night Girl got to that era because of those distortions:

http://i.imgur.com/qoLSVTD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/B2FiNA7.jpg

Same thing happened in Booster Gold, but there was never confusion, since Superman didn't appear in that instance (unlike in Cosmic Boy, where Rokk confronts Superman, and is surprised when he doesn't recognize him). What you have to understand from all this, is that the crisis basically nullified Trapper's permanent hold on the timelines. Do you get why i think it's irrelevant, now?

Yes, and i fail to see how Trapper "guiding them" disproves of his manipulating the timelines permanently. From what i understood of it, it's saying that by manipulating the timelines permanently, the Trapper guides them (since, after all, he is behind this manipulation and no one other) into the pocket universe each and every time. Neither does Time Trapper saying that he guided them ever since (referring to the first time), because that also can be easily explained that every since the first time the Legion went to the past, his permanent manipulation of the timelines was already in effect. Nothing contradictory. Not even one bit.

At this point, you're not gonna change your mind, you'll keep saying that each time the Trapper guided the Legionnaires (and other time travelers seeking Superboy's era) personally, while i am going to say it had a permanent effect. Although just so you know, i say this because there isn't any proof that the Trapper each and every time guided them personally. I already explained what happened in LOSH v3. This is what makes sense to me.

Except for the fact that he did do it a million times? but perhaps not in the sense you're thinking of. Legion didn't exactly time travel to Superboy's era to get him to help them in the 30th century every time, but rather they used a device with which to call call him with (here's an example from Superboy #197):

http://i.imgur.com/2gnMSWg.jpg

And he'll break the time barrier to arrive to their era. Which begs the question: This Signaler which the Legion used was used a hundred times, and considering it was meant to be sent to a past era, according to the retcon it would mean it was diverted to the pocket dimension.....so that means Time Trapper intervened every time to divert this pathetic device? LOL, seems legit, right? That's why i asked if you actually believe the writer intended for the Time Trapper to intervene every single time to divert their path. I think we both know that it's not the case, but rather manipulating them permanently seems like it makes more sense.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

Maybe, but I'm more fixated on him blatantly stating that they weren't trave[b]ling through time at all. If he had used the word "traveled", I would have never brought it up. But traveling indicates the process taken. IE, traveling through time and the way they did it hints at them not traveling through the timestream.

Which has a strong indication that time, or timelines actually had nothing to do with it. Which would make it a soft retcon if so.

It turns into dimensional hopping at that point if taken literally.

Maybe I'm off base here, but the wordplay of this seems askew in the whole "timeline aspect".
[/B]

Sorry, but if there's one thing im sure you're wrong in, it's this one. It doesn't seem confusing at all to me, it fits perfectly imo, with what we've been told.

the Legion did travel through the timestream but only partially. Whenever they enter the timestream and aim at Superboy's era, the timestream is warped in a way to guide them to the pocket reality.

And that's where the "warping" part comes in. It may not make sense that whenever when travels through time, it ends up in a pocket universe, but that's exactly what the warping process did: It warped all timelines in a way that it diverted to a pocket dimension.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

K he was weakened, but also weakened. Doesn't change my point.

So you're not putting him on multi Eternity's level, but going specifically by highest showings you're putting him on Multi Eternity's level... so in effect, you'd like to put him on Multi Eternity's level going specifically by the wording of him "warping all timelines"? Which is my ENTIRE ISSUE WITH THE FEAT
And he's above Galactus based on... let me guess, warping all timelines?

Good for you. It was merely a funny thing to mention to Mr Master. We can discuss more of why I brought it up in future posts however. Maybe the "point" will make sense to you then.

By all means bring up Trapper's low showings. I know it's killing you now that you mentioned it. I'm not sure how that hurts me however, but yeah. Do it.

