Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
MM should be the most powerful. Shapeshifting, intangibility, one of the greatest Psionics, almost as strong as Superman , Superspeed, FV. But he is not as popular.
Originally posted by leonidas
lol when you say it like that. i was trying to find the book with mm and joker to review the scene but couldn't find it. any idea where it took place again?bizarro has physiological differences as well. he's literally different physically. joker? joker is ALL darkness. i think equating the 2 is actually apples and oranges. i'd love to have seen black try taking on the joker's mind. i have no problem thinking he would not be able to do so. credit to you and delta for convincing me black could take this in tp, but like i said earlier i still think it's pretty damn close...
You mean the scene where J'onn temporarily makes Joker sane?
Also, even if you don't think Joker's mind and Bizarro's are similar enough for this comparison, J'onn failed to read Bizarro's mind while Manchester rewired it. Similar with Doomsday too.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He's also done it whilst in Fernus mode...Well, unless you want to separate them a la Sentry/Void....
Well, IIRC their minds, DNA AND souls were all different. And the Guardians specifically altered the Burning Martians because they were too powerful, or whatever the exact details were.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah. I guess its one of those at which point was it Fernus, and at which point was it MM.
And Fernus not only altered Joker's mind but all those others, and it seemed more permanent. You could argue different writers, but I would argue that Fernus doing a greater feat than what J'onn barely accomplished just supports that Fernus was separate from J'onn.
Originally posted by Delta1938You mean the scene where J'onn temporarily makes Joker sane?
Also, even if you don't think Joker's mind and Bizarro's are similar enough for this comparison, J'onn failed to read Bizarro's mind while Manchester rewired it. Similar with Doomsday too.
lol damn, had the right arc but the wrong book.... anyway, cool. i wonder--is the feat more impressive because joker has the worlogog in his hands?
ds raised the issue of the spectre with joker which is a great point. mm has also invaded the spectre himself on a couple occasions iirc, not to mention having entered mageddon, though that didn't go all that well ultimately. still a cool feat.
i'm still a bit undecided regarding the bizarro feat vs joker feat. i i still think it's apples and oranges and so the term 'better' needs to be qualified. i wish black would have tried on the joker. not sure he could do much better than mm did. i've brought up the tweaking of dd a couple times. he really only redirected dd, but that is more than mm seemed able to do. i do tend to think there is some pis involved in many mm stories--and i almost never call pis. were he able to solve all the problems in stories with tp, wellllll.... you know. as a result, we do see him fail more often, but his best feats are still ridiculously impressive. i mean, mm himself has said his powers are MORE than just tp.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/27470/1137165-martian_manhunter__2006__03_page_07.jpg
as a result, he has MORE to filter (and so emotions come into play often with him, and cis where black has no such inhibitions...) and i think that may explain why he can fail at times.
as far as fernus--mm eventually overcame him. for these battles, i don't think we can use his fernus feats though. he seemed to be not only stronger, but to have new power applications as well. was fernus a pis-less mm? maybe, but i don't think it matters here. fernus certainly demonstrated greater tp powers than even black though.
Originally posted by leonidas
lol damn, had the right arc but the wrong book.... anyway, cool. i wonder--is the feat more impressive because joker has the worlogog in his hands?ds raised the issue of the spectre with joker which is a great point. mm has also invaded the spectre himself on a couple occasions iirc, not to mention having entered mageddon, though that didn't go all that well ultimately. still a cool feat.
i'm still a bit undecided regarding the bizarro feat vs joker feat. i i still think it's apples and oranges and so the term 'better' needs to be qualified. i wish black would have tried on the joker. not sure he could do much better than mm did. i've brought up the tweaking of dd a couple times. he really only redirected dd, but that is more than mm seemed able to do. i do tend to think there is some pis involved in many mm stories--and i almost never call pis. were he able to solve all the problems in stories with tp, wellllll.... you know. as a result, we do see him fail more often, but his best feats are still ridiculously impressive. i mean, mm himself has said his powers are MORE than just tp.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/27470/1137165-martian_manhunter__2006__03_page_07.jpg
as a result, he has MORE to filter (and so emotions come into play often with him, and cis where black has no such inhibitions...) and i think that may explain why he can fail at times.
