Originally posted by cdtmWhile the original intent of the first retcon in F4 #319 was to have Beyonder and Owen as sub-Cube being-level, the events of F4 Annual #27 threw that out the window completely.
? Special case?Isn't Beyonder established as below Cube beings after the Secret Wars is retconned?
...A retcon within a retcon, essentially. 👆
Originally posted by Galan007
^ While that was definitely the intent of the original retcon in F4 #319, the events of F4 Annual #27 pretty much retconned it away.
What about Molecule Man? Where does he stand compared to Cube beings and Beyonder?
I've seen the scans where MM forces Maker into Beyonder, then beats him in a fight... which cames across as a sort of a writer abusing his position to get his fanboy-ish beliefs out in print, but it happened..
Yeah, Beyonder's got more retcons/ups-and-downs than any other character I know of--writers simply don't know what to do with him, me thinks.
Hell, his powers seemed to be back to their 'classic' levels during Spider-Man and the Secret Wars(2010):
http://i.imgur.com/9WjapCd.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/sChuP6d.jpg
So who knows..? srug
Originally posted by cdtm
? Special case?Isn't Beyonder established as below Cube beings after the Secret Wars is retconned?
As far as Beyonder is concerned he's like a Cube being anomaly.
The only logical reasons I find why Beyonder is more powerful than Kubik or Cube beings:
Unlike other Cube beings who were developed properly (within the
confinement of a Cosmic Containment Unit) which also forces them
to self impose limitations upon reaching sentience (making Cube
beings universal at best we've seen) ...
the Beyonder was conceived by accident, and Not withIN a CCU.
Beyonder's essence/energy/power (which like all other Cube beings
necessitates a CCU to be nurtured correctly into maturity) instead
slipped out of the Beyond Realm and ended up exploding into a
universe occupying it's own space somewhere within the omniverse.
This also allowed Beyonder to develop free of restraints,
thus you have a Cube being (Beyonder) performing feats that
should belong to fully harnessed Cosmic Containment Units.
By the time Beyonder entered a CCU with Owen, it was just to become whole,
he had already developed a consciousness/essence of his own.
This is why Kosmos is almost like another being apart from Beyonder even though it's an incarnation of his. (sharing memories and all)
Thanos called it a prison for Beyonder's "unlimited power." (which Beyonder self-imposed)
Come to think of it, perhaps that was the the CCU in him acting out after entering the CCU with Owen,
perhaps this is why he transformed himself into Kosmos.
(basically a watered down version of himself akin to Cube beings limiting themselves upon sentience)
My, my, that makes sense.
Originally posted by Mr Master
It was. 🙁 ... Also, the CCU defeated Galactus' power and then some, and it had nothing to do with hunger.
We know that hungry Galactus is dramatically weaker than a recently fed Galactus. That much is indisputable fact, not up for debate.
Originally posted by cdtmHe/they were referring to the happenings of "Iron Man/X-O Manowar: In Heavy Metal", wherein a CCU was responsible for not only collapsing multiple omniversal planes of existence, but also restoring said planes...
How so?And that reference takes me back.. It wasn't a very good game, but by licensed standards it was actually pretty playable...
"The multiverseS topple over like dominoes--one omniversal plane implodes into nothingness--and the next--and the next--until the only thing left of reality--is nothing."
http://i.imgur.com/KaLRjPI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/zuVGeyp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/iL6C7eC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/F4AZ3y1.jpg
The Cube would later be used by Iron Man and X-O to restore the aforementioned:
http://i.imgur.com/1VTHUys.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yuY6eP0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/oZCwpIZ.jpg
Absolutely gargantuan display of power for the Cube--it's best showing in any medium, without a doubt. However, like Mr M said: it happened in a crossover, thus its canonicity is... Disputable, at best. In fact, it was released primarily as a promo-book for a video game of the same name(Acclaim owned the rights at the time.)
^ 👆
Originally posted by EpicurusGalactus was hungry when it did so.
Originally posted by EpicurusWe know that hungry Galactus is dramatically weaker than a recently fed Galactus. That much is indisputable fact, not up for debate.
Although, the first post of mine you replied to has nothing to do with Galactus' hunger.
Reed gestured, and Galactus was re-created anew. (this happened after Doom was stomped)
Uatu also stated that the CCU was beyond Galactus. (after Reed re-created G)
I remember a Marvunapp bio saying that that particular crossover involved Earth-616.
Originally posted by Mr Master
So, where exactly is it that I deny something?I requested scans, scans were posted and what? What?
I gave a thumbs up, and continued on my main course, the only avenue I followed the entire time from the very beginning:You proved it was constricted to 616, (I didn't know that) but it wasn't the crux of my point.
You didn't know what was constricted to 616?
Yes, you gave a thumbs up, but you still denied it (not in that post, but the previous one; and in the previous one i still posted that bio which should have settled it).
Anyway, let's just settle this here: Based on the evidence posted, do you agree that the cube's full potential was universal only, back then? If yes (and you should agree, because the evidence speaks for itself), then the argument is finished. And nothing more should be said.
