Vitiate and HoT

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Are you implying that the HoT was made commander of all Jedi forces on Corellia without leadership skills? We have not seen the entire story to make such statements. And the only reason Malgus wasn't on the Dark Council is Malgus, yet he has more showing as a warrior. And Baras controlled the Empire with power. Jadus controlled with cunning, and even he was still second to Baras in power after Baras took up the mantle of the Voice.

Which is why I said HoT could replace Malgus perhaps. He is a powerful warrior and could lead armies in battle. Being the Emperor isn't the same thing.

The entire Empire was built in his image. His personal servants, and inner groups were created by his sorcerous character. The jedi who killed the Emperor wouldn't just be seen a a new hope for the sith.

Yes he used the actual Emperor's name. HoT's story isn't as cute.

HoT: Yo guys Im a jedi sent by the republic and I just killed your worshipped Emperor but don't worry Im a dark sider too so I'll become the new Emperor.

DC: Nope, you die.

In regards to the thread, this is how I see it:

"Even in his weakened state you are no match for him."

"You’ve learned that the Emperor is on Dromund Kaas, temporarily weakened by your efforts thwarting his plan for galactic annihilation. Striking at him now is your best chance to defeat him once and for all."

These two quotes reinforce the fact that-yes, the Emperor was indeed weakened. Although the extent of his weakness is unknown, it's safe to say he wasn't weakened only slightly, considering the magnitude of the ritual he was performing. It's only logical to assume that since the ritual was one of galaxy-destroying power, having it backfire would weaken the Emperor quite immensely. Now of course, that's only the onset. The Emperor's been recovering for hours in the dark temple, though how much and how fast it would replenish him is unknown.

The Hero, similarly, would probably not be at his peak power either. Not only does he have to fight through the Imperial Guard, "the ultimate non force sensitive warriors in the Empire," but he's doing so through the dark temple, a very powerful concentration of dark side energy.

Something people consistently bring up is that if the Hero is light side, he goes to save his apprentice before confronting the Emperor, along with the Emperor's confirmation that he has, "dissipated their energy saving the weak." This is merely a demoralizing statement on the Emperor's part, as if you choose to not save your apprentice, the Emperor says, "you have gained little." And to add a bit of logic, if the Emperor's been recovering for multiple hours, a few minutes wouldn't make him exorbitantly more powerful.

In regards to how this makes him more impressive than Revan, allow me to explain.

-The Vitiate that Revan fought was inherently weaker than the Emperor in SWTOR, as the Emperor is stated to have, "ever increasing," power, plus he's been siphoning energy from Revan and the Emperor's hands, along with other individuals across the galaxy.

-The Hero and the Emperor were in somewhat similar conditions.

-Scourge's revelations in SWTOR heavily imply it, stating that Revan and the Exile, "didn't have the strength to complete their task," and this:

"Jedi, shining with the force, were lined up to destroy him. All were swept aside. Revan and the Exile were cast at my feet. Then, out of the shadows, one jedi emerged to cut the Emperor down. That jedi wore your face."
-Scourge to the HoT

Originally posted by Sinious
Which is why I said HoT could replace Malgus perhaps. He is a powerful warrior and could lead armies in battle. Being the Emperor isn't the same thing.

The entire Empire was built in his image. His personal servants, and inner groups were created by his sorcerous character. The jedi who killed the Emperor wouldn't just be seen a a new hope for the sith.

Yes he used the actual Emperor's name. HoT's story isn't as cute.

HoT: Yo guys Im a jedi sent by the republic and I just killed your worshipped Emperor but don't worry Im a dark sider too so I'll become the new Emperor.

DC: Nope, you die.

@X:

Hours? Corellia isn't hours from Dromund Kaas.

Darth Marr states that no one in the Empire particularly gives a shit that the Emperor died. They don't really worship him or anything.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Hours? Corellia isn't hours from Dromund Kaas.

Well there's other things taking place. How long do you think the occurrence took?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Well there's other things taking place. How long do you think the occurrence took?

A week, lolwut?

Vitiate would probably be back at full power if it took that long 😉

Vitiate got stomped months ago in game and he's still not back yet.

