Lord Vitiate vs Mother Talzin

Originally posted by Nephthys
Normal Dark Council meeting?

Wut?

They were walking into his fortress to try and kill him with an army at their backs.

Memory lapse, not gonna lie I got that entirely wrong.

Can you post the quote so I can refresh mah memory? Much wants for the SWTOR(E)

Also, still don't buy it as proof. Major Dark Side Nexus, his seat of power, huge amounts of prep time.

This is Dathomir, not a Nexus, Talzins home, and he has no prep. She could prep when he can't, because she can kill him from the other side of Dathomir, she doesn't even need to be near him.

"This planet resonates with the dark side of the Force."
―Urai Fen

Dathomir is a nexus, Talzin herself has stated this.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
"This planet resonates with the dark side of the Force."
―Urai Fen

Dathomir is a nexus, Talzin herself has stated this.

They refused to believe me when I said it.

So I'm rollin' with it. 🤣

Originally posted by Selenial
Memory lapse, not gonna lie I got that entirely wrong.

Can you post the quote so I can refresh mah memory? Much wants for the SWTOR(E)

Also, still don't buy it as proof. Major Dark Side Nexus, his seat of power, huge amounts of prep time.

This is Dathomir, not a Nexus, Talzins home, and he has no prep. She could prep when he can't, because she can kill him from the other side of Dathomir, she doesn't even need to be near him.

No problem, I have most of the Vitiate quotes within easy access in the essay Legend sent me about why Vitiate is the most powerful Sith in history.

"During a violent tempest, Darth Lokess called a secret meeting of her eleven fellow Dark Council members. Under the cover of night, the Dark Council met and heard Darth Lokess describe a brilliant and daring plan to overthrow the Sith Emperor, end his relentless exile, and lead the Empire back to war against the Republic. An army of Sith under the command of Darth Lokess were stationed outside the meeting, ready to slay any Dark Council member who refused. But they all agreed to depose the Emperor.

It remains a mystery how the Emperor learned of his council's treachery. He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel. The last member Darth Lokess, disappeared forever, though for some centuries some claimed her screams could be heard from the bowels of the Citadel.

A new council was immediately appointed to replace the traitors. The Emperor had made his point: his will was absolute, and none would oppose him. And though this was not the last time the council would defy the Emperor, his lesson would humble the Empire and its Sith leaders for centuries to come." - (SWTORE, Page 156)

See, that still, in my opinion, shows that they were unprepared.

They wouldn't be expecting him to attack them when they know he's in his throne room, not on the steps 200m away.

I concede that they'd be prepared to attack, likely drawing on the Nexus, but I highly doubt that any of them would be prepared to be attacked, or have their force barriers up.

A flash is just that, no time to react at all, and the Emperor likely wasn't even close when he did it (Inside the citadel) And people don't have force barriers up unless they raise them in combat.

Originally posted by Selenial
They refused to believe me when I said it.

So I'm rollin' with it. 🤣

Originally posted by Selenial
See, that still, in my opinion, shows that they were unprepared.

They wouldn't be expecting him to attack them when they know he's in his throne room, not on the steps 200m away.

I concede that they'd be prepared to attack, likely drawing on the Nexus, but I highly doubt that any of them would be prepared to be attacked, or have their force barriers up.

A flash is just that, no time to react at all, and the Emperor likely wasn't even close when he did it (Inside the citadel) And people don't have force barriers up unless they raise them in combat.

They're marching on his fortress with an army, they have every reason to be cautious of attack. Not just from Vitiate but from his own forces, defenses and Imperial Guards. There are IG's in front of most important buildings, remember, and this the Imperial Palace we're talking about. Frankly I'd be amazed if they got to the palace without any fighting taking place. Plus they all have precognition and enhanced reflexes anyway.

