Originally posted by Beniboybling
You need to educate yourself on how not to be a condescending jackass, seriously.But anyway, on topic. G-Canon and T-Canon have been merged into simply Canon, but just like the previous canon is absolute and indisputable. So the OP is correct the claim that the Father is more powerful than anyone the Jedi have witnessed is indisputably canon and overrides Legends continuity.
Legends is not exclusive from Canon, it is bound by canon and remains answerable to canon, the reverse is not the case. So one cannot claim that Legends continuity has an agenda on anything that involves omitting/ignoring canon - again they are not mutually exclusive.
Given that you seem to except that, I fail to see your point.
P.S. Legends continuity also includes various statements that tout Sidious to be the most powerful dark sider ever so that is not a fact. In the absence of a retcon you have no grounds to dismiss these claims.
You perfectly stated what I have been trying to, for weeks. Just a heads up, you'll probably get the publication argument for the sources claiming Sidious is the strongest darksider, yet he seems to overlook the fact that his vaunted TOR Encyclopedia (while published more recently) doesn't overwrite anything past the TOR era.
I would like your opinion on something, though (and anyone else who wants to respond). Do the statements about Yoda and Sidious being the most powerful practitioners of Light/Dark side, at the time of ROTS, and the statement of Exar Kun being called "once, the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith" still stand? I'm willing to say Kuns should be listed as "one of the most powerful," because of the tOR Encyclopedia, but I think the Yoda/Sidious statement still stands.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'm on an iPhone out of town, so I can't make as detailed a response as I would like to. Being out of town, I also have no access to Appocalypse or quotes from it, so keep that in mind.
However, exercise caution while presenting information. If you do not have a source, it is better to not rely on it for reference.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
What is important to consider feat wise, is that while you may challenge all of these feats with ones in similar areas that rival these, the ones do possess all of these feats unlike the people you are trying to prove their rivals in certain areas.
However, your reasoning have a flaw, you are assuming that The Ones have performed all the previously mentioned actions (listed by you) and this may not be the case with others. DO NOT assume this, this is not sound reasoning.
We do not have a check-list of full extent of capabilities of each character of the mythos to make a comparison. I can point out talents and actions that The Ones have not demonstrated, so let us not get in to this kind of argument.
For example, consider Satele Shan. She have demonstrated remarkable performance in various talents, advanced telekinetic abilities, advanced telepathic abilities, advanced tutaminis abilities, advanced shatterpoint abilities and esoteric powers that others have not demonstrated yet. She didn't acquire such an understanding of the Force without learning many abilities. And it is obvious that full extent of her abilities are not known at the moment or may not be necessarily revealed.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
As far as the dread masters ability to shift their corporeal forms, correct me if I'm wrong, but did they not just change their physical size, while the Ones transformed their entire forms into something else entirely?
Very tough operation, Dread Masters demonstrated nearly endless Force abilities and talents.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yep, lightsabers are seemingly a danger to everybody else in a straight fight that the Ones have bypassed.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I do not have Apocalypse with me on vacation, so I cannot give you a quote for the mountain thing, but the Son's lightning overwhelming the defenses of one who has blocked a lightsaber blade with his hands with casual disdain is self-evident from the TCW episodes.
However, I shall assume that your claim of Son obliterating mountains with Force lightning is baseless.
What I know from the referred novel is that Son possibly hurled some boulders like missiles with his telekinetic abilities during some of his battles, same was done by Daughter and Father.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Whether or not this was a passive or active ability is up for debate. It definitely seems more passive to me, but either way it still outshines the examples you have brought up. Vitiate caused lightning storms through rituals, which is not as impressive as doing it passively or through active will. And the examples you provided me of Jedi and Sith doing similar things were not quite as extreme as instantaneously shifting an extreme environment to its polar opposite, and many of these were either done through ritual or not overly impressive (ie fog).
I am not getting the polar opposite part, did Son and Daugher shifted the entire environment of Mortis without exerting or something? I don't think this is true.
