HoT vs Lord Vitiate (Both at Full Power)

Started by Nephthys5 pages

Originally posted by NemeBro
If I have a bottle of wine, and I pour like a fourth of it in a glass, I have poured my wine into the glass. That doesn't mean I poured it all in there.

You need something more concrete than that.

It says that talking with the Voice is to talk to Vitiate himself since it possesses his power and his consciousness. That's strongly suggesting his whole power. And another quote:

"The Voice also wields the Emperor's incredible power and is capable of striking down any who displease him."

So nothing concrete.

All right.

Do you have any reason to doubt that it holds all his power? All sources say that the Voice possesses his power, not a portion of it. Unless you have a compelling reason to think it would only be a portion, I see no reason to humor you here.

The precedent Moose mentioned which I was totally aware of.

Which is different since Vitiate actually prepares the Voice with rituals and various other means for housing his power. He's not just possessing it.

Originally posted by NemeBro
You do though.

I haven't said or claimed anything without supporting it. You on the other hand just brought analogy in that is supported by nothing.

Wow I missed a lot. The black eyes argument is actually a great one. The eyes on the body that HOT killed had red irises with white scleras. While one could make the argument that the red part was a result of more dark side corruption or immersion, it would not make his scleras go from a unique and evil looking black, to your average run of the mill white.

As per the whole "Vitiate didn't look Sith because dark side corruption made him look like a being of indeterminate race" thing does fall flat when you consider that he looks far more human than he does Sith.

As per the whole "why would Vitiate send the Wrath after the false voice thing" if he was trying to destroy the Galaxy, it probably worked in his best interests to keep the Dark Council and everyone else busy so his ritual wouldn't be interfered with. If his ritual was interfered with and he failed to pull it off, Baras does not have control of his empire any longer. On the topic of that, trying to wipe out all the life in the Galaxy paints a big fat target on his head, so I doubt he would risk his death like that.

As per the whole "the emperor's body does indeed die" quote, that quote is clearly pointing out that his body died, but implies that his spirit did not and that he'd be making a return. By "the emperor's body" they could've been referencing a voice body housing his spirit at the time which technically belonged to him, technically making it "his body."

There is also no reason to assume the Hands are lying when you consider the evidence and logic provided above.

On an out of universe perspective, let's think about the makers of the game shall we. They said very specifically that Vitiate's body dies, with emphasis on his body, implying that they plan on having him make a return at some point. They also threw in an email to the Wrath that confirms his survival. They are very clearly keeping Vitiate alive to milk more money/plot out of him.

I don't know why some people are so insistent that that had to have been Vitiate's true body and Vitiate is dead and gone, despite the evidence and logic to the contrary.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Wow I missed a lot. The black eyes argument is actually a great one. The eyes on the body that HOT killed had red irises with white scleras. While one could make the argument that the red part was a result of more dark side corruption or immersion, it would not make his scleras go from a unique and evil looking black, to your average run of the mill white.

Looks white enough to me.


As per the whole "Vitiate didn't look Sith because dark side corruption made him look like a being of indeterminate race" thing does fall flat when you consider that he looks far more human than he does Sith.

This is still only your opinions.

As per the whole "why would Vitiate send the Wrath after the false voice thing" if he was trying to destroy the Galaxy, it probably worked in his best interests to keep the Dark Council and everyone else busy so his ritual wouldn't be interfered with. If his ritual was interfered with and he failed to pull it off, Baras does not have control of his empire any longer. On the topic of that, trying to wipe out all the life in the Galaxy paints a big fat target on his head, so I doubt he would risk his death like that.

Except the Voice we see does in fact have the Emperor's consciousness in it. Nothing suggests it isn't a Voice.

As per the whole "the emperor's body does indeed die" quote, that quote is clearly pointing out that his body died, but implies that his spirit did not and that he'd be making a return. By "the emperor's body" they could've been referencing a voice body housing his spirit at the time which technically belonged to him, technically making it "his body."

That's the not the point anyone made but an email. The quote doesn't clearly point out anything. If it meant his Voice, they would have pointed it out as clearly as the email you based the rest of your opinions on.

There is also no reason to assume the Hands are lying when you consider the evidence and logic provided above.

Your opinions aren't really evidence.

