Khan Noonien Singh vs. Palpatine

Originally posted by The Scenario
Prove it, quan. Post the quotes.

Not enough to resist lightning, sorry.

Based off which lightning feats ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
I don't care enough to prove them again. I know it occurred.

Based off which lightning feats ?

You never proved it in the first place. We both know you're lying.

Based on the lightning disabling Windu and tossing Yoda around. It strikes with more force than a stun blast.

Originally posted by The Scenario
You never proved it in the first place. We both know you're lying.

Based on the lightning disabling Windu and tossing Yoda around. It strikes with more force than a stun blast.

Windu was defenseless and it can knock someone back but he was thrown outside. He also had his arm cut off by someone else.

😂

Originally posted by quanchi112
Jedi aren't faster than blaster bolts. At no point do they move faster than blasted bolts. They simply can move before the bolts hit them. Khan has evaded phaser fire as well. We see that Jedi and sith are quick with their sabers but without them they aren't any faster than Pre, Jango or any other skilled combatant in hand to hand fighting.

Because at certain points he appears or reacts faster than others. Who fights at the same speed the entire time ? We see his attacks were quicker than the shit Jedi could deal with but not fast enough to defeat Windu. Windu was the best Jedi there and he disarmed palaptine. This isn't rocket science.

Incorrect. Shitty opponents get their blaster fire reflected back into them but that wasn't the case with Jango. He was skilled so this did not occur. Saying a droid and Jango are around the same skill level because their blasts hit their targets and forgetting to note their maneuverability, intelligence, feats, etc. to pain this false picture that they are special is ignoring common sense. Based off what can Palpatine reflect Khan's Boolean blasts back onto him ?

So you admit he focused on blocking a shot and ignore that he wasn't skilled enough wise to stop Jango Fett. Be serious. What you're saying makes no sense. If his attention was solely on Dooku then he wouldn't have blocked a single shot.

I've decimated all your excuse making, hyperbolic propaganda, and delusional points into the ground. It's a perfect time to make your exit speech. Flee like Yoda did after he failed. Coward.

The Klingons aren't feeble. The enterprise crew had no shot according to uhura. The droids are feeble. The droids were taken out by jar jar flopping around. That's what happened to feeble opponents. Khan also easily disarmed Spock who has feats as well. Taking out two ships and 20-30 plus Klingons is superhuman. The movie flat out smacked the viewer in the end with this.

💃

Well this is the last time I'm responding to your trolling since time and time again you've been proven wrong with evidence and simply chose to ignore it.

Jedi's reactions are faster than bolts. They are fast enough to deflect dozens of bolts shot at them.

Those Jedi Sidious killed with superior speed have speed feats that surpass Khan's speed feats. This isn't rocket science as well. 👆

Sidious doesn't have to reflect it back at Khan to kill him. He simply can defend himself with his lightsaber and perhaps even without it. Vader did it in ESB and he is confirmed to be %80 of Sidious by GL himself. So Khan literally has no way of harming him where Sidious can kill him with his telekinesis or lightning. Fail to provide some feats that suggest this isn't an instawin for Sidious and I will automatically accept your concession.

He was looking at Dooku and was there to kill him. His last minute reaction to Jango is actually a good feat for the Jedi so stop trying to twist things.

Khan's feats and the capabilities of the Klingon's are nothing compared to what the Jedi did in SW and Sidious is the top dog of this franchise. I almost feel bad that your argument is based on these miserable accomplishments of Khan.

Originally posted by Sinious
Well this is the last time I'm responding to your trolling since time and time again you've been proven wrong with evidence and simply chose to ignore it.

Jedi's reactions are faster than bolts. They are fast enough to deflect dozens of bolts shot at them.

Those Jedi Sidious killed with superior speed have speed feats that surpass Khan's speed feats. This isn't rocket science as well. 👆

Sidious doesn't have to reflect it back at Khan to kill him. He simply can defend himself with his lightsaber and perhaps even without it. Vader did it in ESB and he is confirmed to be %80 of Sidious by GL himself. So Khan literally has no way of harming him where Sidious can kill him with his telekinesis or lightning. Fail to provide some feats that suggest this isn't an instawin for Sidious and I will automatically accept your concession.

He was looking at Dooku and was there to kill him. His last minute reaction to Jango is actually a good feat for the Jedi so stop trying to twist things.

Khan's feats are and the capabilities of the Klingon's are nothing compared to what the Jedi did in SW franchise and Sidious is the top dog of this franchise. I almost feel bad that you're argument is based on these miserable accomplishments of Khan.

Depends on the skill level of the Jedi/sith. Points to Fett vs. Jedi and order 66. It also depends on the skill level of the guy shooting but it eas pretty obvious the droids were greater than the combined might of the Jedi in attack of the clones had Yoda not shown up to back them.

No, they do not. Should I time out how long sidious' movements lasted before he killed those weak Jedi ? Hell, it took Sidious longer to kill Opress who didn't have extensive training and was always a brute first. In esb we see that Han is sporting a blaster not a phaser rifle or a Boolean gun so not even close. We also see Han Solo fired off multiple attacks before Vader could react. Saying he literally has no way of harming him is borderline retardation trolling. Watch the Klingon scene and how easily he disposes of 20-30 Klingons and two ships. Khan also resisted 8 stun shots and the force lightning hasn't killed anyone directly.

