Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Wait ... You said that Superman pushed the star of a miniature solar system using nothing but his bare hands in Busiek's Trinity series?And that Superman sent Wonder Woman traveling HOW many miles with the energy of a single punch to the jaw when they fought near the sun?
How did that go down again?
😕
I swear you talk more about wonder woman then anyone I have ever known.
Originally posted by catver9
😂 I love this guy (no homo).
awww catver loves me. And I tolerate you cat.
Originally posted by Zack Fair
GIVE ME CARV's XBOX Live.CARV. FIGHT ME ON LIVE NOW
=d
Well I have a feeling he'll never take-up the challenge. He claimed I was avoiding playing against him on LIVE when he never sent me an invite to any games, never sent me a message challenging or even inviting me to a game to try to get me to play against him, and at the time, we did not even have a single game to play against each other. We both have CALL OF DUTY: GHOSTS GOLD now, but since then, he's only challenged me once to play against him that night, said he'd send me an invite later, never did send that invite, and still claims I'm avoiding him.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The World War Hulk scenario featured Black Bolt screaming in Hulk's face.Superman got taken down by Live wire using hypersonics only a fraction of that magnitude.
Unless he's bringing neutronium plugs, I'd really like to know how Clark makes it past that first hurdle.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/9055/1343864-blackbolt_whisper.jpg
Like Lurking pointed-out, Black Bolt's attack isn't sound based. Secondly, since when did Livewire have "hypersonics?" Her powers are electric manipulation. Third, the only time I know of where Livewire ever took her down, there was quite a bit of context, and Superman wasn't out. You are one who leaves-out context when it suits you, so it wouldn't surprise me if the example you're citing is bullshit.
Originally posted by Delta1938
Like Lurking pointed-out, Black Bolt's attack isn't sound based.
Probably a plus in this scenario, as Black Bolt and Hulk fought on the moon, IIRC, where thinner air would otherwise have lessened the power of a purely sound based attack.
In fact, Bolt's voice weapon has many of the effects associated with sound with, seemingly, near zero the limitations of sound.
It's certainly murder on people with unprotected ears, though, super or not, as
Incredible Hulk #175 demonstrates, even as the scene with Gladiator alluded to earlier suggested:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20A-E/HulkvsBlackBolt08.jpg
Originally posted by Delta1938
... since when did Livewire have "hypersonics?"Her powers are electric manipulation.
They still are. But she can use those powers of electric or electron manipulation, much like Black Bolt, to create attacks that appear and function more or less identically to hypersonic attack.
Check Flash #237, Volume 2.
Originally posted by Delta1938
Third, the only time I know of where Livewire ever took her down, there was quite a bit of context, and Superman wasn't out.
"Took HER down"?
You've got me somewhat curious now -- what instance ARE you talking about?
Did you mistype or are you referring to something else?
Livewire DID take on Supergirl, and perhaps that's who you're referring to with "her", but the Supergirl fight is definitely not the episode I'm talking about here.
😕
Originally posted by Delta1938
You are one who leaves-out context when it suits you ...
I "leave out context" when it would benefit me greatly, too, and far more often than the reverse.
It doesn't seem to occur to you that some people don't have the instant online resources you apparently possess and could ever be limited in any way in that area.
If you like context, though, I welcome you to post the relevant scenes of Flash #237. Remember this is the one where the Flash kids, Jai and what's-her-name, help their father out on this case ...
Superman has taken hypersonic blasts and even magical hypersonic blasts which could kill anybody else from Silver Banshee. Heck, Supergirl took a sonic blast equivalent to a billion decimals.
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5161/supergirlbilliondecibel.jpg
FYI, that would be more than the whole energy in the universe.
😬
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Probably a plus in this scenario, as Black Bolt and Hulk fought on the moon, IIRC, where thinner air would otherwise have lessened the power of a purely sound based attack.In fact, Bolt's voice weapon has many of the effects associated with sound with, seemingly, near zero the limitations of sound.
