Originally posted by FreshestSliceNot sure exactly what you mean by the later half but the former is indeed correct.
Unless it's a movie, nope. TOR:Revan and KotOR II are the same level of canon and are just as valid as each other. No piece of continuity canon can override the other unless it disrupts continuity, things like how a person acts for example, this is why Revan can establish how the Exile acts because her decisions here would decide the rest of the events up until TOR.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I fail to understand how this states Nihilus' drain is the same as others, because according to Traya, it is not."It cannot be taught…it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."
―Kreia (Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II)---meanwhile---
"Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights"
―Knights of the Old Republic Campaign GuideNihilus' technique cannot be taught, yet Traya's can. Traya's is the same as the rest of the Sith's. Traya teaches Nihilus how to expand his unique Force Drain like no ways before, though as just shown, his power is different.
She taught him to hone his abilities
But you can't teach someone the ability from scratch, the way she showed most people it was to dump them on Malachor and let Malachor try to drain them.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not sure exactly what you mean by the later half but the former is indeed correct.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66All the members of the Trayus Academy were likely subjected to the Force Draining effects of Malachor V itself:
I fail to understand how this states Nihilus' drain is the same as others, because according to Traya, it is not."It cannot be taught…it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."
―Kreia (Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II)---meanwhile---
"Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights"
―Knights of the Old Republic Campaign GuideNihilus' technique cannot be taught, yet Traya's can. Traya's is the same as the rest of the Sith's. Traya teaches Nihilus how to expand his unique Force Drain like no ways before, though as just shown, his power is different.
There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface—drowns them in the power of the dark side. It corrupts all life, and it feeds on death.
--Darth Traya/Kreia
Especially considering Revan used the planet to break Jedi:
Revan knew the power of such places… and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others, of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side.
--Darth Traya/Kreia
This is practically confirmed by the Jedi Masters:
What if other Jedi went to war as you did, suffered the same events, and emerged as you did. What if there was a crucible that trained such Jedi to consume and kill?
For you, Malachor was that crucible.
What's worse, is these Sith that we face... I fear that they have learned the lesson of Malachor all too well. It is what allows them to prey on Force users, to become stronger when Force Sensitives are near.
...It is the teaching of these new Sith, to feed on others, on other Force-sensitives. They are symptomatic of the wound in the Force.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66No considering all books written from now on will effectively be G/T canon and be able to override anything in past continuity.
So then a book from 1980 has the same canonical value has a book from 2014? Bullshit.
But in terms of pre-2014, of course. Like, I don't know, the novelization of A New Hope? Or the entire original trilogy for that matter? Good luck retconning that. Or how about Shadows of the Empire? Which blazed a trail for much of the Rebellion era EU?
What is "bullshit" as you so politely put it is an established EU character being trampled on by a book written a few years later by a guy who knows jack squat on the topic and that being OK because its "newer". Because as if being the creators of the characters has any bearing on one's credibility. No, all the matters is that little number on the publishing page, lol.
You are making the assumption that you can only use Force Drain if you walk on Malachor V.
Sith Assassins could have learned different ways, and the normal Force Drain is teachable.
Seemingly, Darth Bane learned the art along with the various rituals in Revan's holocron.
"It is extremely difficult to employ in combat and is derived from the teachings of Zelashiel the Blasphemer in the Holocron of Darth Revan."
―Darth Bane (Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side)
Originally posted by FreshestSliceShe achieved total mastery over the light side of the Force, took down an entire academy of Sith and was considered Kreia's greatest student
The Exile was changed for the purposes of canon from her abilities to the way she acts all to insure that TOR goes the way they planned it. I would argue the Exile from KotOR II would rather kill the Emperor than save Revan, but the Exile in TOR:Revan didn't. Either way, the Exile has always been "average" she's hyped up more than she should be. Her claim to fame were the bonds that she was able to form, not the abilities she could use in KotOR II. If anything, the novel reinforced this. The masters never made it seem like the Exile could do any of those things normally.
That is her claim to fame.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
No considering all books written from now on will effectively be G/T canon and be able to override anything in past continuity.But in terms of pre-2014, of course. Like, I don't know, the novelization of A New Hope? Or the entire original trilogy for that matter? Good luck retconning that. Or how about Shadows of the Empire? Which blazed a trail for much of the Rebellion era EU?
What is "bullshit" as you so politely put it is an established EU character being trampled on by a book written a few years later by a guy who knows jack squat on the topic and that being OK because its "newer". Because as if being the creators of the characters has any bearing on one's credibility. No, all the matters is that little number on the publishing page, lol.
