Originally posted by Nephthys
You don't have to be supreme to be considered powerful. Do me a favor, go look up the definition of the word "powerful", because you clearly don't fully grasp its meaning. Having great strength in the Force is all that's required. Something your average Jedi Master or Sith Lord possess.
As per your logic, even Cin Drallig and Coleman Trebor are powerful Force-users. 🙄 (Ridiculous)
In contrast to Jedi ranks, Sith ranks are theoretically power-oriented. Only the greatest of the Jedi can match a Sith Lord in single combat, not average Jedi Master or Knight.
Jedi and Sith are superhuman and superior to normal beings in the mythos, they can be regarded as powerful individuals from this context or from the perspective of normal individuals. However, my point is about Jedi and Sith who are genuinely powerful as per their respective Order standards in history, basically elites of both Orders.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Bullshit, we don't need official confirmation of people being powerful for them to be so. Common sense dictates that if they've demonstrated parity with other powerful individuals, they're powerful as well.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Besides, I am pretty damn sure Ventress and Obi-Wan have been stated to be powerful in official materials.
Originally posted by Nephthys
That's just a no-shit thing, they're obviously powerful Force Users. Sidious himself felt Ventress was TOO powerful and ordered her death.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Even the Nightsisters of Dathomir are stated to be powerful in the database and Ventress is superior to the majority of them.
http://www.starwars.com/databank/nightsisters
Sometimes, your responses are irritating. Do your homework before you embark on wild claims.
You may assert with confidence that Mother Talzin is powerful but you cannot make this claim for every Nightsister.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Whats so bad about forming out own judgements? We do it all the time. You do it every time you suggest a character is on Dooku's level. You need to learn to actually critically think about these things instead of blabbing halfcocked about wherever you think a vague statement might be pointing at.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nox didn't impress Khem at this point, Khem constantly talks about the Inquisitor being an insect compared to Hord and generally says Nox is shit all the time to her face and threatens to kill her. Nox beat a weakened Khem and he was forced to obey her.
Khem Val found it difficult to come to terms with the fact that another Sith bested him apart from Tulak Hord. However, he eventually recognized greatness of Darth Nox and accepted that he is adequate replacement for Tulak Hord.
And where it has been pointed out that Khem Val was weakened during the time he met Darth Nox? Trying to downplay Darth Nox's feats now?
Focus on the CONTEXT and don't make stuff up, Nephthys.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Millions of Sith complete the trails. Who cares. Doesn't stop full Sith Lords from getting stomped by a Smuggler.
Darth Nox's graduation is unique in this way:
RAVAGED BY THE GREAT WAR, the Sith Order allows Force-sensitive slaves into its ranks. Most slaves are too weak to complete the trails. But one slave displays incredible cunning and a fearsome talent for the dark side. Begrudgingly instructed by Overseer Harkun, the slave acolyte conquers the trails, dominates a Dashade assassin named Khem Val into servitude, and overwhelms the other students, including a Sith pureblood groomed for success. Despite Overseer Harkun's attempts to sabotage the slave and preserve pure Sith legacy, the acolyte triumphs to become a Sith Inquisitor. The enigmatic Sith Lord Zash embraces the inquisitor as her apprentice, begining the former's slave ascension to power. (TOR Encyclopedia)
Your feeble attempts to downplay Darth Nox will not work.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, you are absolutely right. They have never been tested as much as Nox was. Apprentice Nox was surely their superior based upon this fact alone, which is clearly a sensible conclusion to make. This 100% true fact is something that I am stating for the record as being completely accurate. Nothing they have faced compares to Nox being sent to 3 locations, fighting worms, droids and failed acolytes and performing basic fetch-quests. Truly Nox is without equal. I think Nox should be banned from threads because she is just so fantastic.
Oh wait, as per your arguments, Khem Val was weakened and Darth Nox never defeated any person of note during the Sith trials that are stupidly stated to be deadly. 🙄
My sincere advice: stop hiding details and be honest in your representation. I will stop taking you seriously otherwise and its loss that you will feel one day.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Being one of the best of the Order obviously makes you powerful. Again, you clearly have no idea what the word powerful actually means.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, they're powerful. 😐Saesee Tiin was said to "one of the strongest Force abilities of all the Jedi."
Don't be ridiculous, Nephthys. I expected better from you.
Bastilla Shan have one of the strongest Force abilities of all the Jedi. Guess what? Battle Meditation.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku has defeated Windu in lightsaber combat before the PT, when he was still a Jedi. That Yoda couldn't capture Dooku still puts him above losers like Skotia and Zash.Don't make stupid assumptions.
And Skotia and Zash are now losers? Facepalm of highest degree.
You have lost your element, Nephthys. Seriously. stop debating and take a break.
SW LegendAs per your logic, even Cin Drallig and Coleman Trebor are powerful Force-users. (Ridiculous)
Cin *is* powerful.... by normal standards.
Send a couple random sith warriors against him and he'd slice them apart. A band of pirates, dead. A minor Sith Lord from TOR? Still going to go down. Darth Vowrawn? Yep, my money is solidly on Drallig. It's just, like, put him against someone on a Sith or Jedi Council who got there for combat prowess, and he's going to find himself outmatched.