It's certainly murder on people with unprotected ears, though, super or not, as
Incredible Hulk #175 demonstrates, even as the scene with Gladiator alluded to earlier suggested:http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20A-E/HulkvsBlackBolt08.jpg
They still are. But she can use those powers of electric or electron manipulation, much like Black Bolt, to create attacks that appear and function more or less identically to hypersonic attack.
Check Flash #237, Volume 2.
"Took HER down"?
You've got me somewhat curious now -- what instance ARE you talking about?
Did you mistype or are you referring to something else?
Livewire DID take on Supergirl, and perhaps that's who you're referring to with "her", but the Supergirl fight is definitely not the episode I'm talking about here.
😕
I "leave out context" when it would benefit me greatly, too, and far more often than the reverse.
It doesn't seem to occur to you that some people don't have the instant online resources you apparently possess and could ever be limited in any way in that area.
If you like context, though, I welcome you to post the relevant scenes of Flash #237. Remember this is the one where the Flash kids, Jai and what's-her-name, help their father out on this case ...
Similar logic to this...
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'm surprised that a Skyfather like Zeus defeated Hulk when Zeus' Top-Tier son Hercules has lost to Hulk.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Probably a plus in this scenario, as Black Bolt and Hulk fought on the moon, IIRC, where thinner air would otherwise have lessened the power of a purely sound based attack.In fact, Bolt's voice weapon has many of the effects associated with sound with, seemingly, near zero the limitations of sound.
It's certainly murder on people with unprotected ears, though, super or not, as
Incredible Hulk #175 demonstrates, even as the scene with Gladiator alluded to earlier suggested:http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20A-E/HulkvsBlackBolt08.jpg
I know some writers have interpreted it as "quasi-sonic," but in creation it's a specific electron power tied to the speech center of his brain, so it activates when speaking. Writers apparently mistook that for a sonic attack. Anyways, Superman's taken sonic attacks on several occasions with little if any problem, including when weakened and it right in his face.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
They still are. But she can use those powers of electric or electron manipulation, much like Black Bolt, to create attacks that appear and function more or less identically to hypersonic attack.Check Flash #237, Volume 2.
I checked it. Livewire was attacking Flash's kids with "broadcasts on every frequency." When Superman jumped in, either he wasn't being hit, or it simply didn't effect him, as he wasn't bothered at all. She took him down with an electric blast, not what you're arguing. Not Superman's finest moment, but it's simply a low showing. Do you need the scans to confirm you got it wrong?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
"Took HER down"?You've got me somewhat curious now -- what instance ARE you talking about?
Did you mistype or are you referring to something else?
Livewire DID take on Supergirl, and perhaps that's who you're referring to with "her", but the Supergirl fight is definitely not the episode I'm talking about here.
😕
I was referring to a different instance(that I've seen argued out of context to attack Superman), but I typoed.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I "leave out context" when it would benefit me greatly, too, and far more often than the reverse.It doesn't seem to occur to you that some people don't have the instant online resources you apparently possess and could ever be limited in any way in that area.
If you like context, though, I welcome you to post the relevant scenes of Flash #237. Remember this is the one where the Flash kids, Jai and what's-her-name, help their father out on this case ...
The problem is you're a straight-up Superman detractor. You're basically a more well written JBL who can mostly get his continuities straight. I know everybody makes mistakes, but it seems you rely on using examples you haven't actually read to argue against Superman. I generally avoid using examples I haven't read, asking for issue references so I can check it. But at least when I do, I make a disclaimer that I got it second hand.
For example, you tried to detract Superman's performances against Imperiex Probes compared to Wonder Woman's. You tried to argue Superman easily punched through them but Wonder Woman didn't not because he's stronger than her, but he's more durable than her and she would be hurt by the energy discharge. You're completely ignorant of the fact that, at the time, Superman was the only one who had punctured an Imperiex Probe, and it was literally minutes or less before we see Diana fighting one, so Wonder Woman and the rest of the JLA had no clue. But I wonder why it never occurred to you if your argument was valid, why Diana was REALLY trying to puncture one, attacking it with an axe at the same time Aquaman was punching it, instead of trying to restrain it somehow. Doesn't make much sense to avoid breaking something by hitting it with an axe.
