Superman and Thor vs Black Bolt and Etrigan the Demon

Started by Surtur5 pages
Originally posted by bbrem123 [QUOTE=14726034]Originally posted by bbrem123
can some post the scans of supes beating etrigan?

This is my bad here because I was thinking of PreNU. I don't know if Etrigan has even shown up in the Nu.

oh god not another one of these guys ^

Apologies for bringing common sense into the mix, my bad. I'll get rid of it then. Yeah, Blackbolt and Etrigan win this fight. Superman won't use his speed because..well, just because, I guess and Blackbolt is totally durable enough to take hundreds of hits from him even if he had his speed, since it's not like he has ever been hurt by people on the level of Supes, no..never. Not one time.

Originally posted by Surtur
Blackbolt not trying doesn't magically lower his durability, why in gods name would you ever think it would?

Nope, but it's not a part of Supes personality to not use speed, I'm unsure why grasping this concept is so difficult for people. In character, he has no issues against speed. PIS is where the issues come in. To say he won't speedblitz is basically just an attempt to handicap the character..to which then what is the point? What is the point if you have to specifically go out of your way to handicap the guy? To the point where you ignore that his personality has nothing to do with not using speed. He is anti-killing, not anti- super speed.

Nice edit, but still, the point is that Superman almost never uses his speed unless he has to, whereas you seem to be arguing that he'd use it from the start.

That's out of character, imo. And no, it isn't lowballing.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Nice edit, but still, the point is that Superman almost never uses his speed unless he has to, whereas you seem to be arguing that he'd use it from the start.

That's out of character, imo. And no, it isn't lowballing.

He's used it enough to make sure it is a thing he is aware of. It's lowballing to say he won't use it against a guy he knows can kill him with a word. It's not out of character. Show me a single scan of Superman commenting on being afraid to use his speed or otherwise suggesting he doesn't use it on purpose.

Do you have any scan like that?

Also, which is it? One mod says these characters will absolutely use their speed and the other says nope, he won't.

Originally posted by Surtur
He's used it enough to make sure it is a thing he is aware of. It's lowballing to say he won't use it against a guy he knows can kill him with a word. It's not out of character. Show me a single scan of Superman commenting on being afraid to use his speed or otherwise suggesting he doesn't use it on purpose.

Do you have any scan like that?

Also, you need to make up your mind. One mod says these characters will absolutely use their speed and the other says nope, he won't.

I never even remotely implied that Superman is ever afraid to use his speed.

How would he know that Blackbolt can kill him with a word?

You took his words out of context. I know, as I wrote the rules alongside him. They don't forget they have speed.

Originally posted by Surtur

Also, which is it? One mod says these characters will absolutely use their speed and the other says nope, he won't.

Pr is saying he'll use his speed but not at the level of his absolute highest showings from the get go, superman normally fights at a lower level due to mental blocks and not wanting to hurt people more than needed.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I never even remotely implied that Superman is ever afraid to use his speed.

You kinda are, by saying he won't use it even though it says characters fight to full capacity. But you are saying he won't and it's not in character. So it's not in character for him, so what reason would he has to not use it, other then he is for some reason afraid? Do you have any scans of Nu Supes implying anything like this? You don't even need a specific scan, you could tell me the issue number.

How would he know that Blackbolt can kill him with a word?

You took his words out of context. I know, as I wrote the rules alongside him. They don't forget they have speed.

Awfully confused. You claim you wrote the rules, but you seem to be unaware of the basic knowledge one. I'm hoping you aren't telling me Blackbolts scream wouldn't be covered under it.

Also, how am I taking it out of context?

"Superman, Flash, Shazam, Wonder Woman, etc. will all use their speed, period. If you have a problem then go to a pro-Marvel board, or contact Marvel and tell them to give characters speed feats.""

I'm sorry, but what? What out of context? He says they will use their speed, period. Look, if you want to say it's not like that, fine..but there is no way to take that out of context.

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
Pr is saying he'll use his speed but not at the level of his absolute highest showings from the get go, superman normally fights at a lower level due to mental blocks and not wanting to hurt people more than needed.

But that is silly, why wouldn't he go all out when the rules say they fight to full capacity? It's not a character trait for him not to use his speed, it is PIS. Ignoring the fact he doesn't need his full speed to blitz Blackbolt anyways.

But okay, we can totally say Blackbolt wins because Superman has been handicapped merely because he doesn't use his speed all the time.

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
Pr is saying he'll use his speed but not at the level of his absolute highest showings from the get go, superman normally fights at a lower level due to mental blocks and not wanting to hurt people more than needed.