Khan takes on Klingons and subjugates Spock, Uhura, and Kirk.

55 seconds in Khan begins his assault of the Klingons.

1:17 in: Khan's plasma mini cannon shows its impressive firepower capable of taking out the Klingon ship with one blast.

1:26--1:37: Kirk takes on a Klingon in hand to hand combat while we see Spock taking one with an accurate blast from his weapon.

1:39--1:41: Khan use his plasma cannon gun to take out an incoming threat and having the superhuman awareness to then switch to long ranged threats with his other weapon.

1:47--1:48: We see Khan taking two Klingons out simultaneously.

1:51: Here we see Kirk shoot down a Klingon.

2:02--2:06: The Klingon reinforcements arrive onto the scene.

2:12--2:15: Kirk's strength give him the breakaway he needs to take out the Klingon before being overwhelmed by the next two.

2:18--2:21: The damage the plasma cannon does to a humanoid body with body armor.

2:25--2:27: Spock, Uhura, and Kirk regroup after Khan destroys the Klingons seek refuge. They are in awe of Khan's fighting skill and abilities.

2:28--2:29: Khan's plasma cannon destroying another ship.

2:40--2:48: Khan eradicating more Klingons.

2:51--2:54: Khan's amazing athleticism. Look at the superhuman distance he jumps with heavy clothing on as well using amazing accuracy while wielding his plasma rifle weapon.

2:45--2:46: Khan shows off his quickly his plasma rifle can fire off successive blasts. These are much quicker than the laser blasts Jango rattled off in a longer time span against Obi Wan.
^^Very Important

2:55--3:01: Khan's incredible skill and hand to hand combat by decimating the Klingons in close quarters combat.

3:07--3:08: Khan easily shoots Spock's gun away before he can react.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K0cFLb-JmaQ

No, he was focused on Jango yet not quick enough to stop Jango as he's impressive in the Star Wars universe, sport.

False. Windu, Anakin, Kenobi, Padme, and numerous other Jedi were going to be overwhelmed by fodder droids on geonosis. That's awful. Khan himself took out numerous Klingons, ships on their home world while he also subdued the enterprise crew without any help.

I actually had occasion to review the bits of Star Trek Into Darkness relative to this thread. Khan’s damage soak is impressive and the boolean gun is formidable in both output and rate-of-fire, but as long as Sheev can wield the Force offensively, neither are going to matter much at all.

The Force, being omnipresent and ubiquitous, needn’t be aimed or directed so much as summoned. Between them, Savage Opress and Darth Maul have removed starships from cliff-sides, blown apart prison cells by tensing and flexing, incited cave-ins, etc. and so forth. Sidious was able to telekinetically pin them both simultaneously against their will and kept them immobilized despite their apparent efforts to break free.

While laughing.

The ability to simultaneously humiliate two powerful adepts each capable of manipulating large objects massing many tons is well beyond any phenomenon Khan has overcome. Not being Force sensitive himself, he is incapable of resisting or deflecting Force attacks.

So it is indeed a very simple matter of Sheev immobilizing Khan and killing him in a number of ways. The boolean gun is inconsequential; there’s nothing to suggest Khan’s physical strength or the gun’s strap is capable of resisting a power that effortlessly cowed the aforementioned two powerful adepts each capable of manipulating large objects massing many tons. It can either be destroyed or relieved of Khan’s possession at any time, to say nothing of Sheev’s ability to render Khan incapable of firing said weapon even if it never leaves his hand. {Hard to squeeze a trigger when you can’t move your fingers.}

But even without the Force, Sidious still enjoys a healthy advantage. Savage Opress has strength feats comparable to Khan’s even prior to his transformation at the hands of Mother Talzin. {I know people have cited his feats in “Monster” vs. Asajj Ventress and the curbstomp that was his assault on the Jedi outpost in that same episode.} And yet Sidious is able to consistently resist and even overpower Savage when they duel. The Force endows Sheev with superhuman attributes—a strength that is at the very least comparable to Khan’s {though likely in considerable excess} and an agility and flexibility that far outstrips his.

As long as Sidious has the Force, this is a completely lopsided affair. That lesser Jedi were gunned down in Order 66 in a sudden betrayal by ostensible allies has no bearing on this scenario: Sheev is not a lesser Jedi, and Khan is neither an ostensible ally who has the benefit of the element of surprise. That lesser Jedi have succumbed to large numbers of overwhelming firepower attacking from multiple angles and directions is also irrelevant to this thread as—again—Sheev is not a lesser Jedi and Khan is not a large number of anything attacking from multiple angles and directions.

Is the boolean gun capable of killing Sheev? Sure. But it has to hit him first and it simply won’t: not only is he capable of evading the attack to some degree, but he’s capable of simply reaching out and snatching it out of Khan’s hand and beating him to death with it. Actually, given Dooku’s frequent telekinetic manipulation of gunmen {The Clone Wars sees Dooku force people to gun themselves down with their own weapons}, it wouldn’t surprise me if Sheev makes Khan put his own lips around the barrel and squeeze the trigger.