I know you really want Talzin to win, but she just doesn't. His lightning is better than hers, his telepathy is something she seemingly has no answer to, his TK eclipses what she's shown and he's probably a better sorcerer than her as well. If the only way Talzin can win this is by running away on her home turf, then I don't really see how she's better than him. And if it were really that easy, she'd have done it against Sidious.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They're marching on his fortress with an army, they have every reason to be cautious of attack. Not just from Vitiate but from his own forces, defenses and Imperial Guards. There are IG's in front of most important buildings, remember, and this the Imperial Palace we're talking about. Frankly I'd be amazed if they got to the palace without any fighting taking place. Plus they all have precognition and enhanced reflexes anyway.

I know you really want Talzin to win, but she just doesn't. His lightning is better than hers, his telepathy is something she seemingly has no answer to, his TK eclipses what she's shown and he's probably a better sorcerer than her as well. If the only way Talzin can win this is by running away on her home turf, then I don't really see how she's better than him. And if it were really that easy, she'd have done it against Sidious.

I'm not saying she's better, just that she'd win.

She would have done this against Sidious but she sacrificed herself for Maul.

Also, why are we even debating this feat when it won't come in to play?

Just have to say though, you're being horrendously biased. You're saying Vitiate must have great saber skill because of his prowess in the force (lol by the way) despite no feats, but Talzin auto sucks at mind games despite being #3 in her era?

Originally posted by Selenial
I'm not saying she's better, just that she'd win.

She would have done this against Sidious but she sacrificed herself for Maul.

Also, why are we even debating this feat when it won't come in to play?

Just have to say though, you're being horrendously biased. You're saying Vitiate must have great saber skill because of his prowess in the force (lol by the way) despite no feats, but Talzin auto sucks at mind games despite being #3 in her era?

I'm not seeing how she'd win, exactly.

Woulda, coulda, didn't. If it was as easy as you think, she'd have vaporised Grievous after her disappearing act.

You said she'd run away and beat him with prep. So I brought up that Vitiate is a prep god and blah blah.

I don't think I'm the only biased one here. You're obviously pulling for all the powerful female characters, which I can respect because **** Star Wars' shitty gender politics. But still, careful in this here glass house. And I only said Vitiate would be decent, since it's dumb to think that someone as overwhelmingly powerful as him couldn't amp his physical attributes up and kill significantly lesser beings even with a weapon he's not great with. And Talzin is a Nightsister, do they even have telepathy or a way to resist it? Either way, I'm willing to give powerful individuals the benefit of the doubt in areas despite a lack of feats and suggest they'd likely be good in them based on their power. That doesn't translate into "able to take on the best in this area in history". 😬

As far as mental feats goes, the TCW head to head says that Talzin has Zannah-type mind affecting sorcery attacks.

Originally posted by Selenial
1) He was above Dromund Kaas, and had more than ample time to prepare. You do realise he knew they were coming for quite some time, and had the time to gather his power as the Hero of Tython fought the Wrath? Sure, it'd take him a few seconds to build up that kind of power, but you wouldn't Have a few seconds in a duel.

How is being above the planet gonna do him any good? Also, every time someone expects an opponent, does that mean their performance in that confrontation doesn't mean anything? Sidious was expecting Windu in ROTS. None of his saber skills should count then with your logic.

Vitiate did in fact have a few seconds. They started running at him and he charged an FLS attack pretty fast and unleashed attack too devastating even for such a strike team.

2) You people really cherry pick when you want to use arguments, and it pisses me off. First you all say Vitiate had ample time to recover as much as he would need to before facing the HOT as a source for the HOT being powerful, and now that that might be detrimental you decide to change tones?

How about instead we use the argument that the HOT was weaker because she decided to fight through hordes of extra sith to face her love interest, was weak because she was in the Dark Temple and weakened because she'd just fought through hundreds of Sith or Imperial guard?

Vitiate is stated to be weakened by the most greedy ritual ever attempted. Scourge even says that this is the perfect moment to attack. What you think on this doesn't matter when a character so related to the event states something like that.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
As far as mental feats goes, the TCW head to head says that Talzin has Zannah-type mind affecting sorcery attacks.

Zannah is still canon?

No, but one of Talzin's powers was described as basically the same exact thing.