Originally posted by Nephthys
A week, lolwut?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
For the Sith, yeah it is. Considering we have next to no knowledge on how Vitiate rules besides the usual Sith bully tactics, again we can't just assume anything.

He constructed the empire along with many other things new to the sith culture. The Imperial Intelligence was very sophisticated by itself. The Dark Council is also a unique case. They had high lords before but a council with such characteristics weren't seen before. It is obvious that he didn't simply rule by sith bully tactics.

Because he was thought of as immortal. Look at what happened when people thought he died. The Empire began cracking and was damn near crumbled. Everything was built around him because he was as close to a god as any Sith before him had ever seen. They respected his power, but if said power were eclipsed, I doubt their devotion would be so strong

Well he didn't die though. He and his servants wouldn't just stay there and watch while HoT is taking over.

You mean of the few people left that we actually know of who can even stand up to the HoT? From what we've seen, they go by showings of power. It doesn't matter if Vitiate used to be the strongest, it's the person who's the strongest now.

There were thousands of well trained sith within the empire. Just because the ones we know died, it doesn't mean that new ones aren't replacing them. Dark Council always gets new members. Thanaton was a strong member and Nox replaced him. New powerful sith join the empire every moment and its not as if the council gets weaker in time.

Being the strongest is enough if you're a power risen from within but if you are a jedi trying to take over brutally, you cannot simply be just a bit more stronger.

Also IIRC, Dread Masters were alive and free at that time. They were the envied champions of the Empire for centuries. Imps would rather have them rule than HoT. The Empire would simply welcome them and DC would support them to stop HoT.

But I don't think there would be a need of the Dread Masters anyway.

Originally posted by Sinious
He constructed the empire along with many other things new to the sith culture. The Imperial Intelligence was very sophisticated by itself. The Dark Council is also a unique case. They had high lords before but a council with such characteristics weren't seen before. It is obvious that he didn't simply rule by sith bully tactics.

Well he didn't die though. He and his servants wouldn't just stay there and watch while HoT is taking over.

There were thousands of well trained sith within the empire. Just because the ones we know died, it doesn't mean that new ones aren't replacing them. Dark Council always gets new members. Thanaton was a strong member and Nox replaced him. New powerful sith join the empire every moment and its not as if the council gets weaker in time.

Being the strongest is enough if you're a power risen from within but if you are a jedi trying to take over brutally, you cannot simply be just a bit more stronger.

Also IIRC, Dread Masters were alive and free at that time. They were the envied champions of the Empire for centuries. Imps would rather have them rule than HoT. The Empire would simply welcome them and DC would support them to stop HoT.

But I don't think there would be a need of the Dread Masters anyway.

The Dread Masters would certainly not become the leaders of the Empire.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Nope, because all of those things ran independently with the Emperor controlling the people who actually ran them. The Emperor doesn't keep tabs on any of these organizations, he keeps tabs on their leaders.

He can't do anything and his servants can't do anything. The only person who legitimately stop the HoT is the Wrath, and they most likely would die at the HoT's hands. Despite being called a "master of the Dark Arts," the Wrath isn't fully trained and is going on raw power mainly to accomplish their feats. The HoT has plenty of that and has shown more power.

Nox is an acception, and while new members come in all the time, the point means nothing unless they are equal to or are greater to their masters and then bested them in a duel. This isn't happening here.

As soon as you give me a source for this, I'll agree.

Again, based on what? If the HoT can subjugate the Sith, no one would support removing them based on them being a Jedi. Jaesa is given a high ranking position based on her power alone. If you have the capacity, no one will stop you.

They're dead now, so it matters little.

I said he constructed them. I don't understand how thats relevant.

You keep comparing Hoth to individuals but DC would side with Wrath and not HoT.

Nox is an exception? And you know this based on what?

I don't have a source. Its common sense. Their thousands of years old enemy sends an assassin to kill their king and if the assassin decides to stay instead of running and declare that he is taking over, he doesn't get rewarded. So by this I also mean it isn't about just being a jedi.

