HoT vs Lord Vitiate (Both at Full Power)

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
I love how this forum is filled with HoT fanboys that actually believe what HE slayed was the 'real' body of Emperor Vitiate. oh to what lengths will imbeciles go to defend their beloved character even with the fact laid in front of them they refuse to see logic

Personally I don't think it matters one way of the other. I simply choose to believe the other based on the evidence.

The HoT is legit though. Even in Act I Satele was calling her their "greatest weapon against the darkness."

Originally posted by psmith81992
I didn't say you did. I simply stated that if you believed it to be untrue, it would be on you to prove it.

I'm not sure the burden of proof requires him to prove something isn't true.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
By your own statements the death of a Voice seemed to weaken him, so.... I didn't know of the numbness to pain or whatever, but more towards the other effects when I meant pain. Either way, the last part is your opinions.

And your opinions. Followed by more of your opinions. Nothing says the Wrath wasn't starting to have doubts. Not to my recollection anyway.

Those who make the claim have the burden of proof. That's the basis of logic.

2/3. And the viewpoint that the hands were lying is not an opinion? It is your responsibility to prove that they were lying, not my responsibility to prove a negative. The claim that the hands were lying is more of a claim than the hands were telling the truth.

I'm not sure the burden of proof requires him to prove something isn't true.

I'm fairly certain that hasn't been your argument in the past. Always asking me to prove that a character is right or telling the truth on a matter, dismissing in-universe opinions as fallible. Colonel Tobin, anyone?

Look the given explanation is that it was a voice. Challenging the given explanation is a larger claim than accepting it.

You can believe whatever you want. In the end it just goes down to which set of evidence you think is right. It's a pointless debate until we get some real definitive proof one way or the other.

I only have an issue with it when you try to use it to diminish the Hero's feat.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
1. Vitiate is not very sentimental at all, so his body must have some other value to it. Vitiate told Scourge that the price of immortality is pain, and that Scourge would eventually feel nothing like Vitiate himself.

2/3. And the viewpoint that the hands were lying is not an opinion? It is your responsibility to prove that they were lying, not my responsibility to prove a negative. The claim that the hands were lying is more of a claim than the hands were telling the truth.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
If the body dying causes him to be weakened, that's the value. As to the rest, good to know. It's been a long time since I've read Revan.

I didn't say they were lying as a definite fact. I said it was evidence that the body encountered was a Voice, but the rest of the evidence inclined me to believe they were lying. The Hands made the claim, the Emperor was not really killed, well as much as I believe Vitiate was killed(which is not that much), they offered nothing else as proof to back it up. That's the claim. I'm saying they should prove this claim because I don't believe it outweighs everything else laid out against them.

2. What other evidence is there stacked against them?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I only have an issue with it when you try to use it to diminish the Hero's feat.

What feat, Neph? Defeating a severely weakened Vitiate?

On an extremely powerful Force nexus, with Scourge saying that he would recover swiftly, after the Hero had to fight through legions of Sith and the Imperial Guard, warriors so deadly that even the mightiest of Sith simply surrender to their inevitable death at their hands.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
1. And the death of any other body his spirit inhabits wouldn't have the same effect on him?

2. What other evidence is there stacked against them?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
What does this have to do with anything? "He can be killed in other bodies, so why not let it happen."-What this says. It's not like Vitiate made a habit out of getting his Voices killed.

*sigh

2. That's not a valid answer

Originally posted by Emperordmb
1. He goes to extreme lengths to protect his true body that he doesn't do to protect the voice bodies.

2. That's not a valid answer

Originally posted by Nephthys
On an extremely powerful Force nexus,

One, which he has probably emptied of much of the resident force energies, because he needed them for his ritual - which was, for all we know, the main reason chosing that particular location in the first place.

with Scourge saying that he would recover swiftly,

Scourge had pretty much no idea how fast that recovery would happen. How should he? What Vitiate attempted had never been done before. Furthermore, the ritual was interrupted through the actions of the HoT on Corellia, which probably resulted in the weakening of Vitiate in the first place. And since the HoT travels from there to Dromund Kaas, there wasn't much time for recovery. Which is also pretty clear from the fact that Vitiate is still on location when the HoT arrives.

after the Hero had to fight through legions of Sith and the Imperial Guard, warriors so deadly that even the mightiest of Sith simply surrender to their inevitable death at their hands.

I certainly didn't see "legions" of the Imperial Guard there, so thanks for the exeggeration.