On an out of universe perspective, let's think about the makers of the game shall we. They said very specifically that Vitiate's body dies, with emphasis on his body, implying that they plan on having him make a return at some point. They also threw in an email to the Wrath that confirms his survival. They are very clearly keeping Vitiate alive to milk more money/plot out of him.


There's no reason for that to limit Vitiate's body dying when he has Voices for this very reason.

I don't know why some people are so insistent that that had to have been Vitiate's true body and Vitiate is dead and gone, despite the evidence and logic to the contrary.

Whoever said this? No one. Vitiate's body dying shouldn't limit him in the slightest if he constantly has a supply of Voices.

HoT is a puss, you should just accept it and move on

Originally posted by FreshestSlice

Not sure what relevance this picture has.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
This is still only your opinions.

And the viewpoint that this was Vitiate's true body is what exactly?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except the Voice we see does in fact have the Emperor's consciousness in it. Nothing suggests it isn't a Voice.

All voices have Vitiate's conscious. You saying that nothing suggests it isn't a voice doesn't exactly help your case....? What are you trying to say?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's the not the point anyone made but an email. The quote doesn't clearly point out anything. If it meant his Voice, they would have pointed it out as clearly as the email you based the rest of your opinions on.

I believe that was one of the creators in an interview, and not the email.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Your opinions aren't really evidence.

And I could say the exact same to anyone who says that that was Vitiate's true body.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
There's no reason for that to limit Vitiate's body dying when he has Voices for this very reason. Whoever said this? No one. Vitiate's body dying shouldn't limit him in the slightest if he constantly has a supply of Voices.

He has his voices so that he can operate without his true body dying. The voices are there so he can keep his true body safe, so evidently it is very important.

If you are seriously going off of the tangent that Vitiate's true body was killed, but he survived, then what reason at all would the hands have for lying in that email?

Originally posted by WildBantha88
HoT is a puss, you should just accept it and move on

HoT due to his accomplishments has been established as being one of the most powerful Star Wars characters of all time, above Mace Windu in Sabers possibly.

Originally posted by Nephthys
With high levels of darkside corruption the two races can be quite indistinguishable actually. And the same source that says he's a Sith Pureblood says that he's so corrupted by the darkside that he doesn't even resemble one any more and "had little in common with ordinary Sith."

As Janus has pointed out already: There aren't pure blood Sith without facial appendages in the time of Vitiate's birth, so we would see them, if that was his original body. And even a massive form of darkside corruption wouldn't magic them away.


We see him in possession of a Voss Mystic body in the Sith Warrior storyline. He had been in possession of it for some time, with no corruption to it noticeable. He's then killed during that storyline, very shortly before the Jedi Knight confronts him.

Urm. What?
We don't know how long he was in possession of the Voss Mystic body.

This is him, right before attacking the Jedi Strike Team. Doesn't look like a Voss Mystic to me. So he took that shape after this confrontation. And the entirety of the HoT Voss storyline happens after the Emperor is freed there by the new Wrath (who is logically just given that position after Scourge's betrayal). With additional time passing while the Hero is busy on Corellia. So he could have possessed the last body quite longer than the Voss Mystic.


Thanks for providing proof that the facial appendages don't fall off because of Dark Side corruption.


Vitiate could have only mastered that ability after he'd been corrupted. Karpyshan does mention that the darkside has corrupted his features over the centuries. Its probable that even if he used that alchemy it would be ineffective on him compared to them since his power eclipses theirs and he's lived a millennia longer than them.

Again, I can only point to the original source material concerning the Ancient Sith. The original Sith species has existed as a society of dark side using individuals for more than 100,000 years. It wouldn't be off the chart to suggest, that they have developed a collective resistance against it's "tainting" effects over that time span. Because, as we see in the comics, not a single Ancient Sith Lord suffers from any physical "Dark Side corruption", when all of them have survived for centuries.

Could it still have affected Vitiate in a very heavy fashion? Why, of course. But not in way that makes him indistinquishable from a human being. Perhabs the body that faces the strike team is his "original" one, given that is the only one that fits the description as not being recognizeable as either human or Sith.


Good theory. Perhaps that's why his eyes were red, huh?

Huh?


Not all Sith Pureblood's have facial appendages.

The original Ancient Sith all had facial appendages, as the only interbreeding happened with the (relatively few) Dark Jedi that joined the Sith 2,000 years before the fall of the Sith Empire. As Janus pointed out: That even applies to people with a almost pure Jedi lineage like Naga Sadow.

