Originally posted by Emperordmb
1. HoT: Hero stomps this one no question2. Vitiate: his force powers are more varied and potent
3. Vitiate: he could keep the Hero at a distance with his force powers, and his true body is likely a superior conduit for his power,
Even if that was not his real body, and I'm of the mind that it actually was and possibly still is, the Voice already has his full power.
I think the HoT would have more trouble in the situation, they would probably still come out on top. While Vitiate may have more force powers, that doesn't suggest that the HoT can't protect themselves against it, which when they are at full power, they have already experienced.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Even if that was not his real body, and I'm of the mind that it actually was and possibly still is, the Voice already has his full power.I think the HoT would have more trouble in the situation, they would probably still come out on top. While Vitiate may have more force powers, that doesn't suggest that the HoT can't protect themselves against it, which when they are at full power, they have already experienced.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
The voice wields his power, but may not be as adept at channeling it.
In fact, to converse with the Emperor’s Voice is to have an audience with the Emperor himself, whose power and consciousness have been placed within the Voice’s body.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The Voice for all intents and purposes is the Emperor. The Voice doesn't use Vitiate's power. Vitiate uses the Voice's body.In fact, to converse with the Emperor’s Voice is to have an audience with the Emperor himself, whose power and consciousness have been placed within the Voice’s body.
I'm also pretty sure Vitiate's real body would be able to tank much more as a result of the ritual.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
There may be a difference however in how much power a weaker body (a voice) can effectively channel at once.I'm also pretty sure Vitiate's real body would be able to tank much more as a result of the ritual.
Either way, the only real evidence for this not being the Emperor's body is an email sent to the Wrath.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
1. That's not implied anywhere but in theory.
2. Tank much more what? We don't actually see the fight, only it's beginning and end. If your opinion on how strong the Emperor's body must be stems from how short the boss fight is, you're wasting time.Either way, the only real evidence for this not being the Emperor's body is an email sent to the Wrath.
The email sent to the Wrath says:
“While you silenced Darth Baras, the Jedi attempted the impossible feat of destroying the Emperor. Instead, they merely defeated the Emperor’s true Voice.”
This implies that the Emperor's true body is superior in some way, be it durability or ability to channel power. I think this email is plenty proof that it was not Vitiate's true body. You know, that and the fact that the body was ****ing human!
Originally posted by Emperordmb
The email sent to the Wrath says:
“While you silenced Darth Baras, the Jedi attempted the impossible feat of destroying the Emperor. Instead, they merely defeated the Emperor’s true Voice.”This implies that the Emperor's true body is superior in some way, be it durability or ability to channel power. I think this email is plenty proof that it was not Vitiate's true body. You know, that and the fact that the body was ****ing human!
All that said, there's still no proof of the Emperor somehow being hampered by the Voice's body, quite the opposite, so it matters not.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That email proves nothing, and the body could have been human. It was never stated anywhere however that it was.
Vitiate was a pure blood Sith Lord, so his original body would have been that of a pure blood Sith, which can be rather easily destinguished from a human. In Vitiate's special case, there is the addition of his - apparently - purely black eyes to mark him as special.
The body showed signs of Dark Side corruption, which given it's relative short time as the Voice, especially compared to uncorrupted previous Voice hardly makes since in the grand scheme.
I wonder how you determine the different length of the respective tenures as Voices. We could also determine the effects of Dark Side corruption on pureblood Sith Lords. Apparently, the Ancient Sith had alchemy that prevented such effects, which Vitiate himself did use on his Servants and Scourge as well. I don't see why he wouldn't use the same on his original body. And, well, there isn't much description of a Dark Side taint when Revan faces his 1,000-year old original body, right?
And, you may have forgotten: He did use that last body in order to perform a Galaxy spanning Dark Side ritual. Channeling that much Dark Side energy is wont to corrupt a body in a rather short time. Hell. Anakin did show the first physical signs of a Dark Side taint (changing eye color) mere hours after becoming a Sith Lord - without doing much in the "Dark Side use" department. And Sidious managed to melt his own face, when he was exposed to the energy of his very own force lightning.
And given the fact that Sith Purebloods turn pink with very small Dark Side corruption, I wouldn't find it too farfetched for the Emperor's body after living thousands of years with Dark Side corruption, would turn white.
They don't lose their facial appendages and become humans, though.