That aside: What makes the Imperial Guard so dangerous is the fact, that they can draw power from Vitiate himself, which is hardly an option, when the Emperor is either in need all of his power (attempting the ritual) or already in a weakened state (failing ritual). This absolute backing by the Emperor was also the possible reason for many to simply surrender to the Guard instead of fighting it (and risk a direct confrontation with either the Wrath or Vitiate himself).

Which means, the HoT was a Jedi Master fighting people who were all non force sensitives. I wonder how much their elite training is worth and how much effort it needs to deal with them, if one can take each and every single one of them down through the Force...

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Where does it say he doesn't go through lengths to protect it?

I already gave my reasons why I believe it is the real body. It wasn't enough for you obviously, but I gave my reasons.

2. All I've seen are reasons that it's possible. Not any reasons that suggest it's likely.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
1. The voices exist to protect his true body, so evidently his true body is more valuable in some way.

2. All I've seen are reasons that it's possible. Not any reasons that suggest it's likely. [/B]

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except that's never implied by anyone. Even going of that, I'd assume it would only be more useful for the rituals. Not the actual use of his power which is the only thing that matters here.

Okay.

2. Is that a concession or a dodge?

Originally posted by Nai
One, which he has probably emptied of much of the resident force energies, because he needed them for his ritual - which was, for all we know, the main reason chosing that particular location in the first place.

That's nothing but idle speculation. One doesn't empty a nexus of energy when they draw on it. The only thing that Vitiate is said to be drawing on is the energy from the millions or billions of deaths occurring across the galaxy. Next to that, he doesn't need to empty the Temple, if that's even possible (since iirc the power of the temple mostly comes from the ghosts entombed there). Nothing else is said to be feeding his ritual.

Originally posted by Nai
Scourge had pretty much no idea how fast that recovery would happen. How should he? What Vitiate attempted had never been done before. Furthermore, the ritual was interrupted through the actions of the HoT on Corellia, which probably resulted in the weakening of Vitiate in the first place. And since the HoT travels from there to Dromund Kaas, there wasn't much time for recovery. Which is also pretty clear from the fact that Vitiate is still on location when the HoT arrives.

You're correct about the ritual failing being what weakened Vitiate. It says so in the quest text, "You’ve learned that the Emperor is on Dromund Kaas, temporarily weakened by your efforts thwarting his plan for galactic annihilation."

Scourge has been by Vitiate's side for centuries. He likely knows how fast he can recover from expending vast amounts of energies. It's also a possibility that Vitiate told Scourge in his capacity as the Emperor's Wrath, i.e. that if he failed in his ritual Scourge would have to defend him for a certain amount of time spent recovering. Of course, recovery time from failing rituals could just be common knowledge to a Sith like Scourge.

Even jumping through hyperspace the trip to Dromund Kaas from Corellia would take a few hours. Not to mention all the time spent on the Republic organising their fleet for the assault. Then there's the fight through Kaas City and the flight to the temple, before the actual assault on the temple itself. It's quite a substantial amount of time for him to recover in. And we can see that even a tiny amount of time spent rescuing an ally in the middle of the mission give's Vitiate enough time to noticeably recover.

The Dark Temple is the most powerful Darkside Nexus Vitiate has access to at the time and has all his forces stationed at it to protect himself. I see no reason why he would leave it. Its the most defensible position he has and the best place for him to stay and recover in. And you're assuming he has a reason to leave. He didn't know the HoT would attack him. Hell, he was probably just waiting to try the ritual again.

Originally posted by Nai
I certainly didn't see "legions" of the Imperial Guard there, so thanks for the exeggeration.

That aside: What makes the Imperial Guard so dangerous is the fact, that they can draw power from Vitiate himself, which is hardly an option, when the Emperor is either in need all of his power (attempting the ritual) or already in a weakened state (failing ritual). This absolute backing by the Emperor was also the possible reason for many to simply surrender to the Guard instead of fighting it (and risk a direct confrontation with either the Wrath or Vitiate himself).

Which means, the HoT was a Jedi Master fighting people who were all non force sensitives. I wonder how much their elite training is worth and how much effort it needs to deal with them, if one can take each and every single one of them down through the Force...

