HoT vs Lord Vitiate (Both at Full Power)

Originally posted by Nephthys
Where does it say that his whole eye's were black? I thought that just refered to him having black irises. In Revan he is described as having "dark circles of his eyes". If the whole eyeball were black, that wouldn't be visible.

It also says that his eyes turn red when using his power. So that may be why he has red eyes too.

Once again though, it makes no sense for Vitiate to be dead when the creators are clearly keeping him alive to make money.

As Nai said, his power is tied to his essence, not his body. He will return, in a different body.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That remains to be seen.

Does it? As it is you that wants to suggest that Vitiate deviates from his own race standards in a very special way, it would be your task to back that assertion with proof. Unless you can do that, there is no reason to follow your line of thinking, is there?

Dude, he's.... wearing a mask. You can't tell if he's a Voss Mystic or not. 😬

Totally didn't remember that - and I just went by the picture above. Has been ages since I played the HoT storyline.

But you're probably correct that he only possessed a Mystic after his confrontation with the Strike Team. We do know he was trapped on Voss before the Sith Warrior was chosen as the Wrath though. Which still puts the timeline at more or equal time as he would have been in possession of the body the Knight fights, if it were a Voice.

Actually, I was wrong there, I think.
Baras needed some time for research and planning to orchestrate his plan to trap the Voice. Also, if I remember correctly, the Voss mystic that would become the Voice was kidnapped from the planet shortly after its discovery [years before the events of SW:TOR]. I could be wrong there, of course. Would need some research on Baras' plans, I think. That could also explain why Vitiate was wearing a mask during his confrontation with the Jedi Strike Team. Revealing the Voss identity of his Voice would probably have led to investigations on the planet - and have weakened the Empire's presence there.

I was showing off the pale skin color. Though the Vitiate we see in the Dark Temple has far paler skin than any human with darkside corruption too.

That appears to be speculation, Neph.

Yet we know that Vitiate barely resembles his species from Karpyshan's twitter.

Again, Neph: Everything said outside official source material can be considered non-existant as far as evidence goes for debates here. You may want to recall Nick Gillard's statement that lightsaber forms (specifically Vaapad) didn't even exists. The authority of a Star Wars authors doesn't extend beyond the source material and even then, if he left something open for interpretation it is just that: open for interpretation.

Did you seriously not know that Vitiate is wearing a mask in that scene? Speaking of which, lets take a look at it, shall we:

There's no facial appendages here. No bumps in the fabric other than for his ears.

Non conclusive evidence, Neph. There is also no bump from a nose, so I suppose Vitiate is Lord Voldemort. Depending on the fit of the Mask, they could be hidden under it. If that even is his real body, which would be another deviation from his modus operandi of keeping Voices in the first place.

Perhaps channeling that much darkside energy and death permanently or temporarily corrupted him enough to turn his eyes red.

His eyes were entirely black, Neph. While I can see the Iris turning red, I don't see how his sclera (the white stuff in a human eye) would go from black to white in the process.

Do you have any actual proof that its the case that all Ancient Sith had facial appendages and its solely because of inbreeding that we see Sith Pureblood without them in TOR? Because pictures of the Ancient Sith show otherwise:

Naga Sadow actually has been drawn without facial appendages at times btw. And there did seem to be Sith without facial appendages in the old TotJ comics:

Though the monkey faces are quite amusing.

Also you forget that Ffon didn't have facial appendages either.

You may want to check the typical features of the Sith species here (since I'm lacking any other source at the moment). Anything that deviates from those was caused by interbreeding with the human Dark Jedi. Which can be completely ruled out for the maternal side of Vitiate's family (non force-sensitive completely) and is rather unlikely, considering the Human Dark Jedi where dwelling mostly on the main planets of the Empire (Ziost).

For the rest of your examples: There are still some remarkable features that destinquish the Sith rather clearly from human beings - and most of that are protuding bone spurs, which also wouldn't disappear through Dark Side corruption.

No, I don't see why that would change anything or why Vitiate would be so heavily weakened after one death as opposed to the other.