He can’t win this. The Force is far too great an advantage with someone like Sheev in single combat against someone who is Forceless.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, I am not. You annoyed digi and he clearly said I outdebated you but you reppped a much more powerful character according to him I was ten percent better.

We know you can lie, quan. Now try saying something true.

Windu was defenseless and it can knock someone back but he was thrown outside. He also had his arm cut off by someone else.

😂

And? It's clear that the lightning hit much harder than the stun blast.

Originally posted by The Scenario
We know you can lie, quan. Now try saying something true.

And? It's clear that the lightning hit much harder than the stun blast.

Now it isn't. The lightning's duration was much longer than the stun blasts and it shot him into the window. We have seen force lightning set to kill not even phase Luke after more than ten seconds on him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I actually had occasion to review the bits of Star Trek Into Darkness relative to this thread. Khan’s damage soak is impressive and the boolean gun is formidable in both output and rate-of-fire, but as long as Sheev can wield the Force offensively, neither are going to matter much at all.

The Force, being omnipresent and ubiquitous, needn’t be aimed or directed so much as summoned. Between them, Savage Opress and Darth Maul have removed starships from cliff-sides, blown apart prison cells by tensing and flexing, incited cave-ins, etc. and so forth. Sidious was able to telekinetically pin them both simultaneously against their will and kept them immobilized despite their apparent efforts to break free.

While laughing.

The ability to simultaneously humiliate two powerful adepts each capable of manipulating large objects massing many tons is well beyond any phenomenon Khan has overcome. Not being Force sensitive himself, he is incapable of resisting or deflecting Force attacks.

So it is indeed a very simple matter of Sheev immobilizing Khan and killing him in a number of ways. The boolean gun is inconsequential; there’s nothing to suggest Khan’s physical strength or the gun’s strap is capable of resisting a power that effortlessly cowed the aforementioned two powerful adepts each capable of manipulating large objects massing many tons. It can either be destroyed or relieved of Khan’s possession at any time, to say nothing of Sheev’s ability to render Khan incapable of firing said weapon even if it never leaves his hand. {Hard to squeeze a trigger when you can’t move your fingers.}

But even without the Force, Sidious still enjoys a healthy advantage. Savage Opress has strength feats comparable to Khan’s even prior to his transformation at the hands of Mother Talzin. {I know people have cited his feats in “Monster” vs. Asajj Ventress and the curbstomp that was his assault on the Jedi outpost in that same episode.} And yet Sidious is able to consistently resist and even overpower Savage when they duel. The Force endows Sheev with superhuman attributes—a strength that is at the very least comparable to Khan’s {though likely in considerable excess} and an agility and flexibility that far outstrips his.

As long as Sidious has the Force, this is a completely lopsided affair. That lesser Jedi were gunned down in Order 66 in a sudden betrayal by ostensible allies has no bearing on this scenario: Sheev is not a lesser Jedi, and Khan is neither an ostensible ally who has the benefit of the element of surprise. That lesser Jedi have succumbed to large numbers of overwhelming firepower attacking from multiple angles and directions is also irrelevant to this thread as—again—Sheev is not a lesser Jedi and Khan is not a large number of anything attacking from multiple angles and directions.

Is the boolean gun capable of killing Sheev? Sure. But it has to hit him first and it simply won’t: not only is he capable of evading the attack to some degree, but he’s capable of simply reaching out and snatching it out of Khan’s hand and beating him to death with it. Actually, given Dooku’s frequent telekinetic manipulation of gunmen {The Clone Wars sees Dooku force people to gun themselves down with their own weapons}, it wouldn’t surprise me if Sheev makes Khan put his own lips around the barrel and squeeze the trigger.

He can’t win this. The Force is far too great an advantage with someone like Sheev in single combat against someone who is Forceless.

Removing the starship from a cliff side was fleeing from Hondo and his shitty pirate friends. Granted Maul and his buddy had his traitorous pirates turn along with Kenobi but all in all it wasn't a feat to dramatically turn the tide but instead trying to flee from them. Tk can tear structures apart but it takes time, focus and even when we see it done it doesn't crush the opposition as evidenced by the feat Gideon referenced.

Now let's take the same two force users and add a very impressive bounty up Hunter named Pre Vizsla and we see even these three badasses needed help against bounty hunters and fodder who possessed no force powers whatsoever.

Around the 2 minute mark we see they are retreating until they get numbers and aid from Pre's bounty hunter allies. We later see Maul is disarmed and with the help of the other two about to come out on top against these bounty hunters but they still provide the weapons to escape from this group.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1P-kfr7uCGI

Khan didn't need any help despite no aid from anyone and yet Maul, Opress, and Vizsla needed numbers and bounty hunter help to turn the tide. This is my point. Don't let the feats fool you that the force users we have seen thus far don't pack the formidability of Khan.

Palpatine did defeat these two opponents who possess none of the weaponry, tactical acumen relevant to Khan. Palpatine beat two inferior opponents trained in the same Jedi dark arts but only to a lesser degree than Palpatine.

Despite these two powerful adepts each capable of manipulating large objects massing many tons while attempting to escape from Hondo and his jerk pirate boys. I already proved the example of the bounty hunters driving back these two same force users alongside a badass bounty hunter named Pre Vizsla until they received backup to turn the tide. The bounty hunters aren't capable of force powers either so what's the issue. We see force attacks used by force users against other force users while being very effective. It comes down to whether someone can counter or not. It's that simple.