And SW:TOR itself offers various instances, in which it is made clear, that their is destinction between the playable "purebloods" and the one with an Ancient Sith lineage. The Inquisitor storyline has Overseer Harkun constantly talking down his apprentices, because of the pureblood Sith Ffon Althe, who is destined to overcome them all by virtue of his ancestry. There is also an individual in the Korriban Academy, that sents you on a quest to take blood samples of various instructors in the academy, to deterime whether they are "pureblood Sith" or not.


One. We see a Voice killed in the Sith Warrior campaign. He just falls over and dies easily. There is no spastic sparking nor is Vitiate bothered by the death at all. In contrast to his utter insanity and lengthy recovery after the JK kills him.

Because Vitiate wanted to be killed at that point in time and willfully relinquished the body that he used as host. Hardly an instance compareably to his battle against the HoT, is it?


1. I don't believe I've seen anything explicitly saying it was human. I direct you again to Karpyshan's point that he "had little in common with ordinary Sith."

He would still have the typical Sith features (facial appendages), that don't go away.


2. Easily explainable.

So why didn't you explain it?


3. Why would he use his Voice to absorb the power of the galaxy instead of his own body?

Because it is his essence that absorbs the power, making it completely irrelevant which body he was using for the task.


4. Why would he lie to the Emperor's Wrath about the Emperor not being dead? Gee, I don't know. It's fairly obvious that it would be in their best interests to lie about it, should he have actually died.

As we know that Vitiate hasn't died, this isn't a lie.
The point is, that it doesn't make any sense to lie regarding the Emperor's body. Whether or not it was the original one is entirely irrelevant, as long as the essence of the Emperor survived (which it did, as we all know).


Hardly speculation when the Lead Writer for Swtor confirms that it was the Emperor's body that died: "The Jedi Knight defeats the Emperor at the end, and the Emperor's body does die.”

And what "body" was he referring to? The host body or Vitiate's original body? Not that this question even matters, since the voiced opinion of some author is not considered canon and can be entirely ignored. I thought I have forced that lesson into the heads of people often enough by now.


Which doesn't apply to Vitiate since he loooong expanded his powers beyond his midi-chlorian count with his ritual on Nathema as well as his draining of his servants and Revan's power. If he can do that with his original body, he can do it with his Voice as well. And he has extensive experience with placing his power in other bodies. Also, remember that he was going to use whichever body it was to absorb the power of the galaxy, so either way that wouldn't be a factor. If it could contain that level of power, it could contain Vitiate's ordinary levels of power.

The power of Vitiate is not linked to his body, but to his essence. The body just determines how much of the power he could use. Do you honestly think that, if was capable of summoning the power of 8,000 Sith Lords in every instance we see him fighting, anybody would last even a second against him? So even his original body offered some limitations, but not as much as the weaker host bodies. There was a reason, why Sidious didn't see the essence transfer as the final solution to his quest for immortality.

The same mechanic can be observed at multiple instances in the mythos. Think about Jerec absorbing power from the Valley of the Jedi - just to get beaten by Kyle Katarn. Not to mention the weaker versions of force users possessing other people (e.g. Ragnos with Tavion).

So personally I don't see anything conclusive that it was his Voice nor any reason why it matters at all. The Voice possesses his power and is described as essentially being him. So this line of argument is rather pointless.

See above. For the Voice to be capable of handling the same amount of power Vitiate's original body could channel, it would have needed to be as powerful as his original body. I don't consider that likely.


Do you have any reason to doubt that it holds all his power? All sources say that the Voice possesses his power, not a portion of it. Unless you have a compelling reason to think it would only be a portion, I see no reason to humor you here.

Yes. Because his children hold a part of his power as well and are capable of "summoning" it (or Vitiate takes over there). This while he occupies his host body at the same time. There is a quote somewhere, that says, people talking to him have the - correct - feeling that he is listening to other conversations elsewere (through his children). So his essence is spread between his original body, his children and his Voice at least, making it impossible for the Voice to command all of it - especially in comparison to Vitiate before his confrontation with Revan.

For the millionth time, Vitiate's host body is not dead.

Thanks for your input.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thanks for your input.

No problem, because you keep saying it and everything points to the opposite. Not to mention the guy's own words leave LOTS of room for interpretation.

Vitiate.