Because it wasn't the death that weakened him, but the failed ritual he attempted. He was already in a weakend condition when the HoT confronted him - otherwise the Jedi wouldn't have survived the encounter.

How do you know? Vitiate is a completely unique case. We have no idea how he changed over the centuries.

Because we haven't seen body parts falling off because of Dark Side corruption? Please stop speculating without the slightest bit of evidence pointing in the direction of your thoughts.

Says the guy going on about midi-chlorian limits. If that's the case then it shouldn't matter if it was the Voice or not. If his essence is what determines his power, then the Voice which contains his essence is just as powerful as his true body.

Do you think that Vitiate's original body has a higher midi-chlorian count than any of his Voice bodies, Neph, given his prodigal talent in the force? That appears to be likely. So it does matter which body he was using - you just didn't get the point.

Oh please, Vitiate has already had one Wrath turn on him. What do you think would happen if his new Wrath, barely appointed and largely untested in terms of loyalty, were to learn that his true body had been vanquished? Hell, if he wanted to the Wrath could rather simply take up where Baras left off. Kill the Hand, **** up Vitiate's return and tell everyone that he'll deliver the Emperor's orders from now on. Telling him that it was just his Voice would lead to much the same reaction as you're having, that he'd obviously return and it's nothing that significant.

The detail you have missed, dear Neph, is the message send by servant one before Vitiate's confrontation with the HoT:

"We are again aware of the Voice. Preparations are being made to secure a new host, but the rituals take time." - Servant One

Do you think they saw what would happen to Vitiate before, and so lied to the Wrath about securing a new host body, while letting Vitiate run lose in his original body?

He say's "The Emperor's body", not "The Voice's body". All sources refer to the being in the temple as "The Sith Emperor" and that the Jedi Knight struck down "The Emperor." When the Sith Warrior talks with the Voice, all game text refers to him as "The Emperor's Voice." Even when Kira Carsen is possessed by him, it refers to him as "Kira Carsen" still. Yet all sources including the Lead Writer refers to it as "The Emperor's body".

Except the two messages from Servant One, with the first one claiming that they are finding a new host body for the Emperor after the Wrath killed the Voss body?

That aside, Neph: You're stretching it with your claims. The thing facing the Jedi Strike Team is also exclusively reffered to as "the Emperor" and not "his Voice". When the Voice is trapped on Voss, the terms are used interchangeably throughout the source material, because trapping the Voice trapped the Emperor as well. And if the Voice wields Vitiate's power, why destinquish Emperor and Voice on all occassions?

Also lol @ wanting to discard the opinion of the Lead Writer for Swtor but taking the Hand totally at their word.

I'm not discarding the opinion of the Lead Write but your interpretation of it, when pretty much everything suggests that you are wrong.

Vitiate isn't literally as powerful as 8000 Sith Lords in much the same way that Nihilus isn't as powerful as every being on Katarr. Much of his power goes to maintaining his immortality and feeding his "endless hunger." Meanwhile we have instances such as Darth Nox channeling the "combined power" of multiple Force users, well above their own limit. And we know that Vitiate was expanding his power through feeding on his servants. Theres absolutely no proof that he was limited by his body. If that were true, then his final ritual would be pointless since he'd never be capable of wielding that much power.

Lastly, don't forget that the ritual of Nathema "vastly increased his capacity as a practitioner of the Force." Which seems to pretty directly contradict your argument.

As I pointed out before, those cases aren't comparable with Vitiate's because he specifically prepares his Voice to house his power and consciousness and completely hollows out the body before possessing it.

Limited in use of that power, Neph - not in accumulating it. What point of my metaphor was it you didn't understand? There is his essence (water reservoir) that can get more powerful (filled more and more) but the outlet of that reservoir (original body / host bodies) determine how much water (Force energy) can flow from the reservoir to the outside.

What do you think why it needed the Hand to find a new Voice body for Vitiate, if the Sith Emperor could - technically - just possess anybody. Could it be, that he was dependant on a sufficient force connection of the host body (e.g. a high enough Midichlorian count) to use it? Could it be that this is the very same thinking, that made Sidious strife for taking over Anakin Solo as a host body for his Dark Side essence, instead of chosing one of his own pawns or some random force sensible child?

