Darth Nihilus vs The Sith Emperor

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I think that should be obvious. The only thing that separated Surik from Nihilus is that she was able to give up and live without the Force.

If Darth Nihilus is not cut off from the Force, then he have some baseline strength. However, Darth Traya claimed that he would fall if he runs out of food supply, food supply is other living beings.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And what you still don't seem to get is that KotoR II established a lot of new and different views of how the Force works and it's anomalies. Unless you've experienced it, by playing, watching, or examining it very closely, you will never know anything about what happens in it. This is why the game swirls with so much controversy. It isn't like most pieces of EU material.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Traya and Darth Nihilus used Force Drain. This power can be used to feed on life-force of living beings and also to kill. If used on a Force-user, it may sap powers of the target in the process.

Emperor Vitiate also performed these actions, he used Force Drain during the ritual of Nathema to consume all life on the planet. Later on, Emperor Vitiate used this power on some of his corporeally immortal servants to feed on their life-force, the power left these servants weak and diminished their ability to call upon the Force but they wouldn't die because of immortality. This is similar to situation of Darth Traya after being subjected to Force Drain from Darth Nihilus.

Darth Traya also confirmed that Force Drain is an ancient power, she is correct about this. However, her claim that this power cannot be taught to others is in question, she and Revan learned this power from somewhere and didn't acquire it instinctively. Emperor Vitiate didn't get formal draining so he learned this power instinctively like Darth Nihilus.

Once again, don't try to teach me about ground realities of Force powers. I don't need to play a game to determine how Force powers work.

The only difference is that KoTOR II goes to depth to explain the nature of Force Drain power. BioWare keeps explanations simple in comparison.

True. It has this amazing dark, even a bit gothic style that makes you actually understand the force's both sides. I honestly felt the serenity in Dantooine and the evil of the triumvirate while I played it. Playing it a few times makes it even better as you miss out some parts at first.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I'll ponder over this, member Beniboybling confused me about this matter.

If Darth Nihilus is not cut off from the Force, then he have some baseline strength. However, Darth Traya claimed that he would fall if he runs out of food supply, food supply is other living beings.

The only difference is that KoTOR II goes to depth to explain how Force Drain works.

All said in game, and shown throughout the story. It's pretty well explained.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's because when Nihilus isn't feeding, he's feeding on himself

Which is one of the reasons why I rank him below Vitiate. Along with millennia of experience, insane FLS and mind domination.

Also he randomly pulled of a feat where he summons copies of himself while he was weakened. I'm sure he had a lot of other feats like that and could use them against Nihilus. Although his knowns feats are enough to prove his superiority imo.

Nihilus at full strength would be more than a match for Vitiate, but this isn't about who's more powerful. This is about who would win in a duel. And those copies are literally the saddest thing the HoT fights besides Callef.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's because when Nihilus isn't feeding, he's feeding on himself.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Then you obviously still don't understand. The version of Force Drain seen in KotOR II is a different variation called Drain Force. Even in game, they are two separate powers. Drain Life, i.e. what you keep claiming Force Drain is, steals the life from an individual. It kills them by stealing their "life energy." Drain Force is a variation that can only be taught by being a Force Wound, or by staying on Malachor V. It doesn't take life energy away. It forcibly removes one from the Force, killing them. The user also consumes this power and becomes stronger, permanently. The Exile, because she was cut off from the Force, did not indulge in feeding on others, and so did not develop the problem that Nihilus did. Nihilus overindulged on feeding and began feeding on himself. This version of Force Drain also does not work on Force Wounds and has no defense against it.

All said in game, and shown throughout the story. It's pretty well explained.

Do you recall what happened during ritual of Nathema? Emperor consumed entire biota of the planet, including the Force itself surrounding the planet and left the planet a void in the Force.

Emperor and Nihilus acquired same power which is Force Drain, both learned it instinctively. Both mastered this power to its highest degree.

Force Drain, Drain Force, Drain life are all synonyms of the same power.

Darth Traya also learned this power, she unleashed it on 3 Jedi Masters and outcome was same what Darth Nihilus achieved with it.

In a game, same power have stages or different variants. But this is simply game mechanics. Just like this: Force lightning -> Chain lightning -> Force Storm.

KoTOR II is an old source, it is not necessary that it got everything right. Newer sources tend to improve older concepts.

Just ignore him guys. He's rambling on about things he doesn't know about and trying to retcon things he doesn't like.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Nihilus at full strength would be more than a match for Vitiate, but this isn't about who's more powerful. This is about who would win in a duel. And those copies are literally the saddest thing the HoT fights besides Callef.

What does that even mean? Nihilus at full strength means that he consumes every force user in the galaxy and Vitiate had a similar vision.

Galaxy consumed Vitiate > Galaxy consumed Nihilus.

So if you are referring to Nihilus peak which is probably right after Katar, he is definitely not more than a match. If the drain doesn't work, he would still be vulnerable and it wouldn't be a stomp.

"The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. His corrupting influence is so complete that none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred. The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side."

Vitiate is canonically the most dominating Force User the Galaxy has ever seen, no one predating him surpasses him in terms of power. Not Exar Kun, not Nomi Sunrider, and not Darth Nihilus.