Originally posted by Nai
As Janus has pointed out already: There aren't pure blood Sith without facial appendages in the time of Vitiate's birth, so we would see them, if that was his original body. And even a massive form of darkside corruption wouldn't magic them away.

That remains to be seen.

Originally posted by Nai
Urm. What?
We don't know how long he was in possession of the Voss Mystic body.

This is him, right before attacking the Jedi Strike Team. Doesn't look like a Voss Mystic to me. So he took that shape after this confrontation. And the entirety of the HoT Voss storyline happens after the Emperor is freed there by the new Wrath (who is logically just given that position after Scourge's betrayal). With additional time passing while the Hero is busy on Corellia. So he could have possessed the last body quite longer than the Voss Mystic.

Dude, he's.... wearing a mask. You can't tell if he's a Voss Mystic or not. 😬

But you're probably correct that he only possessed a Mystic after his confrontation with the Strike Team. We do know he was trapped on Voss before the Sith Warrior was chosen as the Wrath though. Which still puts the timeline at more or equal time as he would have been in possession of the body the Knight fights, if it were a Voice.

Originally posted by Nai
Thanks for providing proof that the facial appendages don't fall off because of Dark Side corruption.

I was showing off the pale skin color. Though the Vitiate we see in the Dark Temple has far paler skin than any human with darkside corruption too.

Originally posted by Nai
Again, I can only point to the original source material concerning the Ancient Sith. The original Sith species has existed as a society of dark side using individuals for more than 100,000 years. It wouldn't be off the chart to suggest, that they have developed a collective resistance against it's "tainting" effects over that time span. Because, as we see in the comics, not a single Ancient Sith Lord suffers from any physical "Dark Side corruption", when all of them have survived for centuries.

Could it still have affected Vitiate in a very heavy fashion? Why, of course. But not in way that makes him indistinquishable from a human being. Perhabs the body that faces the strike team is his "original" one, given that is the only one that fits the description as not being recognizeable as either human or Sith.

Yet we know that Vitiate barely resembles his species from Karpyshan's twitter.

Did you seriously not know that Vitiate is wearing a mask in that scene? Speaking of which, lets take a look at it, shall we:

There's no facial appendages here. No bumps in the fabric other than for his ears.

Originally posted by Nai
Huh?

Perhaps channeling that much darkside energy and death permanently or temporarily corrupted him enough to turn his eyes red.

Originally posted by Nai
The original Ancient Sith all had facial appendages, as the only interbreeding happened with the (relatively few) Dark Jedi that joined the Sith 2,000 years before the fall of the Sith Empire. As Janus pointed out: That even applies to people with a almost pure Jedi lineage like Naga Sadow.

And SW:TOR itself offers various instances, in which it is made clear, that their is destinction between the playable "purebloods" and the one with an Ancient Sith lineage. The Inquisitor storyline has Overseer Harkun constantly talking down his apprentices, because of the pureblood Sith Ffon Althe, who is destined to overcome them all by virtue of his ancestry. There is also an individual in the Korriban Academy, that sents you on a quest to take blood samples of various instructors in the academy, to deterime whether they are "pureblood Sith" or not.

Do you have any actual proof that its the case that all Ancient Sith had facial appendages and its solely because of inbreeding that we see Sith Pureblood without them in TOR? Because pictures of the Ancient Sith show otherwise:

Naga Sadow actually has been drawn without facial appendages at times btw. And there did seem to be Sith without facial appendages in the old TotJ comics:

Though the monkey faces are quite amusing.

Also you forget that Ffon didn't have facial appendages either.

Originally posted by Nai
Because Vitiate wanted to be killed at that point in time and willfully relinquished the body that he used as host. Hardly an instance compareably to his battle against the HoT, is it?

No, I don't see why that would change anything or why Vitiate would be so heavily weakened after one death as opposed to the other.

Originally posted by Nai
He would still have the typical Sith features (facial appendages), that don't go away.

How do you know? Vitiate is a completely unique case. We have no idea how he changed over the centuries.

Originally posted by Nai
So why didn't you explain it?

I did above.

Originally posted by Nai
Because it is his essence that absorbs the power, making it completely irrelevant which body he was using for the task.

Says the guy going on about midi-chlorian limits. If that's the case then it shouldn't matter if it was the Voice or not. If his essence is what determines his power, then the Voice which contains his essence is just as powerful as his true body.