You can be as sarcastic as you want. You know as well as i do that mentioning he was near death rather than weakened, is a relevant thing to add. In the meantime though, try to see how Mon-el did against a non-near death Time Trapper in v3:

http://i.imgur.com/40Gh4Zs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/V5ZT2DT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/eZT7loy.jpg

Yes, continue with the sarcasm. I was merely explaining my full view on the character, perhaps my wording is not that very good (english is not my first language, after all), because i said that going by his highest showing id put him on multi-Eternity's level, but on average (which is the one which i assume people count on) i put him below regular/universal Eternity, yeah, and go ahead and use that to detect some flaw in my argument and make fun of it. Continue if it makes you feel any better, please. Because i can't possible fathom why you'd continue this when ive established what i think of him on average. God knows why, you specifically have to cling into what i think of him in his highest showing and not the average and use that against me. Sure, whatever you say.

Um, "it's killing me"? Lol, i already said before in this very thread that he has quite an amount of low showing, hence my rankings. And now you say that "it's killing me"...sure thing. The point i was trying to make is that there are many low showings to pick from, rather than trying to make it seem like Mon-el "killing" a near-death Trapper like a funny showing. That was my point. But since you asked, ill answer:

he's suffered defeats. In Zero Hour #1, He was defeated by Parallax (ZHP). At one point, in an issue of Superboy, he was struggling with Karate Kid ( a human albeit one with retarded super-human feats, even herald-level ones), Chameleon Boy, Sun Boy. His time-powers, from what i recall, were also defied by Superman in a bronze age Action Comics arc. And Post-Zero Hour Time Trapper's time powers were also defied by when Lori gained the H-dial in an issue of Legionnaires v1. Also got beaten by a couple of Legion members in LO3W.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Nope. He had to guide them, as has been explained in the comics.

So let me get this straight...

You're using a scan from Supergirl merely existing in a different panel and different city than Superboy way before any of this all the way back in 1966, which we naturally retroactively place her in the pocket universe. And your proof for this being completely static canon that is totally not a continuity error that Legion never covered, is that Legion referenced a comic 2 issues after the comic you brought up? But not the comic itself? And this naturally means that Time Trapper was manipulating entire timelines because the Legion comics referenced a comic 2 issues later? Even though Time Trapper was never attributed to have done anything with Supergirl?

Um... that sounds like complete and utter nonsense to me. Like holy shit are you reaching for the stars here. The funny part is that your explanation explains the state of the timeline in a series where you're trying to pass off facts.

If you didn't have your second last paragraph here, I would have simply laughed at your post and moved on.

However, while that makes sense. Your inability to have it reference the actual comic brings forth questions of Supergirl being canon in the first place.
And even if it was, it's as easily explained that Trapper also had a Supergirl in his Pocket Universe somehow, since he created the universe. Or do you somehow figure that very very loosely connecting dots and coming to the conclusion that he was manipulating whole timelines and that [b]SOMEHOW explains Supergirl's existence there is a more likable valid approach than just assuming he "created" her?

Although the answer to your last part is easily explained that he would have simply done the same to Supergirl as he did to Legion. IE, nudged them to his reality. If that indeed wasn't retroactively a "new" character.

There are many explanations for it. It doesn't have to be Time Trapper manipulating a timeline to somehow place Supergirl in it, and this is easily explained that it's complete canon because PC Supergirl was erased and an issue 2 issues later was referenced.

And I haven't read the arc where your original panels came from, but did Supergirl and Superman actually meet in that book in the pocket universe? And if not, could it not be construed as retroactively being a different universe?

Basically, your post does nothing to convince since he could have simply nudged her there as well. Adding in characters doesn't widen the influence when he could have accomplished the same thing he did to Legion.

Or it was a continuity error that never got addressed and never will.
[/B]

We'll see. Read my first reply, it should confirm that he didn't.