Another instance is your ignorance of all the context in the moon incident in NEW KRYPTON. Where you post JLA #75 Earth moving, then claim Wonder Woman got a power-up when you haven't actually posted anything to back that up, and claim Superman had a power down because you ignore context and that there never was any storyline weakening Kryptonians.
An hey, you also try to dismiss OUR WORLDS AT WAR as a whole because you claim INFINITE CRISIS retconed it, while ignoring that, by that argument, it would mean JLA #75 was retconned too so you don't have a base for your argument.
But I do digress. You'll just dance around this all anyways.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Yes.Please.
Show me I'm wrong.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Captain%20Nazi%20exposure/A1
Originally posted by Delta1938
I was referring to a different instance(that I've seen argued out of context to attack Superman), but I typoed.
I'd be interested in knowing which episode you're referring to.
Livewire's record against super AND non-super heroes seems to be rather lacking.
I actually stumbled upon a website that features some of her more memorable poor showings:
http://arousinggrammar.com/2014/03/14/livewire-attempts-crime/
Originally posted by Delta1938
Livewire was attacking Flash's kids with "broadcasts on every frequency." When Superman jumped in, either he wasn't being hit, or it simply didn't effect him, as he wasn't bothered at all. She took him down with an electric blast, not what you're arguing. Not Superman's finest moment, but it's simply a low showing. Do you need the scans to confirm you got it wrong?
Thank you for the scans.
Do know that, while I take issue with some aspects of your behavior, I have ALWAYS genuinely appreciated your willingness to support a discussion by providing those for people.
-----
On to the discussion at hand:
If you examined some of the offerings on the page I link above, you'll find that Livewire's standard fare is lightning-bolt like zaps.
They're apparently fairly standard Electro-type zaps, and affect people accordingly.
Against normal people they debilitate, potentially even kill.
Against people with metahuman durability they startle, shock, and can even knock them around a bit.
Supergirl, hit with one such bolt, finds her flight toward Livewire interrupted and unexpectedly brought to Earth.
Superman, hit on two or three occasions in the offering featured there, shows greater ill effect, but arguably no worse than someone who had a fireman's hose set on them.
The effect on Batgirl, a normal human insulated by a rubber suit, however, is even less impressive than that betrayed by Kara.
Livewire herself acknowledges she has nothing to prevent Stephanie from having her way at that point.
So standard Livewire is standard electricity, a threat roughly on the level of a thunderstorm to someone who is really, really unlucky and literally gets struck by lightning.
Awesome to look at, but, survive-able with proper precautions by ordinary folk, and more or less an annoyance to the Kryptonian class.
Originally posted by Delta1938
Livewire was attacking Flash's kids with "broadcasts on every frequency." When Superman jumped in, either he wasn't being hit, or it simply didn't effect him, as he wasn't bothered at all. She took him down with an electric blast, not what you're arguing. Not Superman's finest moment, but it's simply a low showing. Do you need the scans to confirm you got it wrong?
Originally posted by Delta1938
http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Captain%20Nazi%20exposure/A1
If you read my prior post, or checked that link I gave earlier:
http://arousinggrammar.com/2014/03/14/livewire-attempts-crime/
... you've probably figured out that I disagree with you.
Standard Livewire attacks are perhaps fireman hose level threats on a GOOD day. On the average day, they are more akin to garden hose streams.
Don't feel good, but not likely to kill, and not even terribly likely to knock out.
But ... is what we see in Flash #237 standard Livewire fare?
You see Livewire zap somewhat as she normally does, see Superman rendered insensible
(you did not show the scan that features that, by the way, something you would take me to task for were our positions reversed, omitting that last page)
and conclude
"This is some writer giving Superman a low showing.
Electricity doesn't have that effect on him."
Which is probably true.
However, Livewire is not attacking with standard lightning.
She's attacking with an electron/electric based assault that has heavy sonic and hypersonic components.
Sound like Black Bolt?
If you read any biographies on how his powers work, it should.
Proof? Your own scans.
Note those high-pitched "EEEE" sounds punctuating the images.
Note Linda removing that device from her ears as Livewire attacks.
Note the Flash children holding their hands along the side of their heads in pain.