Pr is merely jumping on the awesome DarkSaint bandwagon.

Originally posted by Surtur
This is my bad here because I was thinking of PreNU. I don't know if Etrigan has even shown up in the Nu.

Yeah, he has. No strength feats of yet, really, but loads of BFR feats. He'll just send people to Hell if needs be.


Apologies for bringing common sense into the mix, my bad. I'll get rid of it then. Yeah, Blackbolt and Etrigan win this fight. Superman won't use his speed because..well, just because, I guess and Blackbolt is totally durable enough to take hundreds of hits from him even if he had his speed, since it's not like he has ever been hurt by people on the level of Supes, no..never. Not one time.

And Superman hasn't been hurt by people on Bolt's level, let alone preboot (I know I said DCnU Etrigan had no real strength feats, but you were more familiar with him) Etrigan?

Originally posted by Surtur
It's not a character trait for him not to use his speed, it is PIS.

This is the massive crux of the argument, I feel.

Pr and others (myself included) believe it IS a character trait not to use his speed.

Telling, however, that abhi has not weighed in on this particular debate. He more than anyone has convinced me of the mental blocks Supes always has....

Originally posted by Surtur
You kinda are, by saying he won't use it even though it says characters fight to full capacity. But you are saying he won't and it's not in character. So it's not in character for him, so what reason would he has to not use it, other then he is for some reason afraid? Do you have any scans of Nu Supes implying anything like this? You don't even need a specific scan, you could tell me the issue number.

Awfully confused. You claim you wrote the rules, but you seem to be unaware of the basic knowledge one. I'm hoping you aren't telling me Blackbolts scream wouldn't be covered under it.

Also, how am I taking it out of context?

"Superman, Flash, Shazam, Wonder Woman, etc. will all use their speed, period. If you have a problem then go to a pro-Marvel board, or contact Marvel and tell them to give characters speed feats.""

I'm sorry, but what? What out of context? He says they will use their speed, period. Look, if you want to say it's not like that, fine..but there is no way to take that out of context.

That isn't what I'm saying at all.

If you want the official mod stance on ability and personality, here it is:

Originally posted by Raoul
[B]Clarification of CIS

Ok people, here are the finalised rules as regards PIS, CIS, and everything related to it.

PIS is, as always, off unless the thread starter says it's ON.

CIS, as was said before, is now a more diverse term, but is not as vague as before.

While CIS still exists in the form of characters like Rhino (who are just too stupid to know better), it also exists in one other form.

This is known as Character Inhibited Power. This applies to characters that have intelligence, like the Silver Surfer, Superman, and so on and so forth.

As Bada said:

"It's a self imposed limitation in certain circumstances which there is concern for civilians and buildings for the most part. It's not stupidity, it's a limitation set until the threat exceeds a certain threshold."

What this means is that people like the Surfer and Superman and so on will not use the full extent of their powers if it will endanger civilians. It doesn't, though, mean they will fight like idiots. The character's personality is an integral part of the match and dictates how they will perform. This is the crux of the rules we've come up with. It doesn't come down to powers, it comes down to the man or woman that weilds them.

In accordance with this, several factors come in to play in debates:

The Opponent, Basic Information, the Arena and the Character's Personality and Experience

Those four are key.

Example:

If Martian Manhunter fights say, Juggernaut.

MM doesn't personally know Juggernaut (Opponent). So he has Basic Information. This is categorised as being what the general public would know about the Juggernaut. It goes by averages. If that average man or woman on the street knows that Juggernaut is super strong, then MM knows. The average man or woman doesn't know, however, that the Juggernaut is weak against psionics. J'onn would approach with caution, not knowing whether Juggernaut was in his weight class, and not knowing the full extent of the man's powers.

However. If Martian Manhunter went up against Amazo, he would know to go for broke right at the start, because he KNOWS Amazo (Personality and Experience). He will use his speed, his strength, his shapeshifting. This is because if he knows what it takes to bring down Amazo, or he believes his standard attacks won't work. If J'onn was fighting Juggernaut, there would come a point when he would realise that normal attacks won't work, and would up his game. Any character that doesn't suffer from Rhino-esque stupidity is capable of this. Even with this, though, the Arena comes in to play. If civilians are in danger, J'onn won't shapeshift in to a fire breathing dragon. Juggernaut on the other hand doesn't care, so wouldn't hesitate to toss cars and trucks full of civilians at the Martian.

Examples:

Thor knows he can't out-brawl Hulk, so uses exotic powers sooner than he would against the likes of Superman, as Superman is an unknown to him.

