Vitiate and HoT

I tend to see some strongly varying opinions concerning these two... From the same people.

The usual consensus is that Vitiate was weakened so immensely by his ritual, that even despite being defeated on a potent nexus, he remains marginally superior to the Hero on neutral ground.

Yet, the same people tend to infer that the Hero is significantly stronger than say, Revan, because of his superior performance against Vitiate. Yet, if the latter was so immensely weakened by his ritual as they claim, how is this a valid showcase that he's Revan's superior?

I don't understand! cry

My favorite thread on this forum. 👆

IMO they're on similar levels of power, with Vitiate being superior.

And how exactly, do you come to that conclusion? If he was only weakened slightly, being on a Nexus + Recovery time should make up for that and perhaps more.

If he was weakened massively enough that he's still weaker than usual despite being on an immensely potent Nexus, how do you gauge how much weaker he was than usual? How would you gauge how impressive the Hero's feat is with no indicators to the extent which Vitiate was weakened?

That being said, I doubt Vitiate has been static for 300 years in terms of power level.

Really though, this is just a common case of hyping up Vitiate, but then needing to hype up the HoT; somewhere along the line, they lose track of it all.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And how exactly, do you come to that conclusion? If he was only weakened slightly, being on a Nexus + Recovery time should make up for that and perhaps more.

If he was weakened massively enough that he's still weaker than usual despite being on an immensely potent Nexus, how do you gauge how much weaker he was than usual? How would you gauge how impressive the Hero's feat is with no indicators to the extent which Vitiate was weakened? [/B]

I don't think there's any statement that confirms HoT>Revan.

That being said, I doubt Vitiate has been static for 300 years in terms of power level.

That too, yeah.

He wasn't weakened slightly.

With that in mind, what source states that he was weakened at all? All I can recall is that Scourge said the Emperor was vulnerable, or something of that sort. Can you please redirect me if another source exists?

I look at it as:

Vitiate>Revan>HoT>Weakened Vitiate

I would agree with that

I'll offer an explanation later today, it's midnight and I'm typing on my phone.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That too, yeah.

With that in mind, what source states that he was weakened at all? All I can recall is that Scourge said the Emperor was vulnerable, or something of that sort. Can you please redirect me if another source exists?

Anyway, I agree with XSUPREMEXSKILLZ, Revan the HoT are probably really similar in power. Revan has shown more Force mastery, and only do to his mastering the Dark Side, but as far as raw power goes, they are about the same.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yet, if the latter was so immensely weakened by his ritual as they claim, how is this a valid showcase that he's Revan's superior?

Simple.

He's not.

The reason why people assume HoT is above Revan is because HoT managed to kill the Emperor where Revan did a poor job.

It is complicated because there are many dynamics here. Nexus, ritual's weakening effect, 300 years of power level difference etc.

My personal opinion is that Revan and HoT are very close in power but Revan is highly skilled in the force and HoT is highly skilled in saber combat.

Vitiate is insanely powerful in the force and probably the worst way to approach him in combat is relying on force attacks. His only weakness seems to be dueling and even with that you have to be very skilled with the saber to be able to kill him.

Revan's powers aren't very useful against the Emperor so HoT has the advantage here. This is probably the main reason why there is such a big difference between their performances against Vitiate.

If Revan and HoT were to face each other, it would be a really close fight. I still think HoT is a bit more powerful though.

About Vitiate-HoT, Vitiate is definitely more stronger than him and full power off nexus Emperor's Voice would be able to defeat him with a good fight(It would be a good fight because HoT is an excellent dueler and could give Vitiate a hard time with that). Full powered off nexus original body Vitiate would kill HoT with mid difficulty at most.

OB Vitiate>Voice>HoT>Revan>Weakened Vitiate

This is how I perceive it based on what I've seen/read/played.

Originally posted by Sinious
OB Vitiate>Voice>HoT>Revan>Weakened Voice*

The Voice is just as strong as the Emperor. 😬

Even if you don't believe that the HoT faced the true Emperor, the Hand tells the Wrath that the Emperor embodies himself within the Voice, while the codex says that the Voice wields his power.