What? Lol, and you think im the one talking nonsense, here? Ok, first of all, you do realize that i never ever said that Supergirl (be sure to understand that we aren't talking about Matrix here) is part of Time Trapper's pocket, right? Well, that would be not only outright stupid to say but disproven on panel. Adventures of Superman #444, confirms that he was the only super-hero there, originally:

http://i.imgur.com/NzdeeWJ.jpg

I wasn't using the Adventure Comcis scan to say that she's part of Time Trapper, but rather that she was part of Legion's continuity and according to her retcon, it makes no sense to include her given that she literally would know Superboy's future because she experienced it firsthand in Superman's era. And considering Superboy was actually an alternate version of Superman and the actual Superman as an adult, it makes all of Supergirl/Superboy appearances contradictory as shit. Nevertheless, the Legion post-crisis continuity decided to acknowledge her. So what im saying is: When Time Trapper made his pocket, he could have altered the timelines so that Supergirl would come to think of Superboy as Superman, given that Supergirl is directly associated with Superboy, whom Time Trapper created. Get it?

I know i confused you with the Adventure Comics reference, and that's probably my fault, but i should clarify: The main reason why i posted that LOSH v3 scan referencing Adventure Comics #352 isn't to show a canonicity of Adventure Comics #350 (which i happened to post a scan of in my previous post), no, it was merely to confirm that all their later 1950s, and 60s adventures were canon and thus have to somehow fit in coninuity. It just happened that the reference to the adventure comic and the one i provided for Supergirl were close, hence why i tried to associate them, but forget that, i only added confusion. Point is for that scan, is that their early adventures are canon.

However, I love the part with my "inability" to reference the actual comic. That genuinely gave me a good laugh. Because i wasn't trying to do it in the first place. Lol. If i wanted to post a reference for Supergirl, i proabably would have post it this one from that same volume (v3):

http://i.imgur.com/YqClpE4.jpg

that's why i said the Legion continuity "acknowledged" her, but you didn't pay attention to it, or perhaps didn't believe me, i don't know. If you want anything posted, just ask.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

Exactly. So I can't fathom how him being weakened in the Mon-El example is relevant to him being scurred of Mordru.

OK. That changes literally nothing, except the fact that you found a scan you wanted to share. His main concern is to get rid of Mordru. He went through many hoops to try and accomplish this. Which goes against Mordru being a minor power compared to him. Do you not agree?
Yes his underlying goal and perhaps true motive is to get rid of Legion, but he wants to use them to help get rid of Mordru first. Like almost his entire history was about getting rid of Mordru. Mordru being called a minor deity undermines that history, and isn't the be all end all argument stopper.

Well considering his entire history has been retroactively tied to stopping Mordru, PC is irrelevant. Even his Time Master persona had been tied to it. Basically Mordru is very important in TT's history, and suddenly throwing Mordru under the bus is dumb.
And this is Mr M's whole issue with it. If Mordru was such a minor power, then why would TT go through such a ridiculous series of events to "stop" him?

I'm not saying it's a bad showing. I'm saying that Mordru is on TT's level, as indicated by TT's history and a stalemate.
Although, where was it stated that all timelines were going to get destroyed as a result? Or is this on those "Universe = Multiverse" things where random comics with no correlation are brought up? If that's the case, then don't bother. Unless it has a statement showing Mordru/TT were going to end all timelines, then don't bother please.

On average without him warping all timelines, would you place him above Galactus? And where would you rank him in relation to Odin if "warping all timelines" was never stated?

It's relevant because it was in Legion v4. And guess what? In Legion v4 he was weakened.

Yeah, sure thing. "just a scan i wanna share". Which utterly contradicts your point. Anyway, i already told you that the Mordru was centered in LOSH v4. While the scan i posted is from Adventures of Superman #444, which was at the same time period as LOSH v3 #50 (and until this point, he hadn't to do anything with Mordru), where Time Trapper got defeated by Infinite Man, weakened to a point he hid inside Mon-el, and then there was a 5 year gap between the end of LOSH v3 and LOSH v4, where the Trapper reappeared and Mordru was revealed to rule the universe. Get it? So that was only in LOSH v4 where the Trapper was weakened.
Of course he wanted to get rid of the Legion, that was his main concern in the Pre-Crisis days, without having anything to do with Mordru at all. It wasn't until later, it was followed up a few years after the crisis, until in v4 the whole Mordru mess came. Get it?