You're also forgetting the fact that Palpatine had to wait for the right time to do so and the force attacks did not defeat them either. It is just like Yoda force pushing Sheev at the right time. That doesn't mean he can effortlessly hold him there. Force users can use the force when the moment is right and the opening is there. It is like any other attack in that fashion.

Now allow me to retort here. Khan's physicality, accuracy, weaponry, and ruthlessness are superior to Sheev's in spades. Khan will be the first to fire because in character he doesn't toy around or ask questions. He shoots and shoots to kill. Look at the time it took to kill Opress or beat Maul. It isn't over in a second or two. When Khan kills it's over in a blast aka blur. If we look at Sheev vs. Windu, Jedi masters it took multiple seconds just to close the distance to get to the first one. Sheev will have to close the distance with his saber and Khan has dual guns not just the Boolean gun.

The exaggerated force just won't go away. Khan doesn't need the element of surprise. But let's discuss the Jedi that defeated Sheev in one on one combat since you bring up the skill of the Jedi. Windu. Let's discuss Windu, Anakin, Kenobi and company being overwhelmed by the pathetic droid army. There is no surprise attack and there is no exceptional skill evidenced by the droids in this battle. So we have the only Jedi to defeat Palpatine with multiple allies being overwhelmed and needing vast numbers to turn the tide on geonosis. So a greater Jedi than Sheev with Jedi friends were all outmatched against droids.

How is Khan easily taking it off of him as it is carried on a strap over his shoulder. Khan shoots to kill and he doesn't rant, rave, and cackle like Sheev is known to do. Points to his battle against Maul and Yoda as proof of his stupidity in battle. When you have to point to other Jedi and Sith for feats to me that's a sign you don't fully believe in his superiority yourself.

If the force was too great an advantage Kenobi would have beaten Jango Fett. If the force was so great an advantage Kenobi wouldn't have been ko'd by Bane. These were highly skilled opponents with no force powers overcoming that advantage to either not lose or defeat a highly skilled force user.

Khan's weapons, accuracy, ruthlessness make this a no brainer. Khan doesn't need numbers to turn the tide of battle as he is a one man wrecking crew unlike Palpatine. Khan opposed all of Starfleet and went to the Klingon home world with no one else on his side to bail him out. Sheev is the guy who tried avoiding a fight with a peer as in Yoda despite both of then being armed one on one. Sheev would want no part of Khan and make no mistake Khan will leave him in stumps of flesh.

@ Tempest

Excellent post.

And a pathetic reply from Quanchi as always.

quanchi
Sure, the force is formidable but it in no means is an advantage that can't be overcome.

I never made that claim.

quanchi
The Star Wars universe has beat us over the head with examples of non force users being a matchup for some of the best force users in the Star Wars universe.

I never said a non-Force user couldn't defeat a Force user. But Sidious isn't a typical Force user and has never been bested by a Muggle.

quanchi
Removing the starship from a cliff side was fleeing from Hondo and his shitty pirate friends. Granted Maul and his buddy had his traitorous pirates turn along with Kenobi but all in all it wasn't a feat to dramatically turn the tide but instead trying to flee from them. Tk can tear structures apart but it takes time, focus and even when we see it done it doesn't crush the opposition as evidenced by the feat Gideon referenced.

Right, large numbers equipped with overwhelming firepower attacking from multiple angles and directions:

Me
That lesser Jedi have succumbed to large numbers of overwhelming firepower attacking from multiple angles and directions is also irrelevant to this thread as—again—Sheev is not a lesser Jedi and Khan is not a large number of anything attacking from multiple angles and directions.

The circumstances of Maul's retreat don't apply here: Khan doesn't have backup and Maul ain't Sheev.

quanchi
Now let's take the same two force users and add a very impressive bounty up Hunter named Pre Vizsla and we see even these three badasses needed help against bounty hunters and fodder who possessed no force powers whatsoever.

Around the 2 minute mark we see they are retreating until they get numbers and aid from Pre's bounty hunter allies. We later see Maul is disarmed and with the help of the other two about to come out on top against these bounty hunters but they still provide the weapons to escape from this group.

You do realize that Maul, Savage, and Vizsla drive the bounty hunters and Hutt gunmen to retreat, right?

And again, I can't emphasize enough: Maul ain't Sheev.

quanchi
Khan didn't need any help despite no aid from anyone and yet Maul, Opress, and Vizsla needed numbers and bounty hunter help to turn the tide. This is my point. Don't let the feats fool you that the force users we have seen thus far don't pack the formidability of Khan.

watch?v=9pI8IkWa3LQ

watch?v=dmbMZyvdYtM

There are plenty of examples of lone Force users fending off large numbers of gun-toting attackers, Quan.

quanchi
Palpatine did defeat these two opponents who possess none of the weaponry, tactical acumen relevant to Khan. Palpatine beat two inferior opponents trained in the same Jedi dark arts but only to a lesser degree than Palpatine.