Originally posted by cdtm
What about Molecule Man? Where does he stand compared to Cube beings and Beyonder?
Just something to add:
At first, Owen/Beyonder were below Kubik (despite the fact that their Secret Wars 2 feats were still canon) since Kubik defeated the Beyonder; he even said that his power dwarfs his as i recall. Then when they evolved (after they merged), they apparently got more powerful. And Owen was made > Beyonder (when they were half-cubes, Beyonder was > Owen, this was evident since in SW 2, Beyonder defeated him and since the retcon says that Owen merely had a "small" portion of the cube's energies, while Beyonder had most of it).
In regards to Owen's standing compared to other cube beings: It was confirmed in FF annual #27 (same issue where their trans multiversal fight happened, which Galan posted) that Molecule Man's potential power dwarfs Kubik's:
http://i.imgur.com/Mf8rV1q.jpg?1
btw, Kubik was implied to be multiversal in Avengers #290.
Originally posted by operator616I remember a Marvunapp bio saying that that particular crossover involved Earth-616.
Originally posted by operator616You didn't know what was constricted to 616?
Originally posted by operator616Yes, you gave a thumbs up, but you still denied it
(not in that post, but the previous one; and in the previous one i still posted that bio which should have settled it).
1) I didn't deny jack! So, again you're still talking fantasies.
2) Actually, your bio would have never settled anything. Since on panel > bios.
It was the on panel statements I accepted first, (posted by Galan first) then the bio as a corroboration.
What I did disagree with, was your stance on Thanos going all out to impress Death.
I stated, "he shouldn't have allowed himself to be defeated" if he was on an impression campaign, even if initially that was his aim.
So, pay attention friend before you erroneously yet again, accuse me fallaciously.
Originally posted by operator616Anyway, let's just settle this here: Based on the evidence posted, do you agree that the cube's full potential was universal only, back then? If yes (and you should agree, because the evidence speaks for itself), then the argument is finished. And nothing more should be said.
I already agreed that Thanos became the universe and it was solely constricted to 616.
Again below: (bottom of page 3)
Originally posted by Mr Master
You proved it was constricted to 616, (I didn't know that) but it wasn't the crux of my point.
It still doesn't change the fact that he was God.
That means to me, whatever you're capable of outside 616 is nice, but if you step into 616 you get stomped.
Originally posted by operator616btw, Kubik was implied to be multiversal in Avengers #290.
I'd have to guess the concept of "Synergy" comes into play here.
^ Yeah, ive heard that before.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Awesome. I'd like to see that so I can use it as future reference.
I already showed it to you in the Phoenix vs Odin (iirc) thread to prove that a scan i provided from that comic is canon, which you were denying.
Anyway, here's the Marvunapp page:
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/earthcrossoverall.htm
go to the "what is earth crossover and why aren't all crossovers with other companies included" part, and you'll find this:
X-O Manowar/Iron Man (involved Earth-616 and Earth-Valiant merging)
Originally posted by Mr Master
maybe I confused you the way I worded it
You confused me by continually saying that Thanos is God, which is why whether he is universal or multiversal is irrelevant or something like that.
I took that as you denying that Thanos was merely universal.
Anyway, since we agree that the CCU was only universal back then, nothing needs to be said anymore.
Originally posted by operator616^ Yeah, ive heard that before.
Originally posted by operator616I already showed it to you in the Phoenix vs Odin (iirc) thread to prove that a scan i provided from that comic is canon,
which you were denying.
You need to smoke some good shit son and get happy.
Originally posted by operator616Anyway, here's the Marvunapp page:
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/earthcrossoverall.htm
go to the "what is earth crossover and why aren't all crossovers with other companies included" part, and you'll find this:
Also, that's all you needed to post, there was no need for the irrelevant recall.
You should remind yourself of the several times I admitted I was wrong and you were right about a detail.
Of course, when the shoe is on your foot, you simply slip away without conceding.
I have several saved links to threads where this has occurred, let me know.
I mean, since your gonna continue to spit on my name by making me synonymous with obtuseness.
Yea, like bringing up this "denying" horse shit concerning another thread, which is a WTF here.
Which is funny cause it's something that I'm known for hating.
I regularly use the term: Intransigence, to address such behavior. (meaning, dismissing/not accepting On Panel evidence)
Originally posted by operator616You confused me by continually saying that Thanos is God, which is why whether he is universal or multiversal is irrelevant or something like that.
I took that as you denying that Thanos was merely universal.
Anyway, since we agree that the CCU was only universal back then, nothing needs to be said anymore.
And if you return with more personal attacks, I'll swim in the mud with ya till the end.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Good lord, you can't post without adding a little shitty remark?You need to smoke some good shit son and get happy.
Thank you, I'll read it.
Also, that's all you needed to post, there was no need for the irrelevant recall.
You should remind yourself of the several times I admitted I was wrong and you were right about a detail.
Of course, when the shoe is on your foot, you simply slip away without conceding.
I have several saved links to threads where this has occurred, let me know.I mean, since your gonna continue to spit on my name by making me synonymous with obtuseness.
Yea, like bringing up this "denying" horse shit concerning another thread, which is a WTF here.