She achieved total mastery over the light side of the Force
Originally posted by DarthAnt66Well, given thought, I think what Traya was talking about is the ability to have Force Drain always on. If you are even a minor wound in the Force you are going to be constantly drawing energy around you, which is what made the Academy's students so frightening, powerful and effective against Jedi - because they didn't even need to zap you, or exert any energy at all, merely by being in your presence they were amped with no detriment on their part.
You are making the assumption that you can only use Force Drain if you walk on Malachor V.
Sith Assassins could have learned different ways, and the normal Force Drain is teachable.
Seemingly, Darth Bane learned the art along with the various rituals in Revan's holocron."It is extremely difficult to employ in combat and is derived from the teachings of Zelashiel the Blasphemer in the Holocron of Darth Revan."
―Darth Bane (Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side)
However in order to force this effect, to force the living force around you to be siphoned into your person, does indeed seem to require a great degree of power. However ultimately its the same thing, one is merely passive, the other is active.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
All we've really seen from these figures is X beating Y etc. but we really haven't seen enough to accurately judge their mastery over Control, Sense and Alter, or rather things like healing, foresight and telekinesis. Simply put while we can acknowledge them as powerful, we can't say quite how powerful, IMO.
You mean other than in the case of the Barsen'thor, who displays all of those abilities at high levels. If you want specific feats I can give them to you. I've played every class and written Respect Threads on 3 of them.
Barsen'thor breaks down a massive meter-thick blast door and tosses a bus-sized chunk of metal with TK on Taris, tanks an explosion that obliterates another blast door to the face, heals a being from near death, blocks a lightsaber with a Force bubble, senses future events from a planet across the galaxy and resists the First Son's telepathy. She's established in most common Force powers.
The Hero of Tython is stated to be superior to the above in combat skills and is able to ragdoll a defeated Vitiate who was still powerful enough to collapse the Dark Temple, capable of blitzing Sith Warriors and dodging a space-laser, resists Sel-Makor's influence in the center of the Dark Heart, is capable of telepathically dominating Tol Braga and resisting Vitiate's mental power etc etc.
Nox casually back-hands Force Lightning, dominates Thanaton with TK and lightning, tanks his Lightning Storm and stops his lightsaber with TK, can shatter rock with lightning even without the ghost-amps, is capable of mind-tricking powerful minds or even groups of Sith and has other legit feats.
The Wrath I'm less versed on in regards to feats but he's still got lots of good ones that I'm sure I coud supply to you if I could be bothered.
But anyway, I don't see how healing and foresight matter much. Unless you're talking about their skills with precognition, but then that's implied by their defeat of high level opponents. I think we can definitely say how powerful based on their combat feats and victories over many of the greatest of the TOR era Jedi and Sith. But as the above illustrates, I'm not just basing their power off of victories, they all have good feats as well.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I don't think the Exile actually did sever Traya from the Force, however clearly somehow they're bond was severed. I think it probably was down to Traya tricking her into thinking she was a Sith Lord i.e. betraying her and that broke the bond
That was basically the theory I proposed as well. 👆
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Anyway, Selenial is correct, the entire planet is a dark side nexus:...The planet was shrouded in a pervasive miasma of dark side energy...
--Taken from Wookieepedia, source from Fate of the Jedi: Ascension.
It unsurprising that you are unfamiliar with this source.
That's like, 3000 years after TOR though. Can it truly be said to have been similarly potent in the time of the Old Republic?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
All Force Drain is the same, Nihilus being a Force Wound only amplifies his powers.
No it isn't. Nihilus' technique is very much a different variation from the common technique, one which cannot be passed on as easily the standard version. It works in a different way, through Force bonds and has different things. It's not even a true drain.
"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes." - Kreia.
No it isn't. Nihilus' technique is very much a different variation from the common technique, one which cannot be passed on as easily the standard version. It works in a different way, through Force bonds and has different things. It's not even a true drain."It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes." - Kreia.
Originally posted by DarthAnt661. I don't ignore new canon, I study it closely and respectful reconcile it will older canon as best I can. I seek continuity.
It's "bullshit" that you ignore newer canon because you don't like it.
You can't just forget about her performance with Darth Nyriss.Source/quote?
It is exactly that performance that we have strived to explain, and we have reached the conclusion that the Jedi Exile was suffering seriously under the effects of the dark side nexus which has known to seriously inhibit, often totally, the abilities of light side Force wielders.