Even the end of the fight suggests anything but a standard killing of a Voice.
Oh, it does? How many "standard killings" of a Voice have you seen exactly?
I'm sure Vitiate's alive, but ass for that not being his body, it'll take a little more than an email saying, "Oh by the way it wasn't him."
1) Vitiate is a pureblood Sith - the body was a human.
2) Vitiate was described as having pure black eyes - the body didn't.
3) We know that Vitiate invented the position of the Voice in order to keep his original body save - why would he deviate from that practice?
4) And, of course, there is this little e-mail from Servant One. Why would he lie regarding that specific point exactly. The main message is, that the Emperor is still alive - whether he is in his original body or in the shape of another Voice doesn't matter for that message, does it? So why suggest, that Servant One was not telling the truth regarding that point?
So, we have hard facts contradicting your speculation and baseless assumptions. So I guess, you're wrong.
All that said, there's still no proof of the Emperor somehow being hampered by the Voice's body, quite the opposite, so it matters not.
It is quite a well established fact, that a force user possessing another body, is exposed to the natural limitations of that body. You may want to think a second about how the official version of Force sensitivity works: by midi-chlorian count that determines the strength of the natural connection a being has to the energy field being called the Force.
So if a force users "possesses" the body of another being, which had a weaker connection to the force (and with Vitiate's prodigal display of force abilities in a very young age, almost everyone would fit into that category), the force is channeled through a weaker connection. You may want to think of a Vitiate's strength in the force as a reservoir of water and the respective Voices providing a variety of channels with difference size with his original body being the one that can carry most water.
That also explains the discrepancy between the power-levels Vitiate demonstrates while using his original body and different Voices. And it might also serve as explanation for changing his "Voices" in rather short amounts of time. Maybe he was simple "using them up" in a very fast fashion - much like Sidious did with his Clone bodies throughout the "Dark Empire" series.
Originally posted by Nai
Vitiate was a pure blood Sith Lord, so his original body would have been that of a pure blood Sith, which can be rather easily destinguished from a human. In Vitiate's special case, there is the addition of his - apparently - purely black eyes to mark him as special.
With high levels of darkside corruption the two races can be quite indistinguishable actually. And the same source that says he's a Sith Pureblood says that he's so corrupted by the darkside that he doesn't even resemble one any more and "had little in common with ordinary Sith."
Originally posted by Nai
I wonder how you determine the different length of the respective tenures as Voices.
We see him in possession of a Voss Mystic body in the Sith Warrior storyline. He had been in possession of it for some time, with no corruption to it noticeable. He's then killed during that storyline, very shortly before the Jedi Knight confronts him.
Originally posted by Nai
We could also determine the effects of Dark Side corruption on pureblood Sith Lords.
Originally posted by Nai
Apparently, the Ancient Sith had alchemy that prevented such effects, which Vitiate himself did use on his Servants and Scourge as well. I don't see why he wouldn't use the same on his original body. And, well, there isn't much description of a Dark Side taint when Revan faces his 1,000-year old original body, right?
Vitiate could have only mastered that ability after he'd been corrupted. Karpyshan does mention that the darkside has corrupted his features over the centuries. Its probable that even if he used that alchemy it would be ineffective on him compared to them since his power eclipses theirs and he's lived a millennia longer than them.
Originally posted by Nai
And, you may have forgotten: He did use that last body in order to perform a Galaxy spanning Dark Side ritual. Channeling that much Dark Side energy is wont to corrupt a body in a rather short time. Hell. Anakin did show the first physical signs of a Dark Side taint (changing eye color) mere hours after becoming a Sith Lord - without doing much in the "Dark Side use" department. And Sidious managed to melt his own face, when he was exposed to the energy of his very own force lightning.
Good theory. Perhaps that's why his eyes were red, huh?
Originally posted by Nai
They don't lose their facial appendages and become humans, though.
Not all Sith Pureblood's have facial appendages.
Originally posted by Nai
Oh, it does? How many "standard killings" of a Voice have you seen exactly?
One. We see a Voice killed in the Sith Warrior campaign. He just falls over and dies easily. There is no spastic sparking nor is Vitiate bothered by the death at all. In contrast to his utter insanity and lengthy recovery after the JK kills him.
Originally posted by Nai
1) Vitiate is a pureblood Sith - the body was a human.
2) Vitiate was described as having pure black eyes - the body didn't.