as far as fernus--mm eventually overcame him. for these battles, i don't think we can use his fernus feats though. he seemed to be not only stronger, but to have new power applications as well. was fernus a pis-less mm? maybe, but i don't think it matters here. fernus certainly demonstrated greater tp powers than even black though.
I didn't see anything indicating he was using the Worlogog in that manner.
Since Manchester Black was stated to be an equal or superior telepath to J'Onn(and showed it by keeping the truth from J'onn), he'd have the raw power(or more) that J'onn had to invade Spectre's mind. Could he do the same? Maybe, maybe not. J'onn might have needed skill and not just raw power.
Actually I was pointing-out if you're still on the Apples And Oranges thing on Joker/Bizarro, we can look how J'onn failed to READ Bizarro's mind in an issue of SUPERMAN/BATMAN(Abhi posted it previously), where Black teepathically "fixed" Bizarro to have normal intelligence. Personally, even if we go about how Joker's and Bizarro's minds are different, I'm more impressed by Manchester "fixing" Bizarro's mind on a more long term basis than J'onn straining to temporarily make Joker sane. But again, compare what J'onn failed to do(read Bizarro's mind) to Black "fixing" Bizarro.
And Black had completely altered Doomsday's mind to the point his perceptions were completely altered on Imperiex, seeing him as Superman. Brainiac is a telepath who created an immensely powerful illusion on essentially a world-wide scale, while he was in a coma on New Genesis(inter-stellar if not inter-galactic distance AND crossing dimensional barriers). And when his body was dying and some machines helped him enter Doomsday's body, he could only control Doomsday for so long before Doomsday took back control(although this could've been his adaptive evolution power). So it's kinda hard to telepathically do anything against Doomsday.
And interesting scan, but it's really just a fancy term for "really far reaching telepathy." I guess that's not what the author intended, but I can't agree with the description being "more" than telepathy.
On Fernus, seemed Fernus was pretty weakened after "giving birth." Or did you mean J'onn overcoming Fernus' mental imprisonment? It's been a while since I read it, but I thought J'onn had help. I'd have to check again.
And to me it seemed like the storyline was making it that Fernus was more than just a CIS/PIS-less Martian Manhunter.
Originally posted by leonidas
lol when you say it like that. i was trying to find the book with mm and joker to review the scene but couldn't find it. any idea where it took place again?bizarro has physiological differences as well. he's literally different physically. joker? joker is ALL darkness. i think equating the 2 is actually apples and oranges. i'd love to have seen black try taking on the joker's mind. i have no problem thinking he would not be able to do so. credit to you and delta for convincing me black could take this in tp, but like i said earlier i still think it's pretty damn close...
OK. Black has controlled people from different universes. Thousands of them actually.
have the scans but can't recall the issue number. i THINK spectre 51.
http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv50/jokertheclownprince/jokermisc-jimspectre1d.jpg
it says spectre hadn't fully recovered but...that's a bit lame and regardless, a cool feat for the joker who instantly took command of the spectre. making joker sane is a truly uber feat, even if it only lasted for a short time.
Originally posted by leonidas
have the scans but can't recall the issue number. i THINK spectre 51.http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv50/jokertheclownprince/jokermisc-jimspectre1d.jpg
it says spectre hadn't fully recovered but...that's a bit lame and regardless, a cool feat for the joker who instantly took command of the spectre. making joker sane is a truly uber feat, even if it only lasted for a short time.