As for Revan skills with the saber goes, he's been stated to be skilled in all forms of lightsaber combat, and has outdueled superior lightsaber combatants before, so I don't think that's really an issue here.

As for how the HoT combated the Emperor, that's just something we don't know. We see the beginning and the end of the duel, and the HoT performs acts similar to what Revan would do, block and stab. Revan does try to attack Vitiate using Vitiate's own power, but we also can't prove the HoT didn't do that as well. We simply do not know how the duel went, and shouldn't make such statements. The fact that Vitiate speaks on the HoT's power shows that the HoT at least absorbed a lot of Vitiate's attacks, also seen in cutscene, and considering the HoT's preferred method of execution here is with the Force, I doubt that they wouldn't use it during the duel.

Hot goes after Vitiate under assumption that he is weakened. Because lets face it, Scourge could only assume that Vitiate would be weakened as he never participated in the ritual. On top of that in lightside version, which last time I checked is official, we have confirmation from Vitiate that HoT not only gave Vitiate time to gather his power but, also, dissipated his power saving the weak.
Which character was weakened or not is entirely choice of opinion.

Imho it doesn't matter. Characters never needed full Force reserves to show the best feats in their life, so I doubt that either character performed weaker than normally.

Originally posted by Arhael
Hot goes after Vitiate under assumption that he is weakened. Because lets face it, Scourge could only assume that Vitiate would be weakened as he never participated in the ritual. On top of that in lightside version, which last time I checked is official, we have confirmation from Vitiate that HoT not only gave Vitiate time to gather his power but, also, dissipated his power saving the weak.
Which character was weakened or not is entirely choice of opinion.

Imho it doesn't matter. Characters never needed full Force reserves to show the best feats in their life, so I doubt that either character performed weaker than normally.

You've learned that the Emperor is on Dromund Kaas, temporarily weakened by your efforts thwarting his plan for galactic annihilation. Striking at him now is your best chance to defeat him once and for all.

----

Emperor Vitiate is stronger then HoT, the former could have felled the Strike Team of Revan, Meetra and Scourge:

Vision of Scourge:

Revan lay motionless on the floor of the Citadel’s throne room. Meetra and Scourge lay beside him, their bodies twisted and broken, clinging to the last moments of life.

The Emperor approached the trio, regarding them with a cold and casual contempt as he loomed above his fallen adversaries. Scourge tried to stand and flee, but his crippled limbs wouldn’t support his weight. All he could do was crawl on his belly like a worm. His efforts drew the attention of the Emperor, who didn't speak but came over and lowered himself to one knee. He grabbed Scourge by the shoulder and rolled him over so he was staring up into the twin voids of the Emperor's eyes. As he reached out a hand and placed it on Scourge’s forehead, the Sith began to scream.

Explicit statement:

Betraying his allies had not altered the inevitable outcome; the Emperor would have won regardless. At least this way Scourge was still alive to carry on their cause.

---

I doubt that HoT exceeds combined might of Revan, Surik and Scourge. However, it is possible that HoT is stronger then Revan.

The only logical explanation is that Emperor Vitiate was not in a good position to contend with HoT due to following reasons:

1. Disruption from ritual weakened Emperor Vitiate (temporarily), this was no ordinary ritual. Lord Scourge knew that this was the right time to strike at the Emperor and he convinced HoT and his allies to take chance again.

2. Emperor had to subjugate Force ghosts lurking inside the Dark Temple as well to protect his forces stationed inside. This would have been a tedious task.

3. HoT confronted Emperor Vitiate but was not alone, he was supported by his droid T7-01.

"You've learned" - so how else exactly he would have learned?

Disruption from ritual weakened temporarily Emperor Vitiate, this was no ordinary ritual.

The only logical explanation is that Emperor Vitiate was not in a good position to contend with HoT due to following reasons

But yeah, you make a good case, since droid was involved.

Tol Braga says that he's weakened.

We only see T7 dealing with AN(as in one) illusion, and he only stunned it, not that even that makes any sense. I doubt he made that big of a difference, LeGenD.