The Zabraks actually do possess a similar skill set to Khan. Each possesses superhuman strength, durability, advanced hand-to-hand combat skills, etc. The only difference is that they also possess precognition, telepathy, and telekinesis. They're actually more formidable.

quanchi
Despite these two powerful adepts each capable of manipulating large objects massing many tons while attempting to escape from Hondo and his jerk pirate boys. I already proved the example of the bounty hunters driving back these two same force users alongside a badass bounty hunter named Pre Vizsla until they received backup to turn the tide. The bounty hunters aren't capable of force powers either so what's the issue. We see force attacks used by force users against other force users while being very effective. It comes down to whether someone can counter or not. It's that simple.

Me
I never said a non-Force user couldn't defeat a Force user. But Sidious isn't a typical Force user and has never been bested by a Muggle.

Me
That lesser Jedi have succumbed to large numbers of overwhelming firepower attacking from multiple angles and directions is also irrelevant to this thread as—again—Sheev is not a lesser Jedi and Khan is not a large number of anything attacking from multiple angles and directions.

Me
There are plenty of examples of lone Force users fending off large numbers of gun-toting attackers, Quan.

quanchi
You're also forgetting the fact that Palpatine had to wait for the right time to do so and the force attacks did not defeat them either.

That's because Sheev let them go Quan. And, in fact, the Force is exactly what defeated Maul.

quanchi
It is just like Yoda force pushing Sheev at the right time. That doesn't mean he can effortlessly hold him there. Force users can use the force when the moment is right and the opening is there. It is like any other attack in that fashion.

But it wasn't a Force push, quan. You're right, anyone can shove anyone else {with the Force or otherwise} if the opening is there. But pinning someone and keeping them pinned against their will effortlessly is another matter entirely. You need a lot more than an opening to do that.

quanchi
Now allow me to retort here. Khan's physicality, accuracy, weaponry, and ruthlessness are superior to Sheev's in spades. Khan will be the first to fire because in character he doesn't toy around or ask questions. He shoots and shoots to kill. Look at the time it took to kill Opress or beat Maul. It isn't over in a second or two. When Khan kills it's over in a blast aka blur. If we look at Sheev vs. Windu, Jedi masters it took multiple seconds just to close the distance to get to the first one. Sheev will have to close the distance with his saber and Khan has dual guns not just the Boolean gun.

quanchi
How is Khan easily taking it off of him as it is carried on a strap over his shoulder. Khan shoots to kill and he doesn't rant, rave, and cackle like Sheev is known to do. Points to his battle against Maul and Yoda as proof of his stupidity in battle. When you have to point to other Jedi and Sith for feats to me that's a sign you don't fully believe in his superiority yourself.

Arguing what a character will do "in-character" is nothing more than scripting. Sheev didn't monologue when he murdered Maul's Mandalorian supercommandos. He didn't monologue when he slaughtered Mace's Jedi companions.

In the same token, I saw Khan throw Spock around during their final battle rather than snapping his neck or throwing him off the transport. That doesn't look like a rather efficient or expedient way to kill someone. You don't see me arguing that Khan will drop his boolean gun to try to take Sheev down in hand-to-hand combat, do you?

We argue what a character is capable of doing based on their abilities. Anything else is just scripting. 👆

quanchi
The exaggerated force just won't go away. Khan doesn't need the element of surprise. But let's discuss the Jedi that defeated Sheev in one on one combat since you bring up the skill of the Jedi. Windu. Let's discuss Windu, Anakin, Kenobi and company being overwhelmed by the pathetic droid army. There is no surprise attack and there is no exceptional skill evidenced by the droids in this battle. So we have the only Jedi to defeat Palpatine with multiple allies being overwhelmed and needing vast numbers to turn the tide on geonosis. So a greater Jedi than Sheev with Jedi friends were all outmatched against droids.

Me
That lesser Jedi have succumbed to large numbers of overwhelming firepower attacking from multiple angles and directions is also irrelevant to this thread as—again—Sheev is not a lesser Jedi and Khan is not a large number of anything attacking from multiple angles and directions.

Khan doesn't have backup in this thread.

quanchi
If the force was too great an advantage Kenobi would have beaten Jango Fett. If the force was so great an advantage Kenobi wouldn't have been ko'd by Bane. These were highly skilled opponents with no force powers overcoming that advantage to either not lose or defeat a highly skilled force user.

I said the Force was too great an advantage with Sidious; Sidious has nothing to do with Obi-Wan's success or lack thereof against Jango Fett and Cad Bane.

quanchi
Khan's weapons, accuracy, ruthlessness make this a no brainer. Khan doesn't need numbers to turn the tide of battle as he is a one man wrecking crew unlike Palpatine. Khan opposed all of Starfleet and went to the Klingon home world with no one else on his side to bail him out. Sheev is the guy who tried avoiding a fight with a peer as in Yoda despite both of then being armed one on one. Sheev would want no part of Khan and make no mistake Khan will leave him in stumps of flesh.

Not sure why you're eager to engage in a futile dick measuring contest here. It doesn't make any sense and it's not going to bait me lol. Sheev trying to avoid fights with peers has absolutely no bearing on this fight. Are the outcome of fights determined by courage?

Anyway, you asked and I answered. The defense rests.

Originally posted by Sinious
@ Tempest

Excellent post.

And a pathetic reply from Quanchi as always.

In my rebuttal of Tempest's post I replied with factual evidence that countered the force users exaggerated feats against non force users.