However, let's try a different approach, to Mordru/Time Trapper comparison (well, apart from calling Mordru a minor power): Did you read the End of An Era arc (which was part of Zero Hour)? Remember how Infinite Man's power quite literally dwarfed Mordru's? Same Infinite Man who got stalemated by the Time Trapper? Any particular thoughts you wanna share on this?

"The Time Master" persona is completely irrelevant. Because firstly the canonicity of Super friends #17 is questionable to say the least, but most importantly he was considered a controller in that story. And Legionnaires Three retconned all of Time Trapper's appearances as the controller as being an imposer rather than the real time trapper himself. Same thing happened in the famous "Great Darkness Saga".

You're not even following you're own points. the Legion annual, which you indirectly referred to, was a confrontation between Glorith and Mordru. Not TT and Mordru. I mean, you're the one who made this point to begin with. Pay attention.

Without warping the timelines, id put him as an equal. Since he casually created pocket universes; able to summon infinite versions of the LOSH, even with PC Superboy; being the embodiment of entropy, being beyond the whole freaking multiverse. Those are pretty cool feats, but eh, i guess the low showings balance those out, which is why i could see Galactus winning against him as 50% of the time (that's of course, if we're to ignore the timelines warping, which i personally don't).

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

that wasn't my intention (hopefully I expanded enough on the difference between the two).

Originally posted by leonidas
there isn't much need to elaborate beyond those few points--though in his own bran-ish way he has done so very clearly. regardless, as i said, i agree with him for these EXACT reasons.

well, and this...

but it's the first 2 points that immediately had me questioning the whole power level being discussed here. factoring in the....alternative viewpoint on the feat being discussed, and knowing some of his lesser showings, i think he's being placed too high on the cosmic scale in this case. pretty sure bran has hinted at some of those lesser showings, but has refrained from posting them as yet. still, they must be used to build an entire view of the character and are another reason i think he's being over-rated in this thread.

Im surprised (and a bit disappointed, tbh, and im not kidding) the confusion regarding the v3 scene. There shouldn't be any confusion about it. It's pretty simple, really. The Crisis nullified/weakened Time Trapper's manipulation of the timelines. Which is what led to pocket's discovery. That's why he specifically guided them in that instance. I emphasized on this point. I mean, this is the whole point of the arc after all. But whatever.

The supergirl part was completely misinterpreted too.

My next reply would include more examples of how TT could have manipulated the timelines. Just a heads up (supergirl is just one example, as i mentioned). In the meantime though, im going to sleep. Because of KMC debating, i have only 5 1/2 hours left to sleep.

I'll be back in a couple of days. I tried to fit a reply in, but yeah, no time.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Not anything I've seen so far.

While I doubt that you aren't leaving out any context, I don't know why anything about that fight would be beyond Odin or his feats?

Returning from the beginning of time is better than anything Odin has done? What?

Why do you think saving his slice of space from a temporal rewrite is beyond Odin exactly? The All-Father himself has rewrote reality and turned back time.

When was the last time Odin stalemated a being powered by the whole of time and space?

Where Trapper's whole existence is contradicted? Yes.

Because nobody else was able to stop the antimatter wave from crisis. And it was a whole universe.

Originally posted by abhilegend
You could see everything and you'll be still saying Odin wins. You're rage.

When was the last time Odin stalemated a being powered by the whole of time and space?

Where Trapper's whole existence is contradicted? Yes.

Because nobody else was able to stop the antimatter wave from crisis. And it was a whole universe.

We all have your preconceived ideas and bias, but let's not pretend you aren't by the far the most guilty of this sin.

Are you saying Infinite Man has the power of the Multiverse? I must have missed that description of his power. Not that Multiversal level power is beyond Odin (At his best).

So, Time Trapper has a better feat because he has a huge and glaring weakness? 😬

Odin unfortunately does not have a polar opposite that can end him so efficiently. Although Odin's doppleganger in the Dark Gods easily held off entropic collapse of his Universe so there's that.