Superman would go all out against Doomsday or Despero because he knows how powerful they are. Against the Hulk, he's going to take a few punches before realising he'll have to use something rather than slugging it out. He won't bathe the street in heat vision either, because there are civilians nearby.

It ALL comes down to the CHARACTER, not the POWERSET. [/B]

And no, the full extent of Blackbolt's scream is not covered under basic knowledge.

Superman would know that Blackbolt has a powerful scream... And that's it. You try telling Superman someone has a powerful attack, and see how many times he doesn't decide to just try and tank it.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This is the massive crux of the argument, I feel.

Pr and others (myself included) believe it IS a character trait not to use his speed.

Telling, however, that abhi has not weighed in on this particular debate. He more than anyone has convinced me of the mental blocks Supes always has....

Superman believes in a fair fight until he's in danger of losing, basically.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Pr is merely jumping on the awesome DarkSaint bandwagon.


Yeah, he has. No strength feats of yet, really, but loads of BFR feats. He'll just send people to Hell if needs be.

And Superman hasn't been hurt by people on Bolt's level, let alone preboot (I know I said DCnU Etrigan had no real strength feats, but you were more familiar with him) Etrigan?

I never said Blackbolt couldn't hurt him if he got the chance to act. Since his whisper can KO the Hulk, he wouldn't even need a full scream.

Originally posted by -Pr-
That isn't what I'm saying at all.

If you want the official mod stance on ability and personality, here it is:

Okay, so then the quote I just posted, that mod was flat out mistaken then, yes? Since it is contradictory and it can't be both ways. You can't say Superman will use his speed period..and then follow it up with "but he totally won't because he doesn't always use it!". Since, then the "he uses it, period" makes no sense whatsoever.

Superman would know that Blackbolt has a powerful scream... And that's it. You try telling Superman someone has a powerful attack, and see how many times he doesn't decide to just try and tank it.

No, he doesn't always try to tank powerful attacks just because..that's hardly something you can say is a part of his character. Purposely tanking powerful attacks could lead to huge collateral damage, etc. Why would Superman want that?

And Blackbolts scream is basic knowledge, but the power level isn't? That makes no sense. How is the scream basic knowledge, but not the power level? The big thing about his scream is how destructive it is, it is odd to suggest the scream itself would be known without that hugely important detail.

Superman believes in a fair fight until he's in danger of losing, basically.

Scans of Superman saying this that make you believe this?

Though at the end of the day then, this comes down to "Blackbolt wins because his opponent doesn't use his full power" which..well, okay.

Originally posted by Surtur
Okay, so then the quote I just posted, that mod was flat out mistaken then, yes? Since it is contradictory and it can't be both ways. You can't say Superman will use his speed period..and then follow it up with "but he totally won't because he doesn't always use it!". Since, then the "he uses it, period" makes no sense whatsoever.

No, he doesn't always try to tank powerful attacks just because..that's hardly something you can say is a part of his character. Purposely tanking powerful attacks could lead to huge collateral damage, etc. Why would Superman want that?

And Blackbolts scream is basic knowledge, but the power level isn't? That makes no sense. How is the scream basic knowledge, but not the power level? The big thing about his scream is how destructive it is, it is odd to suggest the scream itself would be known without that hugely important detail.

Scans of Superman saying this that make you believe this?

Though at the end of the day then, this comes down to "Blackbolt wins because his opponent doesn't use his full power" which..well, okay.

Bada was speaking generally, because far too many people on this board believe that Superman's super-speed is shit. Until we made it a rule, people would flat out say he was slow as shit. So we have to be heavy-handed when it comes to stuff like this. If anything is believed to be ambiguous, then the rules provide clarification.

Superman won't handicap himself, but that doesn't mean that the moment the bell rings, he's going to try and force his fist down Blackbolt's throat.

Most of the time, Superman does try. That's part of his character. He's the actual tank of the Justice League, going by rpg terms. He just puts out a shit-load of DPS too.

I'm not arguing that Blackbolt would win. At all.

Originally posted by Surtur
There is no scan that says "he is fighting at lightspeed". It doesn't mean he can't, since he can move at such speeds, we extrapolate what he can do based on other feats.

If you have a problem with that, DCnU Superman is now incapable of throwing a car into space. After all, I have no scans of him doing it.

Yeah, but basic knowledge means he won't not use his speed..and he isn't always not using speed because he isn't sure if he needs to pull his punches. He's used it enough times to say he'd use it if going to full capacity. Saying he won't is essentially handicapping him merely to give the other team a shot. What then is the point? Okay, so Blackbolt can totally beat a Superman fighting like a moron.