Read through my detailed response and try to be honest with yourself. Hopefully, tempest won't shy away and will show some courage in facing against the superior opponent known as Khan Noonien Singh.

I see your response and don't you are dare stop now. My rebuttal will be rendered tonight. If you truly believe in your position don't walk away from Palpatine right now as he really needs you. His life depends on it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

I never made that claim.

I never said a non-Force user couldn't defeat a Force user. But Sidious isn't a typical Force user and has never been bested by a Muggle.

Right, large numbers equipped with overwhelming firepower attacking from multiple angles and directions:

The circumstances of Maul's retreat don't apply here: Khan doesn't have backup and Maul ain't Sheev.

You do realize that Maul, Savage, and Vizsla drive the bounty hunters and Hutt gunmen to retreat, right?

And again, I can't emphasize enough: Maul ain't Sheev.

watch?v=9pI8IkWa3LQ

watch?v=dmbMZyvdYtM

There are plenty of examples of lone Force users fending off large numbers of gun-toting attackers, Quan.

The Zabraks actually do possess a similar skill set to Khan. Each possesses superhuman strength, durability, advanced hand-to-hand combat skills, etc. The only difference is that they also possess precognition, telepathy, and telekinesis. They're actually more formidable.

That's because Sheev let them go Quan. And, in fact, the Force is exactly what defeated Maul.

But it wasn't a Force push, quan. You're right, anyone can shove anyone else {with the Force or otherwise} if the opening is there. But pinning someone and keeping them pinned against their will effortlessly is another matter entirely. You need a lot more than an opening to do that.

Arguing what a character will do "in-character" is nothing more than scripting. Sheev didn't monologue when he murdered Maul's Mandalorian supercommandos. He didn't monologue when he slaughtered Mace's Jedi companions.

In the same token, I saw Khan throw Spock around during their final battle rather than snapping his neck or throwing him off the transport. That doesn't look like a rather efficient or expedient way to kill someone. You don't see me arguing that Khan will drop his boolean gun to try to take Sheev down in hand-to-hand combat, do you?

We argue what a character is capable of doing based on their abilities. Anything else is just scripting. 👆

Khan doesn't have backup in this thread.

I said the Force was too great an advantage with Sidious; Sidious has nothing to do with Obi-Wan's success or lack thereof against Jango Fett and Cad Bane.

Not sure why you're eager to engage in a futile dick measuring contest here. It doesn't make any sense and it's not going to bait me lol. Sheev trying to avoid fights with peers has absolutely no bearing on this fight. Are the outcome of fights determined by courage?

Anyway, you asked and I answered. The defense rests.

Khan Noonien Singh isn't your typical non force user either. He also hasn't ever been defeated by a muggle.

Yes, I do agree larger numbers with overwhelming firepower coming from multiple directions is what caused these two Sith to escape but guess what Khan went up against: larger numbers with overwhelming firepower coming from multiple directions along with two ships and reinforcements deployed to take him down.

I didn't say they applied here as Maul isn't Sheev but I wanted to directly attack the feats you brought into question as they weren't enough to turn the tide of Hondo's pirates against the two force users. Khan doesn't need backup but they clearly did. So in closing their feats don't mean anything relevant up against incoming firepower. Khan can also bring in overwhelming firepower from multiple directions since he is wielding dual guns.

Yes, I did note that but not before Vizsla's reinforcements turned the tide.
You are right that Maul isn't Sheev nor did I ever make that claim.

I never said there weren't but those gun users aren't Khan nor did they possess that kind of weaponry. I always said skilled gun users have a chance against skilled force users. It all comes down to the skill of both and the evidence bright forth from both sides to come to a logical conclusion.

Maul isn't Sheev and these guys aren't Khan.

How on earth did you come to this conclusion ? Did the Zabraks possess guns or lightsabers ? Khan having superhuman strength is only relevant here if it comes down to hand to hand which I personally don't see as a likely outcome. Zabraks aren't more formidable than Khan though. Khan doesn't need to recruit shitty, disloyal Hondo defectors nor do these two have the feats of Khan with his weapons. They also don't possess the resilience of Khan due to his cellular regeneration. Imagine if Khan had a slightly lesser ally like Opress against Hondo and his shitty pirates. Do you imagine him fleeing from them ? I sure don't. Khan doesn't need an ally to take the likes of these awful pirates down.

I disagree. I don't think it's just because he let them go. I don't believe he could easily hold them in place and kill them whenever he wanted to at any point. Palpatine's greater skill and greater force knowledge defeated an inferior opponent skilled in the same arts none of which are relevant to Khan Noonien's formidability.

Yoda force pushed Sheev backwards. There guard has to be down and if Sheev attempts to do so while Khah fired two or three successive blasts then he's a goner. So yes he has to do it when he has an opening and be mindful of defending himself.

I am not scripting the fight. I base all my arguments off of the behavior of these characters otherwise I believe it's scripting. Here's why: It is like saying the character does so and so based off a single feat and not the majority of their appearances. To me it's like a powerset argument or saying Voldemort possesses his opponent as soon as the fight starts. That goes against the majority of his behavior in fights and is ridiculous. That's why you'll never hear me rely on a single feat to argue in a powerset type fashion.