Originally posted by Nai
As we know that Vitiate hasn't died, this isn't a lie.
The point is, that it doesn't make any sense to lie regarding the Emperor's body. Whether or not it was the original one is entirely irrelevant, as long as the essence of the Emperor survived (which it did, as we all know).

Oh please, Vitiate has already had one Wrath turn on him. What do you think would happen if his new Wrath, barely appointed and largely untested in terms of loyalty, were to learn that his true body had been vanquished? Hell, if he wanted to the Wrath could rather simply take up where Baras left off. Kill the Hand, **** up Vitiate's return and tell everyone that he'll deliver the Emperor's orders from now on. Telling him that it was just his Voice would lead to much the same reaction as you're having, that he'd obviously return and it's nothing that significant.

Originally posted by Nai
And what "body" was he referring to? The host body or Vitiate's original body? Not that this question even matters, since the voiced opinion of some author is not considered canon and can be entirely ignored. I thought I have forced that lesson into the heads of people often enough by now.

He say's "The Emperor's body", not "The Voice's body". All sources refer to the being in the temple as "The Sith Emperor" and that the Jedi Knight struck down "The Emperor." When the Sith Warrior talks with the Voice, all game text refers to him as "The Emperor's Voice." Even when Kira Carsen is possessed by him, it refers to him as "Kira Carsen" still. Yet all sources including the Lead Writer refers to it as "The Emperor's body".

Also lol @ wanting to discard the opinion of the Lead Writer for Swtor but taking the Hand totally at their word.

Originally posted by Nai
The power of Vitiate is not linked to his body, but to his essence. The body just determines how much of the power he could use. Do you honestly think that, if was capable of summoning the power of 8,000 Sith Lords in every instance we see him fighting, anybody would last even a second against him? So even his original body offered some limitations, but not as much as the weaker host bodies. There was a reason, why Sidious didn't see the essence transfer as the final solution to his quest for immortality.

The same mechanic can be observed at multiple instances in the mythos. Think about Jerec absorbing power from the Valley of the Jedi - just to get beaten by Kyle Katarn. Not to mention the weaker versions of force users possessing other people (e.g. Ragnos with Tavion).

Vitiate isn't literally as powerful as 8000 Sith Lords in much the same way that Nihilus isn't as powerful as every being on Katarr. Much of his power goes to maintaining his immortality and feeding his "endless hunger." Meanwhile we have instances such as Darth Nox channeling the "combined power" of multiple Force users, well above their own limit. And we know that Vitiate was expanding his power through feeding on his servants. Theres absolutely no proof that he was limited by his body. If that were true, then his final ritual would be pointless since he'd never be capable of wielding that much power.

Lastly, don't forget that the ritual of Nathema "vastly increased his capacity as a practitioner of the Force." Which seems to pretty directly contradict your argument.

As I pointed out before, those cases aren't comparable with Vitiate's because he specifically prepares his Voice to house his power and consciousness and completely hollows out the body before possessing it.

Originally posted by Nai
See above. For the Voice to be capable of handling the same amount of power Vitiate's original body could channel, it would have needed to be as powerful as his original body. I don't consider that likely.

You have absolutely no proof for this. The only thing you have is fan speculation.

Jerec couldn't use all the power in the Valley - Not confirmed anywhere. Its just as likely that Kyle just got lucky.

Ragnos was limited by Tavion's body - Never stated.

Originally posted by Nai
Yes. Because his children hold a part of his power as well and are capable of "summoning" it (or Vitiate takes over there). This while he occupies his host body at the same time. There is a quote somewhere, that says, people talking to him have the - correct - feeling that he is listening to other conversations elsewere (through his children). So his essence is spread between his original body, his children and his Voice at least, making it impossible for the Voice to command all of it - especially in comparison to Vitiate before his confrontation with Revan.

Many of Vitiates Children were exposed and killed before his confrontation with the Jedi Knight. Also theres no indication that put part of his power and essence into them weakened him. It's just as possible that he placed power inside them and then recovered that portion like a normal Force user would. His power is said to be "ever expanding" after all.

Ok... For the last time, Vitiate's eyes were black. Dark side corruption could give him red irises, but it wouldn't give him normal scleras.

Where does it say that his whole eye's were black? I thought that just refered to him having black irises. In Revan he is described as having "dark circles of his eyes". If the whole eyeball were black, that wouldn't be visible.

It also says that his eyes turn red when using his power. So that may be why he has red eyes too.