3) We know that Vitiate invented the position of the Voice in order to keep his original body save - why would he deviate from that practice?
4) And, of course, there is this little e-mail from Servant One. Why would he lie regarding that specific point exactly. The main message is, that the Emperor is still alive - whether he is in his original body or in the shape of another Voice doesn't matter for that message, does it? So why suggest, that Servant One was not telling the truth regarding that point?So, we have hard facts contradicting your speculation and baseless assumptions. So I guess, you're wrong.
1. I don't believe I've seen anything explicitly saying it was human. I direct you again to Karpyshan's point that he "had little in common with ordinary Sith."
2. Easily explainable.
3. Why would he use his Voice to absorb the power of the galaxy instead of his own body?
4. Why would he lie to the Emperor's Wrath about the Emperor not being dead? Gee, I don't know. It's fairly obvious that it would be in their best interests to lie about it, should he have actually died.
Hardly speculation when the Lead Writer for Swtor confirms that it was the Emperor's body that died: "The Jedi Knight defeats the Emperor at the end, and the Emperor's body does die.”
Originally posted by Nai
It is quite a well established fact, that a force user possessing another body, is exposed to the natural limitations of that body. You may want to think a second about how the official version of Force sensitivity works: by midi-chlorian count that determines the strength of the natural connection a being has to the energy field being called the Force.So if a force users "possesses" the body of another being, which had a weaker connection to the force (and with Vitiate's prodigal display of force abilities in a very young age, almost everyone would fit into that category), the force is channeled through a weaker connection. You may want to think of a Vitiate's strength in the force as a reservoir of water and the respective Voices providing a variety of channels with difference size with his original body being the one that can carry most water.
That also explains the discrepancy between the power-levels Vitiate demonstrates while using his original body and different Voices. And it might also serve as explanation for changing his "Voices" in rather short amounts of time. Maybe he was simple "using them up" in a very fast fashion - much like Sidious did with his Clone bodies throughout the "Dark Empire" series.
Which doesn't apply to Vitiate since he loooong expanded his powers beyond his midi-chlorian count with his ritual on Nathema as well as his draining of his servants and Revan's power. If he can do that with his original body, he can do it with his Voice as well. And he has extensive experience with placing his power in other bodies. Also, remember that he was going to use whichever body it was to absorb the power of the galaxy, so either way that wouldn't be a factor. If it could contain that level of power, it could contain Vitiate's ordinary levels of power.
So personally I don't see anything conclusive that it was his Voice nor any reason why it matters at all. The Voice possesses his power and is described as essentially being him. So this line of argument is rather pointless.
I guess he can't control his real body while in his Voice. It does store his consciousness afterall.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Neph, all ancient Sith had facial appendages. The purebloods in TOR's time have human blood, which is why they invariably have five fingers and their Sith racial traits are on the wane.
Then why are they called Purebloods? If its a misnomer for them then it could just as easily be so for Vitiate. There's no mention of him having facial appendages.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I guess he can't control his real body while in his Voice. It does store his consciousness afterall.Then why are they called Purebloods? If its a misnomer for them then it could just as easily be so for Vitiate. There's no mention of him having facial appendages.
It's even pointed out by devs that it's a misnomer. Look at GAotS: find me a Sith without face add-ons. Even Sadow with his 'near Jedi bloodline' had a huge chin extension, bright red skin, and was the only one to have five fingers on the dark council.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The Voice for all intents and purposes is the Emperor. The Voice doesn't use Vitiate's power. Vitiate uses the Voice's body.In fact, to converse with the Emperor’s Voice is to have an audience with the Emperor himself, whose power and consciousness have been placed within the Voice’s body.
If I have a bottle of wine, and I pour like a fourth of it in a glass, I have poured my wine into the glass. That doesn't mean I poured it all in there.
You need something more concrete than that.
Originally posted by NemeBro
If I have a bottle of wine, and I pour like a fourth of it in a glass, I have poured my wine into the glass. That doesn't mean I poured it all in there.You need something more concrete than that.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Nothing supports your comparison nor says that Emperor partially places his power in anything. You'll need a little more than your assumptions.
Since body possession never relies on the spirit but is dependent on the host (Kyp and Kun, Ragnos and Tavion, Sadow and his host body, that one sith in TOR on Hoth, etc.) there's a precedent which you're ignoring.