Palpatine did take time and let the Mandalorian guards aim their weapons and say the word,"Halt." Then Sheev force choked them which takes time allows an opportunity to attack because it isn't instantaneous. Normal humans can fight back while being choked coupled with Khan's super resilience and that makes this an easy Khan win.

Mace's Jedi master friends also took time due to Sheev having to close the distance and kill them with his lightsaber. Sheev will no doubt try to get up close and personal with his light saber just like this example supports but get mowed down in the process. This supports the behavior of the characters and my perspective of how this fight plays out.

Khan isn't weaponless in this fight. He also went for the headcrush twice. The opening was there for the toss so a headcrush isn't always a gimme until he wore Spock down. Khan didn't possess any weapons in that fight and disarmed Spock right out of the gate. I don't reference Palpatine against Luke due to him seemingly not possess a lightsaber in that confrontation thus why it's just as irrelevant as the Khan/Spock fight.

We do argue based off feats but I argue based off the majority of how the characters behave otherwise it's powerset arguing and taking the character out of the fight.

Khan doesn't need backup but he can fire in multiple directions from his dual guns.

I just used the Kenobi example as further proof about the force user vs. a non force user and that it can be overcome. Sidious hasn't faced any highly skilled bounty hunter from his own universe in fair combat.

You ignored Sheev's superior in Windu and group fail on their own against the droids on geonosis. That was just a little trash talking. Khan Noonien Singh with his Boolean gun and his phaser rifle will shoot to kill Sheev the moment the fight starts and there's no evidence Sheev can close the distance or even block/deflect the Boolean gun's phaser blasts.

I've gone back and looked at some of the videos of force weilders vs non force weilders.

Cad Bane vs Obi wan. https://youtu.be/SoSayqv1TVI Cad bane was a formidable opponent. However he had the assistance of his droid to incapacitate Vos. Then when taking on kenobi by himself he was forced pushed to the ground, disarmed him of his blaster, then disarmed him of a lightsaber. Cad bane was only able to disable him while distracted. Showing he couldn't do,it while kenobi was paying attention.

Darth Maul vs Pre Vizla Force weilder victory

Obi wan Kenobi vs Pre Vizla. Force weilder victory

Ahsoka Tano vs Cad Bane. https://youtu.be/xfyRUoxIG6Q Again the force weilder only was disabled due to distraction. Without distraction bane would have been butchered by the force weilder.

Jango fett vs Obi wan kenobi. https://youtu.be/8tMZdrUx8eM Jango was no doubt a challenge for kenobi but again the non force weilder had some type of assistance. Jango had assistance from his son in the ship. When hand to hand combat came along kenobi was easily able to push Jango and force him to resort to his gadgets and even then fett still lost his jet back and would have died if not for his little saw blade.

Mace windu vs Jango Fett. Force weilder victory.

Tempest/Gideon, I wait your rebuttal. Do not disappoint me and the Star Wars fans counting on you.

After reviewing fights of non force weilders vs force weilders in the Star Wars movies and TCW I have found that Quan no longer has a leg to stand on. Cad Abner battles with Ahsoka and Obi wan. He was only able to take them out due them being distracted. Before that Obi and Ahsoka had him disarmed or beaten.

Maul has killed pre Vizla.

Obi has beaten pre Vizla.

Windu has killed Jango Fett

Obi wan was able to successfully almost kill Jango if Jango didn't have the razor edges gauntlets or didn't have kenobi in the wire.

Basically most non force users use trickery to win. Trickery along with distraction. Something I don't see Khan being able to do against Sheev.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
After reviewing fights of non force weilders vs force weilders in the Star Wars movies and TCW I have found that Quan no longer has a leg to stand on. Cad Abner battles with Ahsoka and Obi wan. He was only able to take them out due them being distracted. Before that Obi and Ahsoka had him disarmed or beaten.

Maul has killed pre Vizla.

Obi has beaten pre Vizla.

Windu has killed Jango Fett

Obi wan was able to successfully almost kill Jango if Jango didn't have the razor edges gauntlets or didn't have kenobi in the wire.

Basically most non force users use trickery to win. Trickery along with distraction. Something I don't see Khan being able to do against Sheev.

You aren't a serious debated and make things up like some schizophrenic.

Maul defeated Vizsla. Kenobi never defeated Vizsla. Windu defeated Fett but his jetpack was damaged and Windu was the most formidable Jedi we have ever seen.

The Jedi have the force and focus so basically all you're saying is they have attention deficit and don't distract them because you're picking on those poor A.D.D.

You haven't even seen the film Into Darkness which makes your bias and trolling all the more apparent. Honestly, you're a child who really like Star Wars. Kind of obvious but that doesn't change that Khan wins. Sheev dies.

Originally posted by quanchi112
If you're in a fight then you aren't distracted. The excuses you people come up with to avoid the simple truth that force abilities are only an advantage which can be overcome and has been overcome is nauseating.

You aren't a serious debated and make things up like some schizophrenic.

Maul defeated Vizsla. Kenobi never defeated Vizsla. Windu defeated Fett but his jetpack was damaged and Windu was the most formidable Jedi we have ever seen.

The Jedi have the force and focus so basically all you're saying is they have attention deficit and don't distract them because you're picking on those poor A.D.D.

