Originally posted by Ushgarak
If Stannis thinks he is championing anything, it is merely the idea of the Red God. Stannis himself is an atheist.
I do remember Stannis saying some very atheistic things regarding the gods but he seems to be one of those...uh...warm agnostics. He goes through the religious motions but isn't sure. At least that's my impression.
Originally posted by Robtard
I don't think Bran has much to do with R'hllor. To me is seems that GRRM is going to make Jon Azor Ahai reborn and Stannis is just a false idol so to speak.Now I'm uncertain if Melisandre knew this all along and was just using him and his insane wife to further her ends.
Do you think Melisandre was lying about that vision she had (which implicated Bran as the Great Other's champion) to manipulate Stannis into doing stuff...like she does with everything?
Originally posted by Robtard
I don't think Bran has much to do with R'hllor. To me is seems that GRRM is going to make Jon Azor Ahai reborn and Stannis is just a false idol so to speak.Now I'm uncertain if Melisandre knew this all along and was just using him and his insane wife to further her ends.
She doesn't. Melisandre is kind of dim, and constantly messes up the interpretations of the visions R'hllor sends her. This is made painfully obvious when she keeps asking the fire to give her a vision of R'hllor's Champion (Stannis in her mind) and "all she saw was Snow."
She's still thinking its Stannis even though all signs point to Jon.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I do remember Stannis saying some very atheistic things regarding the gods but he seems to be one of those...uh...warm agnostics. He goes through the religious motions but isn't sure. At least that's my impression.
He was absolutely explicit- he stopped believing in all gods when his parents died, and he was saying this via way of explanation to Davos as to why he changed his faith- the answer being he has no faith at all.
You can try and read Stannis as lying here but I very much doubt it- it's a strong piece of characterisation for him that the series has sadly not duplicated.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Feats of magic. Numerous, even. Well, and the fact that Melisandre and others say they have seen R'Hllor in visions.Also, we know some beings of magical power exist: the shades that killed people, the demon thing that Varys
sawheard when that sorcerer dude was burning his balls.*The beings are there. Sure, they are subtle, but there are some sort of magical beings at play in the background.
Then this particular set of magic is R'hllor. Concepts of dieties do not have to be localized to a corporeal being.
I'm not convinced. Sure, the priests may believe in R'Hllor but that alone does not mean he exists in any metaphysical sense. I find it more likely that the magic of the Red Priests is their own rather than merely that of a god for various reasons.
Now sure, some supernatural beings do exist. You bring up the “voice” Varys heard. Then there are the Greenseers that were worshiped as the Old Gods. But gods such as R’hllor or the Seven? Perhaps they are based on ancient heroes. For example, I could easily see R’hllor being some ancient and powerful Valyrian sorcerer who has since been deified. But gods in the metaphysical sense (or as you say similar to the Daedric Princes)? I’m not convinced and fully expect GRRM to keep it ambiguous.
Originally posted by Nephthys
She doesn't. Melisandre is kind of dim, and constantly messes up the interpretations of the visions R'hllor sends her. This is made painfully obvious when she keeps asking the fire to give her a vision of R'hllor's Champion (Stannis in her mind) and "all she saw was Snow."She's still thinking its Stannis even though all signs point to Jon.
I dunno if 'dim' is fair- in shock is more like it. She'd dedicated her entire existence to the idea that Stannis was the one.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
He was absolutely explicit- he stopped believing in all gods when his parents died, and he was saying this via way of explanation to Davos as to why he changed his faith- the answer being he has no faith at all.You can try and read Stannis as lying here but I very much doubt it- it's a strong piece of characterisation for him that the series has sadly not duplicated.
That's fair. I do remember his atheistic statements. Some of his actions, though, indicate that he might be lying about his position on the Gods. He certainly tolerates Melisandre a bit more than just a luke-warm patronage.