Also, everybody didn't perform feats of Alter environment with rituals. Some performed very impressive feats in this respect without exerting much.
Emperor Vitiate exerted because he attempted to influence the entire environment of a very large planet. Do you realize how big Dromund Kaas is? It is much larger then planet Earth (real) and planet Katarr (fictional).
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Talzin hasn't teleported as instantaneously as the Ones, and Jadus has not demonstrated as much range with this power, or the ability to do something like teleport onto a moving ship.
Have a look at a harrower-class cruiser:
Large image: http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130206031728/starwars/images/c/c7/Doombringer01.jpg
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Eh the stealth one is quite common, but the Son's ability to not be sensed at all by a third Jedi ten feet away from him when his companions are already in panic, right after teleport in is arguably one of the most impressive displays of this power.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Provide me an example if I'm wrong, but this necromancy from ancient Sith sorcerers seems to be limited to summoning spirits and reanimating corpses. In any case, that is not the only impressive thing about that feat. The Daughter also purge the Dark Side from Ahsoka's body after she had been literally infected with it.
I don't find purging of dark side from Ahsoka a unique accomplishment, sounds like redeeming effort through telepathic influence. In-fact, Emperor Vitiate twisted many Jedi to dark side with his telepathic influence.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Name one person who could beat Anakin that quickly in melee combat with thy much casual disdain.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
The clarity and breadth of their foresight is still highly impressive. Admittedly this was not my strongest point, I was merely demonstrating their knowledge.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I don't have access to Apocalypse right now, but even if it is as you say, the Ones were still capable of augmenting an entire race to a very great extent from halfway accross the Galaxy on a planet meant to cut them off from the rest of the Galaxy. So even if you are correct, this is still a very tremendous feat in both magnitude and range at the same time.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
You completely missed the point of the lifespan thing. I was pointing out that the Father's dying after billions of years is not a mark of inferiority to anybody else considering that the Ones have lived longer than anyone else in the mythos by a factor of one million. Vitiate's lifespan has not been tested nearly to the extent that the Ones' have, and they too are considered corporeally immortal. I'm not trying to discredit Vitiate here, I'm merely saying that Using the Ones' lifespans to discredit them in comparison with other characters is almost axiomatically fallacious.
Emperor Vitiate's ability to last limitlessly should not be in doubt, he achieved the necessary condition for this. However, wars lead to destruction.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Disney did away with th hierarchy in existing canon, which does not include Legends. There is nothing indicating that the hierarchy no longer exists in Legends. In fact the source that established this hierarchy technically falls under Legends now, so it is fully applicable in the Legends continuity.As I have previously mentioned, just because a source is added to the lore does not allow it to overwrite other sources of higher standing. Only elements or statements originating from Lucas hold this standing.
Just because a new statement is made doesn't mean older statements are invalid when they are not contradicted by newer statements. In any case, if you choose to consider Canon and Legends part of the same continuity, then as Canon, TCW has a higher standing then SWTOR incontestably. If you look at them as separate, then new statements by Disney have absolutely no bearing on the Legends continuity.
Disney have abolished the hierarchy-driven canon policy. It have relabeled G-canon and T-canon content as Canon and relabeled C-canon content as Legends. Legends continuity doesn't have hierarchy of its own, you are misrepresenting Disney's actions.
Yes, Canon continuity have higher value then Legends continuity much like G-canon and T-canon content had in comparison to C-canon content. I never disputed this, I simply pointed out that Legends continuity contradicts Canon continuity in matters of most powerful Force-users. You may choose to favor any continuity but this contradiction is not going to vanish.
Legends continuity is like an alternate universe to main Star Wars mythos.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Again, I lack access to Apocalypse right now, but IIRC this quote is from the convo where Luke explains the story of Abeloth and the Ones to everyone else. In any case it'll take more than one misrecalled quote for you to successfully destroy my credibility if that's what you want to stoop to.
Get access to Apocalypse novel and then come back to me.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I believe he is referring to this:
“Not yet,” Tahiri said. “You’re still thinking on a mortal scale, like Vader or Palpatine. Think bigger, like a storm or a tide. Like a living Force volcano.”