You haven't even seen the film Into Darkness which makes your bias and trolling all the more apparent. Honestly, you're a child who really like Star Wars. Kind of obvious but that doesn't change that Khan wins. Sheev dies.

Well excuses or not anyone who sees the fight can see that cad only got the upper hand when kenobi wasn't looking at him. Re watch the video I posted off the battle.

What have I made up. Everything here has been factually proven.

Kenobi did defeat Vizla as seen by the video. Now those are excuses. His jet pack broke and windu was formidable. So that's are point. Jedi beat non force weilders in fair contest. Him losing his jet pack his fault for not taking better care of his weapons. That's why he got decapitated.

My point is your argument of non force weilders defeating force weilders is no longer sustainable by saying that they won by skill win bane was disarmed twice by Obi wan and only disabled him due to Obi not paying attention. Then Ahsoka was trying to retrieve her lightsaber this leaving herself open for a cad bane sneak attack.

I'm not trolling and I'm not biased either. I have heard from a friend who has seen the film and he has told me about some of the feats of khan and I'm still not impressed. I'm not a child but I do like Star Wars. However Harry Potter is better IMO. You still haven't proven that khan wins. What can he do if he doesn't have any weapons and is being ragdolled.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Well excuses or not anyone who sees the fight can see that cad only got the upper hand when kenobi wasn't looking at him. Re watch the video I posted off the battle.

What have I made up. Everything here has been factually proven.

Kenobi did defeat Vizla as seen by the video. Now those are excuses. His jet pack broke and windu was formidable. So that's are point. Jedi beat non force weilders in fair contest. Him losing his jet pack his fault for not taking better care of his weapons. That's why he got decapitated.

My point is your argument of non force weilders defeating force weilders is no longer sustainable by saying that they won by skill win bane was disarmed twice by Obi wan and only disabled him due to Obi not paying attention. Then Ahsoka was trying to retrieve her lightsaber this leaving herself open for a cad bane sneak attack.

I'm not trolling and I'm not biased either. I have heard from a friend who has seen the film and he has told me about some of the feats of khan and I'm still not impressed. I'm not a child but I do like Star Wars. However Harry Potter is better IMO. You still haven't proven that khan wins. What can he do if he doesn't have any weapons and is being ragdolled.

Kenobi is in the middle of a fight Bane was very resourceful. You can't just dismiss his advantages and his hand to hand skill while shitting on the Jedi force.

No, it isn't this is why I laugh at you.

Pre didn't lose so continue to spout nonsense. This is why I don't respect you nor do I ever take you seriously. His jet pack was damaged by another beast but in no way, shape, or form was it broken by Windu. Windu did defeat him but he also beat Sidious but no one else broke Sid's light saber, sport.
😂

So you hilariously say the Jedi disarmed Bane but then say Bane's victory over ashsoka doesn't count because she was busy trying to retrieve her weapon because it was disarmed. You are too stupid to even realize it was a double standard. This is why I feel like you're abut as dumb of an opponent as there is out there.

How old are you ? I watch films before I come to conclusions on versus match ups. You even admit you haven't seen the film like an ignoramus.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Kenobi is in the middle of a fight Bane was very resourceful. You can't just dismiss his advantages and his hand to hand skill while shitting on the Jedi force.

No, it isn't this is why I laugh at you.

Pre didn't lose so continue to spout nonsense. This is why I don't respect you nor do I ever take you seriously. His jet pack was damaged by another beast but in no way, shape, or form was it broken by Windu. Windu did defeat him but he also beat Sidious but no one else broke Sid's light saber, sport.
😂

So you hilariously say the Jedi disarmed Bane but then say Bane's victory over ashsoka doesn't count because she was busy trying to retrieve her weapon because it was disarmed. You are too stupid to even realize it was a double standard. This is why I feel like you're abut as dumb of an opponent as there is out there.

How old are you ? I watch films before I come to conclusions on versus match ups. You even admit you haven't seen the film like an ignoramus.

He is resourceful. However he didn't beat kenobi through a pure hand to hand thing. He had to have kenobi be distracted for him to take him down. Kenobi had already dismayed him of his blaster and of a vos' lightsaber. So hand to hand kenobi definitly won. He had bane down way more times than bane had him down.

Well you laugh but more people laugh at you than me and they actaually agree with me.

I don't want your respect. You are respected by hardly anyone on this forum. So,with that I don't need nor want your respect. You have failed to understand the fight between Vizla and kenobi as you keep saying Obi lost when he won. Sidious threw the fight as I've stated my belief and have backed with evidence.

Well I'm going by what I see. Bane was disarmed of a lightsaber as seen in the video. Ahsoka also,did not have a lightsaber thus she was disarmed. This is not a double standard this is just what we see in the fights. So cry all you want but that's the evidence.

I don't state age on public forums. Well see for this particular battle with an vs different opponents, then being force weilders that can easily just ragdoll him and Sidious being much more powerful than any Jedi or Sith can use the force in much more offensive ways and much more powerful ways. Also I've listened to,you, and others about khans abilities and frankly I'm not impressed. The moment khans weapons are gone he loses a lot of fire power. Also,Sidious has force perception and reflexes that khans blast won't be able to hit him. He can also use the force to kill khan with his own weapons or disarm him of his weapons.