Dread Masters were alive at that point and Empire has shown a lot of effort to kill them cause they were opposing the Empire. If they were fully certain that their Emperor is killed and a dark jedi is trying to take over, the Empire would stop fighting them and welcome them back in. DMs too wouldn't wanna see the murderer of their Emperor rule as they only saw Vitiate worthy of obedience.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The Dread Masters would certainly not become the leaders of the Empire.

Yeah, they're too insane and obsessed with fear.

What do you mean the time that it took to save Kira would make no difference? As you said, the Emperor claiming that the Hero dissipated his energies are belittling words, as is his claim that the Hero had gained little by sacrificing his friend.

The difference in the cutscenes should speak for itself. If you choose to sacrifice your friends, he simply walks up to you and the battle commences. If you choose to save them, he blasts you with lightning and summons illusions as he walks up to you.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The Dread Masters would certainly not become the leaders of the Empire.

Even if they won't take over, they certainly won't let HoT take over as well. They were loyal to the Empire because of Vitiate and they grew impatient after centuries of absence and thought the Emperor was gone/dead so they decided to be independent. If they saw the killer of their Emperor take over the empire, they wouldn't stand idle.

Also this entire debate is based on the assumption of Vitiate's silence will continue but he was silent because he was captured and before that he was absent from sight because he didn't need to present himself anymore. If HoT tries to take over, he won't just watch him do it. And like I said before even if the Emperor was destroyed completely I still think Hot doesn't have a chance.

Originally posted by Sinious
I said he constructed them. I don't understand how thats relevant.

You keep comparing Hoth to individuals but DC would side with Wrath and not HoT.

Nox is an exception? And you know this based on what?

I don't have a source. Its common sense. Their thousands of years old enemy sends an assassin to kill their king and if the assassin decides to stay instead of running and declare that he is taking over, he doesn't get rewarded. So by this I also mean it isn't about just being a jedi.

You can't compare such a cut and dry code to a world that has nothing as such. The Sith can't be assumed to do anything, especially when they have shown opinions that contradict said assumption.

Dread Masters were alive at that point and Empire has shown a lot of effort to kill them cause they were opposing the Empire. If they were fully certain that their Emperor is killed and a dark jedi is trying to take over, the Empire would stop fighting them and welcome them back in. DMs too wouldn't wanna see the murderer of their Emperor rule as they only saw Vitiate worthy of obedience.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The Emperor is only a symbol to most of the Empire, one that has been missing for a long time. In a society that respects power, anyone that overcome said symbol would not be hated just for overcoming them.

The DC would side with whoever had the most power. That didn't side with Baras over the Wrath. They didn't side with Thanaton over Nox. They respect power, and by all accounts, that more than anything.

Nox actually overcame their master and replaced them. Along the way they and the others killed quite a number of Dark Council members with nothing to support equally competent and powerful people took their place. Either way, it matters little.

Because the Sith are rational, normal people in our world instead of the enemy in a black and white universe that has shown everything to support what you're saying. Despite all their words to the contrary, they really do care about an Emperor who isn't there for more than just the power he wielded. 😐

You can't compare such a cut and dry code to a world that has nothing as such. The Sith can't be assumed to do anything, especially when they have shown opinions that contradict said assumption.

Neph already pointed out how no one cares, so why are you still arguing that they would? Either way, even if he hadn't, nothing in game supports your supposition. The Sith don't behave in the way you think they do.

Im sorry but one of these statements make sense. Have you played Makeb? Not the entire empire is individualistic evil beings. There is a powerful patriotism in the Empire and hatred for the jedi. This doesn't even matter though. HoT simply isn't powerful and wise enough to rule the Empire.

"Your wanking is insignificant. Let your death be the same."

Originally posted by Sinious
Im sorry but one of these statements make sense. Have you played Makeb? Not the entire empire is individualistic evil beings. There is a powerful patriotism in the Empire and hatred for the jedi. This doesn't even matter though. HoT simply isn't powerful and wise enough to rule the Empire.

"Your wanking is insignificant. Let your death be the same."

For the record, the HoT is an awful character, and I've always said that I like the Wrath better.

Originally posted by Sinious
"Your wanking is insignificant. Let your death be the same."