However, it should be put in context, a companion of Tahiri was not getting the nature of Abeloth, Tahiri informed him to not think like mortals about this matter, her point was to not think about Abeloth in materialistic manner.
Entities are very hard to explain, they are unnatural powerful manifestations of energy or something. Just look at Sel Makor.
Here is the full dialogue exchange though:
Tahiri shook her head. “Abeloth is no herbivore, Fett. She feeds on fear. Anguish. On what beings feel as they suffer and die.”
Fett’s helmet swung back. “You’re telling me she feeds on death?”
“Not in the way you mean,” Tahiri replied. “She feeds on the feelings death causes. Fear and pain release a lot of dark side energy. That’s what Abeloth is after.”
Fett fell silent, and Tahiri could tell by the stillness in his Force aura that she was finally making him understand what they were up against—that he needed her help
for more than just finding his scientists. He needed her to get him out of the Moon Maiden alive.
Finally, Fett nodded. “Okay, she’s a Force-drinker,” he said. “I get it.”
“Not yet,” Tahiri said. “You’re still thinking on a mortal scale, like Vader or Palpatine. Think bigger, like a storm or a tide. Like a living Force volcano.”
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nobody ever claimed the ones are unstoppable. Do they surpass every other Force User in existence? Yes. Do they possess true immortality? Yes. Are immortality and invincibility mutually exclusive? Yes.
1. Do they surpass every other Force-user in existence? Possible
2. Do they possess true immortality? No (Father was dying)
3. Are immortality and omnipotence mutually exclusive? No (The Ones would never perish if this was true)
Immortality is about ever-lasting life, however, in Star Wars, it does not equates omnipotence. Omnipotence represents its highest stage.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Evidence that they surpass every known living Force User:1. Leland Chee confirmed on his offical Twitter account that the Father is the most powerful Force-wielder in existence.
https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/status/352618406517809153
Considering the Son and the Daughter rival him in power we can assume they are just beneath him.
Do we have reason to doubt Leland Chee's word? No. Leland Chee is a member of the Lucasfilm Story Group
And according to Leland Chee himself:
Star Wars Canon is now determined by the Lucasfilm Story Group which [Pablo Hidalgo] and I are both a part of.
https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/status/420071186232385536
Therefore any statements made my Leland Chee or any other member of the Story Group on matters of Star Wars fiction must be considered canonical, to assume otherwise is to willfully ignore his authority.
However, why Lucasfilm Story Group did not reiterate this assertion at official capacity?
In the mysterious realm of Mortis there exists a trio of beings able to wield the Force in ways no known mortals of the galaxy can. The Father maintained balance between his Daughter and his Son, who expressed affinity to the light and dark sides of the Force, respectively. The Father knew his days were numbered -- facing his impending demise, he needed to find another to keep the balance. His goal was the same described in an ancient Jedi prophesy -- the rise of a Chosen One who will bring balance to the Force.
Source: http://www.starwars.com/databank/father
Because Mr. Chee is the boss, His decisions can be overruled by the boss of Lucasfilm Story Group who is Carrie Beck.
Allow me to introduce to you the full members of Lucasfilm Story Group:-
- Carrie Beck (Director)
- Diana Williams (Producer)
- Leeland Chee (Holocron Keeper)
- Pablo Hidalgo (Brand Manager)
Poof.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
2.My children and I can manipulate the Force like no other, therefore it was necessary to withdraw from the temporal world and live here as anchorites.
--the Father
Do we have reason to doubt the Father? No. The Father had demonstrated potent awareness of powerful beings in the galaxy proven by his knowledge of the Chosen One and his ability to draw him to Mortis using a Jedi distress call. It is also likely that the Father has been waiting and therefore searching for the Chosen One for a very long time.
The Ones, used to live in a planet, long ago and they had disputes back then. Guess what? Galaxy remained in-tact. Universe remained in-tact.