Which is funny cause it's something that I'm known for hating.
I regularly use the term: Intransigence, to address such behavior. (meaning, dismissing/not accepting On Panel evidence)
I think you're misunderstanding my intention here. First off, in that particular debate, you weren't denying evidence; you were merely denying its canonicity because it's a crossover and you had every right to do so.
So again: you weren't denying its canonciity after i posted the Marvunapp page. Just before, and you have the right to do so.
So i was using the term "denial" in the sense that you weren't accepting it being canon based on it being a crossover and nothing more. I never meant to insult you, i merely added that detail to help you recall and to say that i posted it before.
Same thing with the "moot point" and "faulty logic" insults which you are accusing me of. They weren't meant to insult you. I assure you. It's just that you see insults/personal attacks every time i say something. When in fact, that's the last thing on my mind.
I have absolutely no reason to just randomly bash you or anyone else on this forum. That's not my style. I don't come here to fight or insult.
Im out. Have a good day.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Well, an amped "hungry" Galactus empowered Doom to be exact.
Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree.Although, the first post of mine you replied to has nothing to do with Galactus' hunger.
Reed gestured, and Galactus was re-created anew. (this happened after Doom was stomped)
Uatu also stated that the CCU was beyond Galactus. (after Reed re-created G)
He restored Galactus back to normal after catching Doom off-guard. It's not recreation, as much as just undoing Doom's shenanigans via reality warping.
I don't give much credence to Uatu's claims. This is the same guy who has, despite the repeated monologue of being bound to an unbreakable vow of non-interference, broken his vow like a million times on-panel.
Originally posted by operator616I think you're misunderstanding my intention here. First off, in that particular debate, you weren't denying evidence; you were merely denying its canonicity because it's a crossover and you had every right to do so.
So again: you weren't denying its canonciity after i posted the Marvunapp page. Just before, and you have the right to do so.
So i was using the term "denial" in the sense that you weren't accepting it being canon based on it being a crossover and nothing more. I never meant to insult you, i merely added that detail to help you recall and to say that i posted it before.
You should use the term: ... "Skeptical" instead. (as in, 'you were skeptical'😉
"Deny" is like refusing to believe something that is/proven true, which = to a hard headed one track mind. (intransigence)
Originally posted by operator616Same thing with the "moot point" and "faulty logic" insults which you are accusing me of. They weren't meant to insult you. I assure you. It's just that you see insults/personal attacks every time i say something. When in fact, that's the last thing on my mind.
I have absolutely no reason to just randomly bash you or anyone else on this forum. That's not my style. I don't come here to fight or insult.
Im out. Have a good day.
But I also do snap back when I feel someone is trying to taint my name.
I love this place and I'm not having it when I built my bones through years of participation.
Although that's neither here nor there now.
Anyway, I do appreciate this/your post, we can now go back to: friends
Originally posted by EpicurusBased on what do you believe he was amped? That doesn't even make any sense honestly speaking.
Regardless of the power of this amp, it's an amp.
Originally posted by EpicurusIt does, because he was hungry in that instance.
He restored Galactus back to normal after catching Doom off-guard. It's not recreation, as much as just undoing Doom's shenanigans via reality warping.
btw, When you warp reality, you re-order space-time-matter.
Originally posted by EpicurusI don't give much credence to Uatu's claims. This is the same guy who has, despite the repeated monologue of being bound to an unbreakable vow of non-interference, broken his vow like a million times on-panel.
I think his statement was justified imo.
Reed also stated that Doom would be master of the universe with just the CCU.
Originally posted by Mr Master
The Ultimate Machine, the Sacred Helix of Randac & the Cosmic Control Rod.Regardless of the power of this amp, it's an amp.
No it's not. The CCU is the only thing which should provide a reasonable boost when added to Galactus' "hungry" power-level, but seeing how Doom discarded it immediately after acquiring what he wanted.....
Originally posted by Mr Master
He re-created Galactus anew, who wasn't portrayed as being hungry anymore.
Odin was part of the party, so, he got twisted likewise.
Yeah, that's definitely a feat, but I doubt that in modern times a cosmic cube would have the juice to so gesturely manipulate Odin's form against his will.
Originally posted by Mr Master
btw, When you warp reality, you re-order space-time-matter.That's cool. But the writer had just made Reed remake Galactus, and tp'd all of Earth while choosing to allow G and Uatu to by pass the effects.
I think his statement was justified imo.
Reed also stated that Doom would be master of the universe with just the CCU.
Yes, and I don't believe that said feat puts him above and beyond Galactus definitely. Franklin Richards' power has been used twice to revive Galactus now, and neither time did his powers get depleted or were lost(the Abraxas shit was retconned by Hickman). Yet nobody in their right mind would go about claiming that Franklin Richards is above Galactus. Except for maybe Id. And me. Since I am such a big Franklin Richards fanboy.😎
I respectfully disagree.
Then why did Doom go to all the trouble of acquiring Galactus' power in that arc? Heck, why bother with the other devices at all if the cube alone can get the job done? Imo, that arc was very inconsistent.