That said, it's hard to truly judge what a fight between Darth Nihilus and another top-tier Force User would be like.

You've obviously just ignored what I said, and while Drain Force and Drain Life are two separate powers, not even in the same tree like you just tried to imply, I was talking about the one used in cutscenes which is said to be different. I'm not confused about anything, Nathema became a wasteland because all the life there died. This made Natema a wound in the Force.

Anyway, I'm done. If you think your opinions somehow override every other source, be my guest.

Originally posted by Sinious
What does that even mean? Nihilus at full strength means that he consumes every force user in the galaxy and Vitiate had a similar vision.

Galaxy consumed Vitiate > Galaxy consumed Nihilus.

So if you are referring to Nihilus peak which is probably right after Katar, he is definitely not more than a match. If the drain doesn't work, he would still be vulnerable and it wouldn't be a stomp.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What exactly you are pointing that I got wrong?

That Surik can't use Force drain, it's an innate talent of her wound which we've seen strike down all the Jedi Masters

and

Traya did teach the Exile dark techniques and tried to refrain her from just using the light, she wanted her Grey. So you're wrong by saying Traya only taught her the ways of the Jedi.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Anyway, I'm done. If you think your opinions somehow override every other source, be my guest.

Agreed.
I no longer even find it funny trying to debate a game with someone who's never played it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just ignore him guys. He's rambling on about things he doesn't know about and trying to retcon things he doesn't like.

Do you understand what happened during ritual of Nathema? Do you?

No, I have no idea at all.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You've obviously just ignored what I said, and while Drain Force and Drain Life are two separate powers, not even in the same tree like you just tried to imply, I was talking about the one used in cutscenes which is said to be different. I'm not confused about anything, Nathema became a wasteland because all the life there died. This made Natema a wound in the Force.

Anyway, I'm done. If you think your opinions somehow override every other source, be my guest.

Nihilus at the fullest extent of his power shown, not at the highest possible form, why would you even think that, would be a match for Vitiate. There's no reason for Drain not to work, and he still has godly TK, as well as dominating a duel while weakened with three combatants. Obviously Galaxy Vitiate is one a whole other level, but Vitiate as we see him is comparable with a powered Nihilus.

KoTOR-CG revealed two powers:-

1. Dark Healing
2. Drain Force

Darth Nihilus and Darth Revan learned Drain Force. Darth Traya also, though not mentioned in KoTOR-CG.

Force Drain or Drain Force is a complex power which is used to consume life-force of living beings and possibly even sap the powers of the target. Darth Nihilus consumed life-forces of others to satiate his hunger.

Nathema didn't become a wound in the Force, it became a void in the Force. Emperor Vitiate consumed entire biota in this world and also stripped the planet from the Force itself with use of Force Drain or whatever you like to call. Special blah blah.

This is not my opinion, this is how the powers wielded by Darth Traya and Darth Nihilus have been described in sourcebooks.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I have no idea at all.

Originally posted by Selenial
That Surik can't use Force drain, it's an innate talent of her wound which we've seen strike down all the Jedi Masters

and

Traya did teach the Exile dark techniques and tried to refrain her from just using the light, she wanted her Grey. So you're wrong by saying Traya only taught her the ways of the Jedi.

- Ok! What dark side techniques she taught to Meetra Surik?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
- I never claimed Surik used Force Drain. She never learned this ability, at-least officially.

- Ok! What dark side techniques she taught to Meetra Surik?

Firstly, she never learned it no. You said she couldn't use it, and she could. As evidenced by the Dark Side kotor 2, which is indeed a good interpretation of what powers the characters would use if they wanted to. Surik wasn't darkside, so she refused to use the power.

Specific Dark Side powers? Few. She taught Surik how to force her way into each of the companions minds, against their will, which all of them considered Dark Side if Surik spoke to them of it. She taught Surik more Dark Side philosophies however, she was rarely a teacher of power, more philosophy.

She scolded Surik for being kind to a peasant on Nar Shadaa, saying the man hadn't shown the strength to deserve it, and gave proof when the man was killed for the credits Surik gave him.
She told Surik off for injuring herself in the name of saving companions. Scolded Surik for keeping Visas Marr alive, but was overjoyed when Surik said she wished to use Marr as a way to kill her enemies.

The list goes on and on.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, you do not.

And he can admit it.

Originally posted by Selenial
Firstly, she never learned it no. You said she couldn't use it, and she could. As evidenced by the Dark Side kotor 2, which is indeed a good interpretation of what powers the characters would use if they wanted to. Surik wasn't darkside, so she refused to use the power.

Originally posted by Selenial
Specific Dark Side powers? Few. She taught Surik how to force her way into each of the companions minds, against their will, which all of them considered Dark Side if Surik spoke to them of it. She taught Surik more Dark Side philosophies however, she was rarely a teacher of power, more philosophy.

She scolded Surik for being kind to a peasant on Nar Shadaa, saying the man hadn't shown the strength to deserve it, and gave proof when the man was killed for the credits Surik gave him.
She told Surik off for injuring herself in the name of saving companions. Scolded Surik for keeping Visas Marr alive, but was overjoyed when Surik said she wished to use Marr as a way to kill her enemies.

The list goes on and on.

Are these options forced on the character?