The amount of enemies in an area is only gameplay mechanics. You think Vitiate would only protect himself with a scant few Imperial Guardsmen? No, he'd protect himself with as many of them as possible. And he has his stupid doomsday cult with him. In any case, Scourge notes that there are legions of Sith living in Kaas City, which the Knight has to fight through. That's what I was really referring to. Not to mention how practically every adult citizen in the city is a member of the military. Also a Lightsided Jedi Knight will purposefully draw the bulk of the enemy forces at themselves.

Incorrect, the Imperial Guard can only draw on Vitiates power when they are near him, and a lot of the time they are not near him. They carry out the Emperor's orders all over the galaxy. What makes them so dangerous is that they are "The ultimate non-Force sensitive fighters in the Empire" and are "unmatched in martial skill" (SWTOR Codex, The Imperial Guard). And the quote says nothing about the Wrath or the Emperor, but the Guardsmen themselves: "When confronted by the Imperial Guard, the mightiest of Sith have laid down their lightsabers and surrendered to the inevitable death offered by a guardsman's electrostaff" (SWTORE pg. 162). It's seems to be clearly insinuating that the death is inevitable at the hands of the guardsman's, not his masters. Hell, the HoT actually fights a Guardsman known to have killed 2 dozen Sith Lords earlier in the story. Also the IG are specifically trained to fight Jedi and Sith and have equipment suited to doing so. AND the HoT would be weakened by the Temple's nexus. I doubt it would be a cakewalk. We see how even master swordsmen like Meetra and Scourge were troubled in combat with them.

Also the HoT was just a Jedi Knight at this time. And if you're darksided Satele refuses to promote you to Master, in a nice Anakin call back.

Originally posted by Nai
Does it? As it is you that wants to suggest that Vitiate deviates from his own race standards in a very special way, it would be your task to back that assertion with proof. Unless you can do that, there is no reason to follow your line of thinking, is there?

Well I already have, Karpyshan said that Vitiate "was a pureblood, but after so many centuries of life he has little in common with ordinary Sith." So we already know that he does deviate from his own race in some or a lot of ways.

Originally posted by Nai
Totally didn't remember that - and I just went by the picture above. Has been ages since I played the HoT storyline.

It's pretty hilarious that you thought that was his actual head. Forget about facial appendages, he'd have facial brain tissue if that were true, lol. Cool though, I didn't know you'd played the game.

Originally posted by Nai
Actually, I was wrong there, I think.
Baras needed some time for research and planning to orchestrate his plan to trap the Voice. Also, if I remember correctly, the Voss mystic that would become the Voice was kidnapped from the planet shortly after its discovery [years before the events of SW:TOR]. I could be wrong there, of course. Would need some research on Baras' plans, I think. That could also explain why Vitiate was wearing a mask during his confrontation with the Jedi Strike Team. Revealing the Voss identity of his Voice would probably have led to investigations on the planet - and have weakened the Empire's presence there.

Yeah, I'm fuzzy on the details too to be honest. Sel Makor says that Baras came to him decades ago. Wookieepedia says Vitiate only came to Voss in the year the game is set. Other than that....

Since you're being so honest here, I will be too. I don't think this is that compelling either way. We have no idea what darkside corruption would do to a Voss, so the Voice appearing unaffected isn't that good as proof.

We do see another Voice in one of the comics though. No corruption.

Originally posted by Nai
That appears to be speculation, Neph.

I meant in terms of the game, I believe the Emperor is paler than its possible to get even with full darkside corruption. He seems ridiculously pale to me.

Originally posted by Nai
Again, Neph: Everything said outside official source material can be considered non-existant as far as evidence goes for debates here. You may want to recall Nick Gillard's statement that lightsaber forms (specifically Vaapad) didn't even exists. The authority of a Star Wars authors doesn't extend beyond the source material and even then, if he left something open for interpretation it is just that: open for interpretation.

Nice opinion there. I don't see why we should ignore the statement of one of the people who created the character. Nick Gillard is different. He's simply a stunt choreographer. He has little part in the creative process and no authority to speak on such matters. Karpyshan helped come up with the Emperor. Also you say later on that you don't discard the words of the Lead Writer, but you will discard Karpyshan's?

It doesn't really matter though, I can just argue that Vitiate had be corrupted over the centuries and barely resembles his race even without Karpyshan's quote. Until we get a concrete description of his appearance it's just a matter of opinion.

Originally posted by Nai
Non conclusive evidence, Neph. There is also no bump from a nose, so I suppose Vitiate is Lord Voldemort. Depending on the fit of the Mask, they could be hidden under it. If that even is his real body, which would be another deviation from his modus operandi of keeping Voices in the first place.