This is where words are important. You are saying he STOPPED it. Is that what happened or did he hide/protect this Universe from the wave? There is a large difference. The former would not be something I'm sure Odin could do. The latter? Why not.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
We all have your preconceived ideas and bias, but let's not pretend you aren't by the far the most guilty of this sin.

This is where words are important. You are saying he STOPPED it. Is that what happened or did he hide/protect this Universe from the wave? There is a large difference. The former would not be something I'm sure Odin could do. The latter? Why not.

And Odin would be ****ed in the ass by Antimatter wave from crisis.

Originally posted by leonidas
his own bran-ish way

Bran vs Opr is the next Master vs GS.

Odin wins. It's amazing to me that only TT's highest-of-high feats have been mentioned in this thread, and not his slew of lower-end showings.

Averages, people. Averages.

Originally posted by Galan007
Odin wins. It's amazing to me that only TT's highest-of-high feats have been mentioned in this thread, and not his slew of lower-end showings.

Averages, people. Averages.

But Op "did" mention his low end showings. 😛

Trapper's lower end showings are still better than Odin's low showings though. Abducted by random aliens or ants is far more embarrassing than anything Trapper has.

But we have to take Trapper's average and Odin's highest showings, right?

Originally posted by abhilegend

He stopped it via a device which channeled his power.

And Odin would be ****ed in the ass by Antimatter wave from crisis.

... opr posted some letters page stating it skipped TT cause he exists outside of normal continuity.

But you must have the scans where he "stops" it instead. Post them please.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Scans of TT stopping the Anti-Monitor's anti-matter wave that re-booted DC?

... opr posted some letters page stating it skipped TT cause he exists outside of normal continuity.

But you must have the scans where he "stops" it instead. Post them please.

AM's "anti matter" waves didn't exactly reboot DC. It was by going to the beginning of time (supposedly the only way to change the past, even though there are pre-crisis stories where the past was changed without going back to the very beginning of time), that Anti Monitor erased the multiverse, by preventing Krona's experiment. The 5 Earths/universes which were hidden away by the Monitor (not Anti-Monitor) and Harbinger merged together to form the one single universe with which we know DC Pre-Flashpoint. Some Pre-Crisis stories/events/beings remained the same, others changed (which posed a huge continuity problem).

Those anti matter waves were destroying universes, though. So they're impressive.

It was mentioned several times that the Trapper's device prevented the Anti matter wave from destroying Superboy's world, it was the reason Superboy brought him the Legion (since Trapper offered him to save his world):

http://i.imgur.com/lwlCvSY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/GXh6VCH.jpg

It stopped the Anti Matter wave from destroying his universe.

Originally posted by operator616
AM's "anti matter" waves didn't exactly reboot DC. It was by going to the beginning of time (supposedly the only way to change the past, even though there are pre-crisis stories where the past was changed without going back to the very beginning of time), that Anti Monitor erased the multiverse, by preventing Krona's experiment. The 5 Earths/universes which were hidden away by the Monitor (not Anti-Monitor) and Harbinger merged together to form the one single universe with which we know DC Pre-Flashpoint. Some Pre-Crisis stories/events/beings remained the same, others changed (which posed a huge continuity problem).

Those anti matter waves were destroying universes, though. So they're impressive.

It was mentioned several times that the Trapper's device prevented the Anti matter wave from destroying Superboy's world, it was the reason Superboy brought him the Legion (since Trapper offered him to save his world):

http://i.imgur.com/lwlCvSY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/GXh6VCH.jpg

It stopped the Anti Matter wave from destroying his universe.

Is there proof that those are the same anti-matter waves which are in the process of erasing universes in the crisis?

(in other words, these Two events are happening at the same time?
That Superboy scene takes place while the Anit-Monitor is erasing universes back in the day?)

I don't know much about DC as you probably know, so I'm feeding off of what I'm reading here & there.