Note Livewire herself telling them their EARDRUMS should have burst.
Note the "EEEE" sound that again appears as Superman, who previously shook off STANDARD Livewire attacks, is sent crashing into a car and into dreamland, having only enough awareness to mumble to Jai while consciousness drifts away.
Compare to the scene of Hulk falling victim in similar fashion, moving forward saying he's alright only to collapse with "ringing in my ears" from Black Bolt's version.
And there's fairly solid history behind this in any era.
Recall now Kal's cousin Kara nearly dropped from a holding back Black Canary.
Witness her again drop in Supergirl #45 as Special Police use a device called the screamer against her and her friends.
Forget any debacles with the Silver Banshee. Her attack is not like Black Bolt's.
Her attack needs the magic component of her opponent's true name to be fully effective. Her attack can be outrun by anyone fast enough to beat the speed of sound, as Kara demonstrates in Supergirl #34, Volume 5.
But air waves do not move at the speed of electrons, as do Black Bolt's and Livewire's assaults.
And standard sound waves cannot keep their power as you ascend higher and higher into Earth's atmosphere out into space, where Superman took Silver Banshee.
Did lack of air save Gladiator from hearing Bolt's secret?
Did it make the ordeal World War Hulk endured on the moon, even taking out a chunk of the moon IIRC, unimpressive?
So we know the right kind of sonic style attack puts Superman down.
Livewire shows us this.
In this thread's World War Hulk scenario, where Superman must endure a very similar attack from Bolt as his first obstacle, and of FAR greater magnitude, does he go any further without prep or outside aid?
In the present moment, I'm having difficulty seeing that.
Are we really using one low showing which isn't even relevant here as Superman's average here? Because if you don't know, Superman has a rogue who can kill pretty much everyone with a scream. Silver Banshee, here she even knows his kryptonian name which should have killed Superman outright.
End result? He beat each and everyone of them, that was after he was fighting for days non-stop.
Byrne Superman was put into coma by the same attack FYI. But as we all know, Blue only sees low showings for Superman. But going by that standard, Superman would laugh Black Bolt's scream off.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Marvel/FantasticFourv141117.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Marvel/FantasticFourv141118.jpg
So yeah, STFU already.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If you read my prior post, or checked that link I gave earlier:http://arousinggrammar.com/2014/03/14/livewire-attempts-crime/
... you've probably figured out that I disagree with you.
Standard Livewire attacks are perhaps fireman hose level threats on a GOOD day. On the average day, they are more akin to garden hose streams.
Don't feel good, but not likely to kill, and not even terribly likely to knock out.But ... is what we see in Flash #237 standard Livewire fare?
You see Livewire zap somewhat as she normally does, see Superman rendered insensible
(you did not show the scan that features that, by the way, something you would take me to task for were our positions reversed, omitting that last page)
and conclude
"This is some writer giving Superman a low showing.
Electricity doesn't have that effect on him."Which is probably true.
However, Livewire is not attacking with standard lightning.
She's attacking with an electron/electric based assault that has heavy sonic and hypersonic components.
Sound like Black Bolt?
If you read any biographies on how his powers work, it should.Proof? Your own scans.
Note those high-pitched "EEEE" sounds punctuating the images.
Note Linda removing that device from her ears as Livewire attacks.
Note the Flash children holding their hands along the side of their heads in pain.
Note Livewire herself telling them their EARDRUMS should have burst.
Note the "EEEE" sound that again appears as Superman, who previously shook off STANDARD Livewire attacks, is sent crashing into a car and into dreamland, having only enough awareness to mumble to Jai while consciousness drifts away.Compare to the scene of Hulk falling victim in similar fashion, moving forward saying he's alright only to collapse with "ringing in my ears" from Black Bolt's version.
And there's fairly solid history behind this in any era.
Recall now Kal's cousin Kara nearly dropped from a holding back Black Canary.Witness her again drop in Supergirl #45 as Special Police use a device called the screamer against her and her friends.
Forget any debacles with the Silver Banshee. Her attack is not like Black Bolt's.