Abeloth forced The Ones to flee from this planet. Afterwards, The Ones resided in Mortis and made arrangements to trap Abeloth within the MAW system. Son and Daughter joined Killiks in their effort to build a complex system to prevent escape from Abeloth to the galaxy at large and not pursue them either.
As far as awareness of Father is concerned;
"When news reached me that the Chosen One had been found, I needed to see for myself."
Doesn't sounds like Father being aware of presence of Chosen One in the galaxy from his powers.
Also, The Ones kept contact with the outside world and this is why they would often activate a tracking signal, outsiders would often find this signal, visit them, learn about them and inform them about developments in the galaxy at large. By chance, Anakin Skywalker found this tracking signal or so it seems. Earliest known contact made with The Ones in Mortis was around 24,500 BBY by a guy named Xendor.
Of-course, I am not doubting the ability of The Ones to use the Force to sense developments and disturbances in the galaxy at large but they were not as aware as you presume them to be because they restricted themselves to Mortis.
As far as Father's remark is concerned, he was dying and he craved a replacement to ensure control over his siblings. When Anakin Skywalker arrived, Father attempted to manipulate him to convince him to consider his offer or fulfill his agenda. Best way to do this is to present scary stories about why his siblings had to be contained.
Learn to understand stories, Beni.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
The Ones have also shown a collective awareness of the Jedi, Sith and the current conflict occuring in the galaxy i.e. the Clone Wars.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And finally considering it is the Father's duty to maintain balance in the Force, he likely therefore maintains an exceptionally strong connection to both the Living and Cosmic Force, which would give him the ability to sense the presence and gauge the ability of powerful beings in the galaxy.To conclude, it is highly unlikely and baseless to assume that powerful Force wielders existing in the galaxy would escape their notice.
Father did not ensured balance of the Force at cosmic scale, he ensured balance in Mortis, among his siblings, in symbolic manner.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Do we have reason to assume that the term "mortal" leaves room for other Force Users contending with their power? No. Because no know Force Users have every successfully achieved immortality.NOTE: The definition of immortality is infinite life. Considering the profound longevity of the Ones we have little reason to believe that their claim to immortality is hyperbolic. Furthermore, considering the One's all came into being at the same time, it is highly unlikely that the Father's decline was a result of old age - as the Daughter and Son despite being of the same age remained youthful. With immortality also comes wisdom, and it is suggested that the One's had a superior understanding of the Force in comparison to mortal beings:
...In effect, a higher order of intermediaries, whose powers were beyond the understanding of mortal beings.
--Darth Plaguies.
A possible theory was that the imbalance in the Force was causing the Father to die, considering how deeply tied his is to the Living and Cosmic Force and effectively embodies balance.
Remembering that the Father is immortal, but not invincible.
---
Emperor Vitiate was very powerful in the ways of the Force even as a natural being:
The child who will come to be known as the Sith Emperor is born. Black-eyed, heartless, and supremely strong in the dark side of the Force, the boy seizes control of his homeworld by the age of 13 and earns the title Lord Vitiate. He amasses an army of Sith followers and turns his back on Imperial politics to hone his skills in the dark side. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
However, Emperor changed after orchestrating a terrifying ritual, he transcended mortality:
The Emperor was no longer a member of the Sith species; his power and immortality had transformed him into a being unique in the galaxy. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)
&
Lord Vitiate takes command of the Sith Empire, now in shambles following the Great Hyperspace War. He executes the Sith Council and consumes the life force of thousands of Sith Lords in a terrifying ritual that extends his life and vastly increases his capacity as a practitioner of the Force. Lord Vitiate declares himself Emperor of the Sith. Under his sovereign rule, the Empire retreats into deep space to rebuild its strength and prepare for vengeance. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
&
Under the guidance of the Emperor—the immortal and all-powerful savior who still reigned over them even after a thousand years—they abandoned the hedonistic lifestyles of their barbaric ancestors. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)
---
Emperor achieved corporeal immortality, and he continued to grow in power with passage of time:
Servants of the Hand share their Master's longevity, living untouched by age for centuries under his command. In return, the Emperor draws on his servant's strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
--
Emperor Vitiate became a god-like being, the embodiment of the dark side itself:
Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side. (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
&
The Emperor is more than a man - he is the living embodiment of the dark side. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
&
He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
---
What some people don't understand is that the ritual of Nathema completely transformed Emperor Vitiate, his condition changed, he exceeded the limits of mortality itself, he became a god-like being, embodiment of the dark side itself, and possibly surpassed every Force-user in power at this point. He was not a normal individual now, comparing him with mortals in matters of strength and power is wrong, Emperor Vitiate continuously increased in power with passage of time. This is why so many failed to usurp him, even Strike Teams of powerful Force-users miserably flopped during confrontations with him (a Jedi Strike Team is not the only one to flop, I assure you). Emperor Vitiate fell due to circumstances, his most ambitious ritual was disrupted by his enemies and he lost much of his power in this manner. He began to recover afterwards but he was vulnerable and HoT (Hero of Tython) and his allies found a perfect opportunity to dispose him off at this point. However, Emperor Vitiate is not finished yet, he had achieved such depths of immortality, it is possible that he might return since his minions could hear his calls after his presumed demise. I hope Disney doesn't axe SWTOR project and give BioWare the go-ahead to expand existing stories.
---
In the nutshell:
The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry titled "The Emperor's Fallen Jedi (Knight)."😉
The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
---
Of-course, you pretend to pay attention, but you don't get the ground realities of Legends continuity because Emperor Vitiate somehow defies your worldview involving Yoda and Sidious.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Mystery on Mortis! Sent to discover the origin of a mysterious distress call, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, and his Padawan Ahsoka Tano are stranded on a distant planet. There, they discover three beings more powerful with the Force than any Jedi have seen before.--Altar of Mortis
Do we have reason to assume that this introduction is non-canonical? No. According to Lucasfilm "canon is everything on-screen" this is on screen, it is therefore canon.
Noting that the Jedi have witnessed effectively every Force user worth mentioning in relation to the Ones.
However, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia, was released in 2012 under supervision of both LucasArts and LucasFilms and it contradicted TCW in the matter of most powerful Force-users.
Disney took over Star Wars by 2014 and its official stance regarding The Ones is in front of you people, mentioned earlier. In-fact, Disney asserts that The Ones are like god-like beings but they have left room for competitors by asserting that The Ones are superior to any known mortals.
Disney is implying that mortals cannot rival The Ones in power. However, as apparent from revelations in EU (Legends continuity), practitioners of the dark side, can transcend immortality and become more powerful then mortals, possibly rival The Ones as well.
You may give importance to the 2011 accolade of The Ones, but it isn't the end of the world. You can also believe that according to legends, Emperor Vitiate is the most powerful Force-user. In this manner, both ground realities are justified and a middle-ground is achieved.
At minimum, Emperor Vitiate came closest to rivaling The Ones in power and capabilities in history. Good enough for you?
Originally posted by Kalen SykesI try. 😛
You perfectly stated what I have been trying to, for weeks. Just a heads up, you'll probably get the publication argument for the sources claiming Sidious is the strongest darksider, yet he seems to overlook the fact that his vaunted TOR Encyclopedia (while published more recently) doesn't overwrite anything past the TOR era.I would like your opinion on something, though (and anyone else who wants to respond). Do the statements about Yoda and Sidious being the most powerful practitioners of Light/Dark side, at the time of ROTS, and the statement of Exar Kun being called "once, the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith" still stand? I'm willing to say Kuns should be listed as "one of the most powerful," because of the tOR Encyclopedia, but I think the Yoda/Sidious statement still stands.
I believe, especially given the wording. That the statement made in regards to Exar Kun is definitely time bound, considering Sidious has a similar statement in the same guide.
So Exar Kun was the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith, until Sidious came along. This doesn't dispute TOR either because the Sith Emperor was never recognised as a Dark Lord of the Sith.