It's a good feat for Joker, but if Spectre was stabbed with the Spear Of Destiny(which I believe was capable of killing him; it damn near killed a powerful Elemental, and I think Gaea or whoever along with the Elemental due to their connection), I'm not sure if I'd call J'onn making him sane "truly uber" in context. I'll have to check the storyline later.
And it is SPECTRE #51, found it in my collection.
we'll just disagree on the level of joker's insanity i suppose then. i don't recall how long prior to this take over the spear stabbing was, but spectre didn't seem to be suffering from it in any other way. still it was pointed out by the writer, but he was non-specific in regards to how far from 'fully recovered' the spectre was. regardless, still a great feat and a testament to the nature of joker's mind. could i see bizarro pulling that off? not in any way shape or form.....
Originally posted by leonidas
we'll just disagree on the level of joker's insanity i suppose then. i don't recall how long prior to this take over the spear stabbing was, but spectre didn't seem to be suffering from it in any other way. still it was pointed out by the writer, but he was non-specific in regards to how far from 'fully recovered' the spectre was. regardless, still a great feat and a testament to the nature of joker's mind. could i see bizarro pulling that off? not in any way shape or form.....
😕 Why do you keep bringing-up Bizarro compared to Joker even though Abhi and I said if you don't think "fixing" Bizarro's mind is more impressive than temporarily making Joker sane, there's the fact that J'onn failed to read Bizarro's mind compared to what Manchester Black did?
well, there is the fact that mm didn't actually 'fail' per se to read bizarro's mind. rather in what appeared to be a casual psi reading he just uncovered a lot of noise that he didn't seem to care about even trying to unravel. it wasn't that he couldn't get in bizarro's mind, it was simply that he didn't really try sorting anything out in it. could he have had he applied some serious effort? imo probably, so i don't find his 'failure' there as telling as you guys seem to or rather i don't find black's control of bizarro as great a feat as you guys do. anyway, the discussion has about run it's course. i agree that black is likely the slightly more powerful tp. is he as skilled as mm? dunno, maybe. i'd give black a very slight edge in the tp department. interesting discussion. 👆
Originally posted by leonidas
well, there is the fact that mm didn't actually 'fail' per se to read bizarro's mind. rather in what appeared to be a casual psi reading he just uncovered a lot of noise that he didn't seem to care about even trying to unravel. it wasn't that he couldn't get in bizarro's mind, it was simply that he didn't really try sorting anything out in it. could he have had he applied some serious effort? imo probably, so i don't find his 'failure' there as telling as you guys seem to or rather i don't find black's control of bizarro as great a feat as you guys do. anyway, the discussion has about run it's course. i agree that black is likely the slightly more powerful tp. is he as skilled as mm? dunno, maybe. i'd give black a very slight edge in the tp department. interesting discussion. 👆
Well doesn't seem there's a point in replying other than noting that Black didn't control Bizarro's mind as much as "fix" it.
yeah, he 'cleaned' it i think is the word. i wonder though how much of that was tp and how much was tk or a combo. the whole thing was sorta...odd imo. the shock wave of a nuclear blast drove him batty again, apparently, though the way he was sweating before the blast i don't know if he was fighting the control or afraid of the blast. strange. and i don't think mm really gave bizarro's mind anything more than a cursory glance, so what he may have accomplished had he really tried something more is hard to say. still black also had banshee and mongul (apparently) under control so again, a great feat, no doubt.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Yup. This happens so many times in this forum, literally the same people make threads that are thinly disguised as real threads when they're actually just a setup for the thread starter to promote their favorite character.
So that you can mercilessly beat them down and show them how wrong you think they are?I mean, you've obviously seen every appearance of both, and more importantly, made your mind up about what they represent. IOW, no one is going to change your opinion.
But you seem most interested in changing others'.
Why is it so important? Is it so you can pump up another of Superman's foes, whilst putting down one of his colleagues?
The sad part is that abhi literally has nothing better to do right now than to make us all love superman in a convoluted manner.
This is better for a respect thread, not a false debate