There is a bump for the nose, its just not very visible because the mask is black and it has that odd blindfold design.

This is his secret, cloaked fortress. The whole reason they attacked it was because they thought it was where is real body was hidden. Which could be true, idk.

Originally posted by Nai
His eyes were entirely black, Neph. While I can see the Iris turning red, I don't see how his sclera (the white stuff in a human eye) would go from black to white in the process.

I'm still waiting for proof that the entire eye was black.

Originally posted by Nai
You may want to check the typical features of the Sith species here (since I'm lacking any other source at the moment). Anything that deviates from those was caused by interbreeding with the human Dark Jedi. Which can be completely ruled out for the maternal side of Vitiate's family (non force-sensitive completely) and is rather unlikely, considering the Human Dark Jedi where dwelling mostly on the main planets of the Empire (Ziost).

For the rest of your examples: There are still some remarkable features that destinquish the Sith rather clearly from human beings - and most of that are protuding bone spurs, which also wouldn't disappear through Dark Side corruption.

"Typical" features, sure. But I've posted proof that they're not always present. And just because his mother was a non-force sensitive doesn't mean she had no human or Dark Jedi blood in her. I mean, Theron Shan has Revan's blood in him and not a drop of sensitivity. Force power isn't always down to genetics, as proved by Vitiate utterly outclassing his father for instance.

Protruding bone structures are again, not always present. See my past pictures. And again, Vitiate is completely unique so we don't know how his features could be affected by the dark side.

Originally posted by Nai
Because it wasn't the death that weakened him, but the failed ritual he attempted. He was already in a weakened condition when the HoT confronted him - otherwise the Jedi wouldn't have survived the encounter.

Yet as I've said, Scourge opined that he would recover from that failed ritual rather quickly. He's spent months recovering from his death though.

Plus why would he not be weakened by the fight when the Wrath killed him? Sel Makor was using his power in the fight.

Originally posted by Nai
Because we haven't seen body parts falling off because of Dark Side corruption? Please stop speculating without the slightest bit of evidence pointing in the direction of your thoughts.

And we've never seen anyone live with 1400 years of darkside corruption either. And we actually have seen Nihilus' body completely disintegrate from his dark power.

Which btw, is a point against your theory about Vitiates body being unaffected because his power was tied up in his essence. So was Nihilus', yet his body was still effected by it. The reason Vitiate's wasn't destroyed similarly is only because he did it better than Nihilus did.

Originally posted by Nai
Do you think that Vitiate's original body has a higher midi-chlorian count than any of his Voice bodies, Neph, given his prodigal talent in the force? That appears to be likely. So it does matter which body he was using - you just didn't get the point.

I'd say he likely was more powerful than most or all of his Voice's. And no, I got your point fine. I just don't think it matters. We've seen many people using more power than their midi-chlorians allow. Celeste Morne drew power from Muur, Nox drew power from ghosts, Nihilus and the Exile grew much more powerful than they were originally, all nexuses allow for boosts etc etc.

Originally posted by Nai
The detail you have missed, dear Neph, is the message send by servant one before Vitiate's confrontation with the HoT:

"We are again aware of the Voice. Preparations are being made to secure a new host, but the rituals take time." - Servant One

Do you think they saw what would happen to Vitiate before, and so lied to the Wrath about securing a new host body, while letting Vitiate run lose in his original body?

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. I think you're assuming that they knew about Vitiate's plans. He could have told them to find him a new Voice to make them think he'd need one and keep them busy while really preparing for his ritual. After which he wouldn't need a Voice at all.

Originally posted by Nai
Except the two messages from Servant One, with the first one claiming that they are finding a new host body for the Emperor after the Wrath killed the Voss body?

That aside, Neph: You're stretching it with your claims. The thing facing the Jedi Strike Team is also exclusively reffered to as "the Emperor" and not "his Voice". When the Voice is trapped on Voss, the terms are used interchangeably throughout the source material, because trapping the Voice trapped the Emperor as well. And if the Voice wields Vitiate's power, why destinquish Emperor and Voice on all occassions?

Except for fallible in-universe opinions, yes.

We don't know if the being who fought the Strike Team was the Emperor or his Voice, so that's not a mark against my argument. As for the distinction, it is solely that one is the real Emperor and one is his Voice. They are two separate bodies, with the same consciousness. It is still correct to refer to one as the Voice and the other, the Emperor. As is done in the game.