Denying that idea is pretty much equal to suggesting that Jaden Korr is more powerful than Marka Ragnos.

You have absolutely no proof for this. The only thing you have is fan speculation.

Jerec couldn't use all the power in the Valley - Not confirmed anywhere. Its just as likely that Kyle just got lucky.

Ragnos was limited by Tavion's body - Never stated

Fan speculation, Neph? It has been stated in a variety of canon sources, that the ability to channel the Force is influenced by the midi-chlorian count of a Force sensitive. The more midi-chlorians, the more powerful the Force user.

Why the hell should that principle not apply, when a Force user is using another beings body? And why are you even suggesting that - against every evidence available?

Throughput DF:JK it is constantly mentioned by a variety of persons that absorbing power from the Valley would turn Jerec into a Force (demi)god. So instead being limited by his body, he was really omnipotent, but just suffered some bad luck. And, as said before, Ragnos is less powerful than a freaking padawan and wasn't limited by Tavion's body, which was not weaker than his original one, but also nigh death at the point at which he started possessing it.

Many of Vitiates Children were exposed and killed before his confrontation with the Jedi Knight. Also theres no indication that put part of his power and essence into them weakened him. It's just as possible that he placed power inside them and then recovered that portion like a normal Force user would. His power is said to be "ever expanding" after all.

Is his personal force power ever expanding, Neph?
The question isn't whether or not that did "weaken" him. The fact is, that some of his power stayed with his children and was, therefor, not accessible by his Voice. And I don't know if spreading your conscience over hundreds of bodies would really make you - as an individual - stronger.

As Nai said, his power is tied to his essence, not his body. He will return, in a different body.

Why would the make him use his own body versus the HoT, when the entire point of making Voices was to keep his original body save. So he deviates from his well established modus operandi that worked just fine for three centuries, after his Servants proclaim that he won't do that (announcing that they are just finding a new host body for the Voice). He then proceedes to conduct the most dangerous force ritual of his career in his original body (instead of protecting it by using a host) and confronts the HoT with the same body (despite of the danger that such a confrontation meant and the fact that such a confrontation led to the creation of the Voice in the first place). Then he has that "original body" killed, with his Servant's glossing over that to explain his absense.

This just happened, so that Neph can be right. 🙄

But I like being right.

So somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but the proponents of the "Vitiate's true body died" theory think he survived through a voice?

If that is the case, then why bother to protect his true body in the first place?
And what would the hands gain from lying to the Wrath about whih body died if he survived regardless?

There's a huge gap in logic here none of the proponents of this theory seem to feel like addressing.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
So somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but the proponents of the "Vitiate's true body died" theory think he survived through a voice?

If that is the case, then why bother to protect his true body in the first place?
And what would the hands gain from lying to the Wrath about whih body died if he survived regardless?

There's a huge gap in logic here none of the proponents of this theory seem to feel like addressing.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I didn't say he survived through a Voice. I said he would not need his body. I'm not sure if it's actually dead either way. As to the question, because it's his body. This is like saying why doesn't everyone protect their arms when there are prosthetics. There are plenty of reasons of wanting to protect a body that belongs to him. What do the Hands gain by lying? For starters, they could do it in an effort to show how unconquerable the real Emperor actually is. It builds moral, they themselves call it an "impossible feat."

Riiiiiiiigggggghhhhhht... Because the SWTOR writers would have the hands deceive the Wrath and their fan base for something as dull an uninteresting as boosting morale.

I also don't see any proof the hands are lying.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
So somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but the proponents of the "Vitiate's true body died" theory think he survived through a voice?

If that is the case, then why bother to protect his true body in the first place?
And what would the hands gain from lying to the Wrath about whih body died if he survived regardless?

There's a huge gap in logic here none of the proponents of this theory seem to feel like addressing.

Because dying severely weakened him and made him go shithive maggots.