Noting the only reason the Exile would have been able to resist the weight of Malachor, was through her the protection of her Force Wound, a wound that evidently closed shortly after reestablishing the Jedi Order.
2. She achieved Force Enlightement. I still can't post links so I'll just quote the Wookiee article:
Force Enlightenment was a passive/supplementary light side Force power. The most well-known Jedi who used this power frequently was Meetra Surik, who learned it after a significant conversation with Jedi Masters Vrook Lamar, Kavar, and Zez-Kai Ell.
When activated, this power took the Force powers a Jedi was most skilled in, pushing them to the highest degree that the Jedi had previously mastered during his or her routine training. The affected powers that the Jedi Exile used to enlight were Force speed, Force Defend (Force Armor or Force Shield), and Force valor. The end result was an "enlightened" Jedi, having unlocked and harnessed fully the light side of the Force.
Obviously this is in part a game mechanic but its confirmed by canonical sources. And therefore indicates mastery over the light side of the Force.
Originally posted by Nephthys1. I'd welcome it, and I'd love to see those respect threads. However I just see the fact that so many of their feats are game mechanics makes it really difficult to judge their powers. But I encourage you to prove me wrong. I assume this is all in your respect thread? Its difficult to get a good source of info on these characters.
You mean other than in the case of the Barsen'thor, who displays all of those abilities at high levels. If you want specific feats I can give them to you. I've played every class and written Respect Threads on 3 of them.Barsen'thor breaks down a massive meter-thick blast door and tosses a bus-sized chunk of metal with TK on Taris, tanks an explosion that obliterates another blast door to the face, heals a being from near death, blocks a lightsaber with a Force bubble, senses future events from a planet across the galaxy and resists the First Son's telepathy. She's established in most common Force powers.
The Hero of Tython is stated to be superior to the above in combat skills and is able to ragdoll a defeated Vitiate who was still powerful enough to collapse the Dark Temple, capable of blitzing Sith Warriors and dodging a space-laser, resists Sel-Makor's influence in the center of the Dark Heart, is capable of telepathically dominating Tol Braga and resisting Vitiate's mental power etc etc.
Nox casually back-hands Force Lightning, dominates Thanaton with TK and lightning, tanks his Lightning Storm and stops his lightsaber with TK, can shatter rock with lightning even without the ghost-amps, is capable of mind-tricking powerful minds or even groups of Sith and has other legit feats.
The Wrath I'm less versed on in regards to feats but he's still got lots of good ones that I'm sure I coud supply to you if I could be bothered.
But anyway, I don't see how healing and foresight matter much. Unless you're talking about their skills with precognition, but then that's implied by their defeat of high level opponents. I think we can definitely say how powerful based on their combat feats and victories over many of the greatest of the TOR era Jedi and Sith. But as the above illustrates, I'm not just basing their power off of victories, they all have good feats as well.
That was basically the theory I proposed as well. 👆
That's like, 3000 years after TOR though. Can it truly be said to have been similarly potent in the time of the Old Republic?
No it isn't. Nihilus' technique is very much a different variation from the common technique, one which cannot be passed on as easily the standard version. It works in a different way, through Force bonds and has different things. It's not even a true drain.
"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes." - Kreia.
Hmm, the more I read the more you convince me. Maybe I'll make it a personal project to rank them.
2. Seems most likely, slightly weird the game never explained it. I mean Atris actually says that Traya plans to kill herself and in doing so kill you... and then the Exile just kills her lol.
3. Hell yes! Kaas most certainly sees most activity during the TOR era, after this point literally nothing happens, no new temples are built, no knew Sith arrive apart from a bunch of hermits. The creation of the Sith Temple and the various rituals perfomed on the planet made great strides it polluting the planet with the dark side.
Noting that before that it was already a dark side nexus, that is why flora and fauna are all corrupted and its altogether doom and gloom.
4. Have you read my posts since i.e. from the bottom of the prievous page onwards. To summarized the entire academy used the same technique, and the only difference between that and the technique other Sith Lords use is that the students of the Academy could use is passively whereas everyone else had to actively exert themselves. Yet ultimately they are employing the same technique, siphoning one's connection to the Force and draining it.
Has nothing to do with Force Bonds, that only amplifies its power. I mean you can't expect them to make a bond with every Jedi they meet (and kill) or Nihilus to make a happy bond with the planets he devours. And ultimately if you drain someone of the Living Force completely, you sever them from it.
Originally posted by NephthysBane and Zannah surpass Exar Kun? Really?