Her attack needs the magic component of her opponent's true name to be fully effective. Her attack can be outrun by anyone fast enough to beat the speed of sound, as Kara demonstrates in Supergirl #34, Volume 5.
But air waves do not move at the speed of electrons, as do Black Bolt's and Livewire's assaults.
And standard sound waves cannot keep their power as you ascend higher and higher into Earth's atmosphere out into space, where Superman took Silver Banshee.
Did lack of air save Gladiator from hearing Bolt's secret?
Did it make the ordeal World War Hulk endured on the moon, even taking out a chunk of the moon IIRC, unimpressive?So we know the right kind of sonic style attack puts Superman down.
Livewire shows us this.In this thread's World War Hulk scenario, where Superman must endure a very similar attack from Bolt as his first obstacle, and of FAR greater magnitude, does he go any further without prep or outside aid?
In the present moment, I'm having difficulty seeing that.
You simply wrote a long winded way of saying "I'm assuming what Livewire did is the same a what Black Bolt does and I'm assuming Silver Banshee is irrelevant."
The kids are downed from a different attack, but even if we assume Superman is downed from the same, it's not the same thing Black Bolt does. She is using an attack of various broadcast frequencies. Black Bolt simply "blasts" electrons at you, activated by talking, since it's tied to the speech center of his brain.
But you say Silver Banshee is irrelevant? You're basing this on her "death wail" or whatever it was called. She can also simply attack with hypersonics. I mean if all it was is she says your name to kill you, how is she damaging the Batjet? Saying "Batman's aircraft?"
And she's screaming right in Superman's face. With what Superman compares to "10 atomic bombs going off in your skull." Even if you argue hyperbole, it's clear this is meant to be a very powerful hypersonic attack and not what you tried to dismiss Silver Basnhee's death wail with. Even right in his face, it doesn't take him out.
And this was when Superman was being effected by Kryptonite albeit to an unknown degree. The Kryptonite meteor that was the whole point of what was going on had come in range to be felt on Earth about the same time the apparently Pre-CRISIS Superman came to try and kill New Earth Superman, so Supes fought an Above Top-Tier while Kryptonite was in range for him to feel i. Also handled Kryptonite. And that was before this scene.
And it's funny you bring-up that instance of Supergirl fighting Silver Banshee. Not sure if you're arguing because Silver Banshee doesn't know Kara's name, or you're arguing that Kara had to avoid the attack, because when we first see the fight, Silver Banshee is right in Kara's face, grabbing her top, screaming with what Kara says is a billion decibels. What is that supposed to prove again? That Kryptonias don't like Silver Banshee screaming in their faces even though they can take it without being dropped? Also, I didn't add the last part because it wasn't relevant to my point of different attacks.
And since you have Abhi on ignore, I'll quote him.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Are we really using one low showing which isn't even relevant here as Superman's average here? Because if you don't know, Superman has a rogue who can kill pretty much everyone with a scream. Silver Banshee, here she even knows his kryptonian name which should have killed Superman outright.End result? He beat each and everyone of them, that was after he was fighting for days non-stop.
Byrne Superman was put into coma by the same attack FYI. But as we all know, Blue only sees low showings for Superman. But going by that standard, Superman would laugh Black Bolt's scream off.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Marvel/FantasticFourv141117.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Marvel/FantasticFourv141118.jpgSo yeah, STFU already.
I'll expand on what happened before what Abhi showed(since he only briefly touched on it), Superman had gone through energy drain and Kryptonite exposure on top of all the fighting Abhi mentioned, in a strategy produced by Master Jailer to weaken Superman before he faced Mongul, an intelligent Bizarro and Silver Banshee.
Originally posted by catver9
Looks like Blue Water is in here owning.
Cat, shut up and go back to looking at the pretty pictures. And who is it you're getting to read the thread for you?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol carver. Trying to drum up support and fan the flames as per usual.
I though I'd tell you on Xbox LIVE, he actually said he knows more about Superman than me. And he was serious. When I asked him how long he's been reading comics, he said, "Since the day I was born." I said, "You couldn't read then." He said, "I just looked at the pretty pictures." To which I pointed-out, "And nothing has changed, has it?"