T-T-Triple post!

Originally posted by Nai
I'm not discarding the opinion of the Lead Write but your interpretation of it, when pretty much everything suggests that you are wrong.

Feel free to offer up a counter interpretation.

Originally posted by Nai
Limited in use of that power, Neph - not in accumulating it. What point of my metaphor was it you didn't understand? There is his essence (water reservoir) that can get more powerful (filled more and more) but the outlet of that reservoir (original body / host bodies) determine how much water (Force energy) can flow from the reservoir to the outside.

What do you think why it needed the Hand to find a new Voice body for Vitiate, if the Sith Emperor could - technically - just possess anybody. Could it be, that he was dependant on a sufficient force connection of the host body (e.g. a high enough Midichlorian count) to use it? Could it be that this is the very same thinking, that made Sidious strife for taking over Anakin Solo as a host body for his Dark Side essence, instead of chosing one of his own pawns or some random force sensible child?

Denying that idea is pretty much equal to suggesting that Jaden Korr is more powerful than Marka Ragnos.

I understand your lame metaphor fine. It's just wrong, because people have both accumulated and used more power than their normal bodies would allow. Remember the Scepter of Ragnos turning normal people into Sith? It's not something even remotely beyond Vitiate to make use of more power than his body would normally allow, or change is body to allow it to channel more power than normal. I've already proven that. Vitiate "vastly increased his capacity as a practitioner of the Force." The ritual of Nathema didn't just drain a ton of power and stick it in Vitiate, his ability to make use of that power was elevated as well.

Sidious couldn't do the same thing because evidently he didn't know the same technique Vitiate used to increase his capacity as a Force practitioner. Also I thought it was because his clones were tampered with and sabotaged that they died so fast. So he felt he needed Anakin's body. As I recall he was able to to possess one of his Dark Acolytes without the man dying from the strain. As for why it takes a while to find suitable Voice's, who knows? Perhaps the rituals put a lot of strain on the body or something. I mean, they are completely hollowing it out.

Not really. Because nothing was done to Tavion to allow her to use the Force beyond her means, like Vitiate did.

Originally posted by Nai
Fan speculation, Neph? It has been stated in a variety of canon sources, that the ability to channel the Force is influenced by the midi-chlorian count of a Force sensitive. The more midi-chlorians, the more powerful the Force user.

Why the hell should that principle not apply, when a Force user is using another beings body? And why are you even suggesting that - against every evidence available?

Throughput DF:JK it is constantly mentioned by a variety of persons that absorbing power from the Valley would turn Jerec into a Force (demi)god. So instead being limited by his body, he was really omnipotent, but just suffered some bad luck. And, as said before, Ragnos is less powerful than a freaking padawan and wasn't limited by Tavion's body, which was not weaker than his original one, but also nigh death at the point at which he started possessing it.

Because there are numerous examples of people exceeding their midi-chlorian count through various means. All this talk of Tavion and you're forgetting that the whole plot of the game was her creating an army of Dark Jedi out of non-force sensitives. And in the game before that Desann did the same thing with Sith alchemy, absorbed the power of the Valley of the Jedi into his followers and later absorbed the Force nexus on Yavin 4.

Originally posted by Nai
Is his personal force power ever expanding, Neph?
The question isn't whether or not that did "weaken" him. The fact is, that some of his power stayed with his children and was, therefor, not accessible by his Voice. And I don't know if spreading your conscience over hundreds of bodies would really make you - as an individual - stronger.

Yes. "In return, the Emperor draws on his servants strength in the Force and body to feed his ever increasing power, leaving his servants withered and frail." (SWTORE pg. 163)

Originally posted by Nai
Why would the make him use his own body versus the HoT, when the entire point of making Voices was to keep his original body save. So he deviates from his well established modus operandi that worked just fine for three centuries, after his Servants proclaim that he won't do that (announcing that they are just finding a new host body for the Voice). He then proceedes to conduct the most dangerous force ritual of his career in his original body (instead of protecting it by using a host) and confronts the HoT with the same body (despite of the danger that such a confrontation meant and the fact that such a confrontation led to the creation of the Voice in the first place). Then he has that "original body" killed, with his Servant's glossing over that to explain his absense.

This just happened, so that Neph can be right. 🙄

It's not as if Vitiate wanted to fight the HoT. So it's not as if he chose to do that in his original body. He was inadvertently vulnerable.