BTW Legend, my own personal power rankings in regards to your thread are something like this:1. Nihilus
2. Vitiate
3/4/5/6. Hero of Tython
3/4/5/6. Zannah
3/4/5/6. Bane
3/4/5/6. Tulak Hord
7. Exar Kun
8. Malgus
9. Nox
10. Barsen'thor
11. Revan
12. Jadus
13. First Son
14. Ajunta Pall
15. Second Wrath
16. Baras
17. Scourge
18. Satele Shan
19. Karnuss Muur
20. Uliq Qel'Droma
21. Nomi SunriderI'm not counting any of the Dread Masters because **** that noise. Retaining the ability to change my mind in the future of edit the list if I forgot someone or whatever.
Bane doesn't even beat Dooku.
I would class Revan above Malgus.
Other than that *shrug*
Originally posted by Nephthys
They're totally right about Traya only teaching Nihilus how to expand his power. He learned the tech by himself through instinct.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Traya teaches Nihilus how to expand his unique Force Drain like no ways before
Originally posted by Beniboybling
1. I'd welcome it, and I'd love to see those respect threads. However I just see the fact that so many of their feats are game mechanics makes it really difficult to judge their powers. But I encourage you to prove me wrong. I assume this is all in your respect thread? Its difficult to get a good source of info on these characters.Hmm, the more I read the more you convince me. Maybe I'll make it a personal project to rank them.
2. Seems most likely, slightly weird the game never explained it. I mean Atris actually says that Traya plans to kill herself and in doing so kill you... and then the Exile just kills her lol.
3. Hell yes! Kaas most certainly sees most activity during the TOR era, after this point literally nothing happens, no new temples are built, no knew Sith arrive apart from a bunch of hermits. The creation of the Sith Temple and the various rituals perfomed on the planet made great strides it polluting the planet with the dark side.
Noting that before that it was already a dark side nexus, that is why flora and fauna are all corrupted and its altogether doom and gloom.
4. Have you read my posts since i.e. from the bottom of the prievous page onwards. To summarized the entire academy used the same technique, and the only difference between that and the technique other Sith Lords use is that the students of the Academy could use is passively whereas everyone else had to actively exert themselves. Yet ultimately they are employing the same technique, siphoning one's connection to the Force and draining it.
Has nothing to do with Force Bonds, that only amplifies its power. I mean you can't expect them to make a bond with every Jedi they meet (and kill) or Nihilus to make a happy bond with the planets he devours. And ultimately if you drain someone of the Living Force completely, you sever them from it.
1. Ok:
And theres also XSUPREMEXSKILLZ's Second Wrath respect thread.
Most of the feats I mentioned are not clearly laid out, I wrote them in a slightly different format, but I can assure you almost all of them occur in cutscenes or scripted, storied events. The only one that isn't is the Barsen'thor tanking the explosion, but that's needed to move the story along and the questlog confirms that you need to do it. I don't use gameplay.
2. I think Kreia was trying to motivate the Exile to chase her down to Malachor. Just another lie. The Force Bond wouldn't kill her if Kreia died I don't think.
3. But that can't be said for sure. Is it not possible something happened with the collapse of the Empire to create it? Maybe they got desperate and used a powerful ritual. Maybe the Republic massacred them again. Maybe Vitiate died there and the power he absorbed from Nathema was released and his death created a nexus like Sidious' did. Who can say for sure.
Wasn't it Vitiate's experiments that corrupted the planet? I know he created Akure with his power.
4. Oh, are you just talking about the Sith in Kotor 2? I thought you were saying that all Force Drain in star wars was the same technique.
It seems to utilise bonds to me:
"As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely."
This is why Nihilus dominates all around him. He instinctively forms bonds with everyone, siphoning their will and power in the exact same way the Exile does. That's why she's so good at the technique, instinctively and easily able to perform it in the same way she forms bonds. The Council confirms that the Exile's Force bond ability is the true threat she represents.
Or at least that's my impression.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Bane and Zannah surpass Exar Kun? Really?Bane doesn't even beat Dooku.
I would class Revan above Malgus.
Other than that *shrug*
How does he not beat Dooku? He's faster and stronger than Dooku is in lightsaber abilty, his lightning is vastly more powerful, his telekinesis is more devastating in its destructive power and to my knowledge he has greater Force shields.
This is likewise for Exar Kun. The only area I'd say Kun has on Bane is sorcery and the power of his amulet.
Malgus performed better against a more powerful team in Swtor. I don't see Revan force choking 3 members while dueling the 4th.