How many times does this need to be said? Legends cannot contradict, overwrite, or otherwise affect Canon continuity. It doesn't matter when TOR Encyclopedia was released, because when Disney created the new Canon parameters, TCW superseded TOR. You keep saying that Legends continuity can affect Canon, but the fact remains it can't. Canon continuity is what Disney uses and accepts, while Legends continuity is where they put everything they don't want in their universe. Can that change in the future? Yes, but until that day comes, if it ever does, this is what we have. I apologize if it sounds like I'm ranting, but this is getting frustrating.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
# 2: Did Father maintained balance of the Force on cosmic scale?Yes, this is confirmed and reinforced by multiple sources.
1.
"As the balance of this world crumbles, so shall war escalate in your galaxy. As my son has descended into the dark side, so will the Sith gain strength."
--The Father
Do we have reason to doubt the Father's claim? No. The TCW show gives us no reason to doubt the Father's claim, and one would imagine that if that were there intentions they would have made it explicit. The notion that the Father was attempting to merely intimidate Anakin is baseless speculation as best. The threat of their tremendous power alone would be enough to convince Anakin that it was necessary to contain them.
Furthermore it is the Chosen One that the Father seeks out because he is destined to restore balance to the galaxy. He starts this process by first restoring balance to Mortis itself.
2.
It has been theorized by Jedi and Sith alike that balance between the light and dark sides was actually under the guidance of a group of discoporate entities - the ones called the Celestials, perhaps - who had merged themselves with the Force thousands of generations earlier, and continued to guide the fate of the galaxy ever since.
--Taken from Darth Plagueis
Do we have reason to doubt this theory? No. While a theory it may be it is one confirmed by actual events, the Ones's exist and they are former Celestials. If those claims are true why not the claim that they preside over the balance of the Force itself?
The intention here is irony, the One's exist and everything Plagueis dismisses as likely legend and metaphor is in fact very real.
3.
During the return of Abeloth in 44 ABY, Grand Master Luke Skywalker—the son of Chosen One—read the mission report in the Jedi Archives about his father and his mentor's experiences on Mortis. Combined with the information gathered from the Thuruht hive, Luke realized that his father's refusal to become the new Keeper of Balance had in fact set off a disastrous chain of events. With the death of the Ones, the galaxy began to slide into darkness; the number of conflicts and chaos in the last 65 years were evidence enough of that.
--Wookieepedia - Source: Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse
Do we have reason to doubt Skywalker's conclusions? No. Luke puts a good amount of research into this, consulting with the Killik hive who witnessed the creation of the Ones and have been around for eons.
Nor are we given any reason to doubt that Skywalker is telling is misinformed.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
# 2: Did Father maintained balance of the Force on cosmic scale?Let us re-examine some revelations from the official databank:-
The Father maintained balance between his Daughter and his Son, who expressed affinity to the light and dark sides of the Force, respectively.
&
Meanwhile, the Father attempts to stave off a disastrous showdown between his children and maintain the Force's increasingly precarious balance on the planet.
&
With all three Force-wielders destroyed, the imbalance in the Force disappears on Mortis.
Source: http://www.starwars.com/tv-shows/clone-wars/ghosts-of-mortis
These revelations imply that Father maintained balance in Mortis by keeping Son and Daughter under check. Nothing more.
Father did not maintain the balance of the Force on cosmic level. Some reasons:-
1. Darth Plagueis and Darth Sidious managed to influence the balance of the Force with joint effort by performing a ritual that lasted several months.
The question of whether he and Sidious had discovered something new or rediscovered something ancient was beside the point. All that mattered was that, almost a decade earlier, they had succeeded in willing the Force to shift and tip irrevocably to the dark side. Not a mere paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration that could be felt by anyone strong in the Force, and whether or not trained in the Sith or Jedi arts.
The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force’s proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended.Source: (Star Wars: Darth Plagueis)
2. Balance of the Force can shift depending upon various developments.
The sensation was completely alien. The Force was omnipresent. It radiated stronger in certain places and at certain times, and the balance of the dark side and the light constantly shifted. But it was always there in some way, shape, or form.