Or hell, let's be generous and say the guy only throws 100 punches before Blackbolt reacts. The guy still isn't durable enough to tank 100 punches from a guy who bench press the planet.

But anyways, what is the point in putting Superman in any fights here if people are going to constantly try to lowball or handicap him? It's weird to me that Superman fights have him being lowballed, while his opponents are being grossly overestimated(Black bolt here, Loki in the other thread..and I'm sure I could find more if I bothered to look).

Is this a thing people have against Superman or is it just characters with high end super speed in general?

It doesn't work like that. We don't hand out abilities unless displayed on panel. So again, can you provide scans backing up your claims. How about this. Black Bolt counters Superman's speed by combating him at 3 times the speed of light.

Originally posted by carver9
It doesn't work like that. We don't hand out abilities unless displayed on panel. So again, can you provide scans backing up your claims. How about this. Black Bolt counters Superman's speed by combating him at 3 times the speed of light.

Shut up, Carver.

Originally posted by Surtur

And Blackbolts scream is basic knowledge, but the power level isn't? That makes no sense. How is the scream basic knowledge, but not the power level? The big thing about his scream is how destructive it is, it is odd to suggest the scream itself would be known without that hugely important detail.

It's powerful, sure. How powerful would you say it was? You seem a pretty knowledgeable guy on comics, on both Marvel and DC - would you have known, for example, all the things that BB's voice can do? You would just know that its powerful. General knowledge is what the general populace of Marvel Earth knows - and all they'd know is that its pretty powerful. Nu Supes would be pretty confident he can tank it.


Scans of Superman saying this that make you believe this?
There are numerous scans of Superman saying or thinking how he's holding back, or WAS holding back etc. Would you take that?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Bada was speaking generally, because far too many people on this board believe that Superman's super-speed is shit. Until we made it a rule, people would flat out say he was slow as shit. So we have to be heavy-handed when it comes to stuff like this. If anything is believed to be ambiguous, then the rules provide clarification.

Superman won't handicap himself, but that doesn't mean that the moment the bell rings, he's going to try and force his fist down Blackbolt's throat.

Most of the time, Superman does try. That's part of his character. He's the actual tank of the Justice League, going by rpg terms. He just puts out a shit-load of DPS too.

I'm not arguing that Blackbolt would win. At all.

I don't know, Nu Superman sure didn't hesitate to choke the hell out of Batman or blindside Captain Marvel...

I don't really keep up with Nu 52, but from the little I've seen, he's ridiculously more aggressive now.

Originally posted by maxivitopowe
Opening blow is likely to be Supes bum rushing Blackbolt, Blackbolt letting out a suprised grunt and sending Supes flying

Originally posted by cdtm
I don't know, Nu Superman sure didn't hesitate to choke the hell out of Batman or blindside Captain Marvel...

I don't really keep up with Nu 52, but from the little I've seen, he's ridiculously more aggressive now.

He also was choking Hal, IIRC. He's more arrogant, but he still doesn't go for the blitz at the very first go (he knew about Marvel, and that he could take a beating).

He's content to tank a shot, then slap someone down.

Originally posted by Surtur
Umm, no, why is this so hard to get? The dude has shown he has lightspeed reflexes, he can move and react at those speeds. He doesn't need a specific feat of throwing 1,000 punches. We can extrapolate from other feats, it's a neat thing we can do. Superman has never picked up a car and thrown it into space, but guess what? He totally can, and why? Going by his other feats, he should be capable of it. Why? He can hold the weight of a planet, and cars weigh less then planets. See what I did there? No on panel feat and yet..we can use other feats to come to that conclusion. Crazy, right?

Sorry, but no, Black Bolt was feeling the hits. He won't be surviving a blitz, sorry if you can't accept that.

Because your argument is applicable to anyone who has ever moved at lightspeed.
And Superman picking up a car is in no way comparable to throwing 1000 punches in the blink of an eye. In fact, if you want that comparison to make sense, you'd have to have Superman throwing more than 1000 punches in a blink of an eye.

And the funny thing is that you're arguing for something here that Superman has never done, while in another thread you're stating that Loki's speed feats don't count because he doesn't have that much of them IYO. How does this work? Does it only count if Superman gets a feat or something?

Good for him. He still wasn't knocked out. He still wasn't blitzed by someone with nanosecond reflexes. And he was still winning. Sorry if you can't accept that your example fails.

And sorry if you can't accept that you don't have any proof.