Originally posted by ares834
I'm not convinced. Sure, the priests may believe in R'Hllor but that alone does not mean he exists in any metaphysical sense. I find it more likely that the magic of the Red Priests is their own rather than merely that of a god for various reasons.Now sure, some supernatural beings do exist. You bring up the “voice” Varys heard. Then there are the Greenseers that were worshiped as the Old Gods. But gods such as R’hllor or the Seven? Perhaps they are based on ancient heroes. For example, I could easily see R’hllor being some ancient and powerful Valyrian sorcerer who has since been deified. But gods in the metaphysical sense (or as you say similar to the Daedric Princes)? I’m not convinced and fully expect GRRM to keep it ambiguous.
No, no, I agree with you. I said pretty much the same thing, earlier. R'Hllor may not even exist as a corporeal entity. Could just be a force of nature that sorcerers tap into. We really don't know, at this point. But real magical beings exist in GRRM's world.
Originally posted by ares834
When?The only plan of theirs that I can think of that may have failed was what happened to
Spoiler:but then who know what the intended to do with it.
Viserys and the Dathraki
They expected Dany to die and for Viserys and Drogo to invade Westeros. Instead the complete opposite happened. Viserys being killed also complicated the shit out of the plan to marry him to Arianne Martell and form an alliance that way. They didn't want civil war to start as seen in the Arya chapter in the dungeons but failed to delay the process and in general Varys failed to control the situation in King's Landing. They failed to deliver Aegon or Tyrion to Daenerys and the former instead invaded ahead of schedule and will probably die. I think there may be one or two other things as well.
The whole Viserys plot seemed to be nothing more than a back up plan. Aegon seemed to be their big plan.
And Varys certainly did not fail "to control the situation in King's Landing". Yes, the war started before he intended, but he has since kept the kingdom in a state of war and chaos.
Were their hiccups in their plots, sure but they seem to be mostly minor. Varys's endgame (whatever it is) still seems to be in full motion.
Aegon was the backup, I thought. Viserys was the original plan, as seen in the Arya chapter they seemed to genuinely want him and Drogo to invade soon and they'd secretly betrothed him and Arianne. They might have planned to kill him off for the more.... pleasant Aegon at some point, but he was the initial Targ claim.
Varys failed to prevent the King's death, he failed to stop the war from sparking and he failed to save Ned. The situation got out of his control.
There's no definitive answer to the Varys/Illyrio/Viserys/Aegon conundrum yet. There do seem to be two separate plans here that Varys and Illyrio are messing around with- but dismissing the Viserys one as a back-up when that part of the plan included bringing the entirety of Dorne onside seems unlikely. However, Doran seems to know nothing of Aegon. It's very twisty.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Aegon was the backup, I thought. Viserys was the original plan, as seen in the Arya chapter they seemed to genuinely want him and Drogo to invade soon and they'd secretly betrothed him and Arianne. They might have planned to kill him off for the more.... pleasant Aegon at some point, but he was the initial Targ claim.
Aegon is the one they were grooming from pretty much since birth. It seems he is the one that Varys and Illyrio wanted to set on the throne.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Varys failed to prevent the King's death, he failed to stop the war from sparking and he failed to save Ned. The situation got out of his control.
He did. However, war was ultimately what they wanted. So while the war started before he wanted, Varys has kept it going.
Originally posted by NemeBro
We have no notion of what Varys' endgame really is. It must also be said that a comparison to Littlefinger is a bit unfair considering how Varys is operating on a greater scale based on what we can see.
Really? I mean, Petyr's goals/ambitions are less known to us than Varys'. We have a decent idea and can make "safer" assumption but Baelish is an utter enigma, in terms of what "game" he's playing.
That makes Littlefinger more interesting to me, simply because I don't know yet and speculation with/alongside anticipation can be more entertaining than knowing. In this case, for me, it definitely is.
Off-topic: Also, I've noticed a lot of people recently portraying Baelish as being this evil, horrible manipulator in comparison to Varys. I never understood this, especially due to Varys' dispatching of Kevan and Pycelle in ADwD. Perhaps this is because reader's view Varys' intent as noble (not wanting to undo his work to destabilize Cersei's influence) but we don't know Baelish's intent so the assumption that he is a consistently nefarious dude seems to be a shaky one.