Damage control. The whole Empire has been rocked by the news of the Emperor's death. Its obvious that the Hand would want to limit the blow by telling people that he's not really dead, its just that his Voice was killed. The Emperor's just resting guys, nothing to worry about. Hey **** off Malgus, the real Emperor ain't really dead yet. >:[

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because dying severely weakened him and made him go shithive maggots.

Damage control. The whole Empire has been rocked by the news of the Emperor's death. Its obvious that the Hand would want to limit the blow by telling people that he's not really dead, its just that his Voice was killed. The Emperor's just resting guys, nothing to worry about. Hey **** off Malgus, the real Emperor ain't really dead yet. >:[

They don't communicate with the rest of the Empire. Only the very top of the Sith hierarchy even know they exist.

Plus I imagine if they broadcast it to the world the Hero of Tython and Scourge would just rock up and push their shit in a few days later.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Vitiate already has other bodies he operates through jut as well, unless you are conceding that there is greater appeal to his true body, ie. greater ability to channel power or being necessary for his survival.

Riiiiiiiigggggghhhhhht... Because the SWTOR writers would have the hands deceive the Wrath and their fan base for something as dull an uninteresting as boosting morale.

I also don't see any proof the hands are lying.

Unfortunately it's nobody's job to prove it's false but your own if you don't believe it. I see no reason not to believe the email.

I love how this forum is filled with HoT fanboys that actually believe what HE slayed was the 'real' body of Emperor Vitiate. oh to what lengths will imbeciles go to defend their beloved character even with the fact laid in front of them they refuse to see logic

Originally posted by psmith81992
Unfortunately it's nobody's job to prove it's false but your own if you don't believe it. I see no reason not to believe the email.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
I love how this forum is filled with HoT fanboys that actually believe what HE slayed was the 'real' body of Emperor Vitiate. oh to what lengths will imbeciles go to defend their beloved character even with the fact laid in front of them they refuse to see logic

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No. It hurts to die. Why is that so hard for you to accept. It's his body. He wants it. Take my arm example, there are plenty of replacement arms lined up. Should every trooper stop wearing armor there because it can be replaced?

Because no government never does this. Ever. Because we want one of the highest, if not the highest, authority figure underneath the Emperor to have doubts in their leader. In a society that believes in removing the weak. Yeah.

I don't see any proof that they didn't. Yes, the Hands could be telling the truth. That's valid evidence. However, I'm weighing one side against the other, and no matter how damning, Nope mail isn't enough for me.

1. Vitiate became numb to pain a long time ago, so I doubt he gives a damn about how much it hurts. I doubt Vitiate holds such a sentimental attachment to his body that he would I to such lengths to preserve it if he could supposedly function without it.

2. The writers would logically not deceive everybody on that for a reason so dull and uninteresting. Yet the Wrath wasn't having doubts about the Emperor when he fell into Baras's trap and was being held captive by Set Melkor?

3. So the hands say something, and you say they're lying because "there is no evidence of them telling the truth", even though there's no evidence of them lying either? Not very logical.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They don't communicate with the rest of the Empire. Only the very top of the Sith hierarchy even know they exist.

Plus I imagine if they broadcast it to the world the Hero of Tython and Scourge would just rock up and push their shit in a few days later.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'm on an iPhone, so I can't conveniently quote one part at a time, so I'll jus answer in list format.

1. Vitiate became numb to pain a long time ago, so I doubt he gives a damn about how much it hurts. I doubt Vitiate holds such a sentimental attachment to his body that he would I to such lengths to preserve it if he could supposedly function without it.

2. The writers would logically not deceive everybody on that for a reason so dull and uninteresting. Yet the Wrath wasn't having doubts about the Emperor when he fell into Baras's trap and was being held captive by Set Melkor?

3. So the hands say something, and you say they're lying because "there is no evidence of them telling the truth", even though there's no evidence of them lying either? Not very logical.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
So you are telling me that the Emperor's top agents lied to prevent the Empire from spiraling into chaos, even though they decided not to spread the information anywhere near far enough to achieve the desired effect?

Well, lied to the Wrath at least. A brand new Wrath with unproven loyalty.

They decided nothing. They operate in secret, always.

The Hands made a claim, not I. One you simply accepted, by your own admission.