Source: (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
#3 Could Son and Daughter destroy the Universe, if they had left Mortis?1.
"You cannot imagine what pain it is to have such love for your children and realize they could tear the very fabric of our universe."
Another absolute statement from the Father, which for the same reason we have very little reason to doubt.
I am astounded as yo how you managed to reach this conclusion. The Son never had to fight Jedi or any mortal beings, when any of the Ones were confronted with by the Jedi they simple turned off their lightsabers and seemed completely unphased. This alone is a a strong indication that they could do nothing to harm them.
Nor is there any evidence to suggest he cannot break apart planets. He probably can. Again I am astounded as to how you managed to reach this conclusion, utterly astounded.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
2.The Celestials, of whom the One's are descents, possessed astonishing power that allowed them to shape the very galaxy itself.
Among their accomplishments are:[list][*]The creation of star systems, including the Corellian system and 17 others. They also possessed the power to destroy them.
[*]Were capable of moving planets and stars with tractor beams
[*]Engineered the hyperspace barrier surrounding the galaxy.
[*]Possibly constructed the entire galaxy, if not the universe itself.[/list] To put it simply, they are the architects of the modern galaxy. Now of course these feats were all established using technology, not the Force. But evidence suggests that for the Celestials technology and the Force were not mutually exclusive. For one the Rakata used the Force in all their technology, and they adopted their technology from the Celestials, and secondly Mortis is both a technological and Force based construct. It is a planet immensely strong in the Force enclosed within a massive pyramid and existing in a region detached from the temporal world.
This is an incredible feat, and one that one would assume would be impossible - to bend the very fabric of time itself - with technology alone. But with the Force? Anything is possible.
The point being made here is that for the Celestials the Force and technology were too halves of a whole, so if they can pull of galactic-scale feats with technology Force Wielding Celestials should be able to pull of galactic-scale feats with the Force.
Rakatans routed Celestials.
Covered this already:
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Some information about Celestials:-Very little is known about the galaxy's first civilizations, but the legends of the eldest spacefaring species tell an intriguingly similar story—about a terrible war waged with unimaginable weapons.
Pre-Republic specialists believe that the Columi, the Gree, the Kwa, and the Sharu all had contact with a species known as the Celestials, or the Architects, beings of astonishing power and malleable form. The Columi retreated from the stars after contact with the Celestials, and the Sharu sought refuge in primitivism. But the Gree, the Kwa, and the Killiks became their servants, helping build astonishing technological projects—projects some scientists believe included the assembly of star systems and the engineering of the hyperspace anomalies west of the Deep Core, if not the barrier surrounding our galaxy.
But another slave species revolted, wresting control of the Celestials' domain some thirty thousand years ago and waging war against the Gree, Kwa, and the Killiks. They were known as the Rakata, or the Builders, a species of bipeds with amphibian features whose technologies were powered by the Force.
Drawing on the Force made the Rakatan hyperdrive useless for traveling between points in realspace—instead, it homed in on the Force signature of planets brimming with life. Rakatan shields and energy weapons, meanwhile, used crystals to focus the Force.
The Force was fuel for the Rakata's Infinite Empire, and so they needed slaves—which they found on many worlds and trained to use their technologies. For millennia the Rakata ruled the galaxy, crossing space in their skipships, devastating planets with disruptor fields, and building armies of war droids. But then they too fell—cut off from the Force by a terrible plague. Their former slaves—humans, Duros, Herglic, Baragwin, Devaronians, Gossams, and others—rose up and hunted them down, leaving just a few bands of survivors in the Unknown Regions.
Those former slave species then reverse-engineered the Rakatan technologies, eliminating the role of focusing crystals and anything else that required the Force. A period of wild experimentation produced new technologies that became the basis of new territories—which then coalesced into the Republic.
Source: (Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Warfare)
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Basically, Rakatans routed Celestials.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
LeGenD, once again, T-Canon>C-Canon. There is no debate.
Look, I understand respecting Canon and related stuff, however, sourcebooks are not created in haste. They represent different perspectives and views.
I am simply keeping an open mind.