Coleman specifically got promoted for diplomacy, so he's specifically not-powerful by the standards of masters, so he's not as good an example as Drallig, but Drallig's not 'not powerful' either.
This is why you need to define your terms as you mean them and not just toss them around without explanation. Because you honestly do seem to rate 'not powerful' and 'mediocre' as "Anyone not in the top 0.1% of any order,' effectively.
At that point I don't think they're even useful descriptors. Especially as you tend to only throw them around when talking about characters of *other* eras...
Originally posted by Q99
This is why you need to define your terms as you mean them and not just toss them around without explanation. Because you honestly do seem to rate 'not powerful' and 'mediocre' as "Anyone not in the top 0.1% of any order,' effectively.
Originally posted by Q99
At that point I don't think they're even useful descriptors. Especially as you tend to only throw them around when talking about characters of *other* eras...
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Jedi Masters do not become Masters on the basis of strength, they typically become Masters because they train other Jedi in the ways of the Force and have good track record and reputation.As per your logic, even Cin Drallig and Coleman Trebor are powerful Force-users. 🙄 (Ridiculous)
In contrast to Jedi ranks, Sith ranks are theoretically power-oriented. Only the greatest of the Jedi can match a Sith Lord in single combat, not average Jedi Master or Knight.
Jedi and Sith are superhuman and superior to normal beings in the mythos, they can be regarded as powerful individuals from this context or from the perspective of normal individuals. However, my point is about Jedi and Sith who are genuinely powerful as per their respective Order standards in history, basically elites of both Orders.
Jedi Masters are the best of the Order in a number of ways, including power. While the Order does promote people by way of wisdom and other factors, it's stated that the Jedi tend to find that those people have a deep grasp of the Force anyway and power is a consideration.
As Q said, yeah Drallig holistically was a powerful Jedi. Trebor was an exception, but compared to your average Knight his ability would likely be considered great.
That only applies to the RoT Sith, where all their Sith are elite. A Jedi Master is a match for a Sith Lord in all other era's, yes even the TOR era. The Jedi are beating the Sith in TOR. Master = Lord.
In terms of Order standards anyone above the norm is considered powerful. Powerful just means possessing above average or great strength. That applies to many Jedi Masters and Sith at any one time.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In some cases, it is possible to determine if a character is powerful even if not officially verified as such. However, such cases are not common.
It's more common than you'd think.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Provide evidence.Provide evidence.
You kidding? Obi-Wan was a match for Darth Maul, one of the most powerful Sith in history stated as such in official material. Ventress was praised by Darth Sidious for her impressive lightsaber skills and stated to be "very powerful".
I'm not bothering to look into it more than that. If you refuse to accept the basic facts about these characters than I don't care.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Pulling shit our of your () is becoming your new specialty?http://www.starwars.com/databank/nightsisters
Sometimes, your responses are irritating. Do your homework before you embark on wild claims.
You may assert with confidence that Mother Talzin is powerful but you cannot make this claim for every Nightsister.
Do my homework? I suggest you do yours:
http://www.starwars.com/databank/asajj-ventress
"Ventress’ life took many sad turns, leading her from light to dark and places in-between. She was born on Dathomir, home of the Nightsisters -- a society of powerful female witches."
As you can see, the term powerful can be broadly applied to many, many people. I'd say the average Nightsister is less impressive than a Jedi Knight too, considering their performance against Grievous.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Judgments should have basis. I do not argue for the sake of argument.
Of course they need to be based on evidence. But you also need to apply logic to come to sensible judgements and statements. Which you rarely do these days.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is Khem Val's ego talking.Khem Val found it difficult to come to terms with the fact that another Sith bested him apart from Tulak Hord. However, he eventually recognized greatness of Darth Nox and accepted that he is adequate replacement for Tulak Hord.
And where it has been pointed out that Khem Val was weakened during the time he met Darth Nox? Trying to downplay Darth Nox's feats now?
Focus on the CONTEXT and don't make stuff up, Nephthys.
He eventually recognised Nox's greatness because Nox eventually became worthy of his respect. Nox didn't start out as incredibly powerful, she had barely been a Sith for a few days or weeks by the time she fought Khem.
Stop accusing me of making stuff up. You haven't played the story so you have no clue whether my descriptions are inaccurate or false.
"Fine, fine little one. In my great weakness you have defeated me."
Do I need to explain the meaning of the word weakness to you as well?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Millions of Sith do not complete the trials, few do. The trails are designed to differentiate strong from weak, many perish in the trials as well.
There are millions of Sith in the order. They've all completed the trials. Try again.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Nox's graduation is unique in this way:RAVAGED BY THE GREAT WAR, the Sith Order allows Force-sensitive slaves into its ranks. Most slaves are too weak to complete the trails. But one slave displays incredible cunning and a fearsome talent for the dark side. Begrudgingly instructed by Overseer Harkun, the slave acolyte conquers the trails, dominates a Dashade assassin named Khem Val into servitude, and overwhelms the other students, including a Sith pureblood groomed for success. Despite Overseer Harkun's attempts to sabotage the slave and preserve pure Sith legacy, the acolyte triumphs to become a Sith Inquisitor. The enigmatic Sith Lord Zash embraces the inquisitor as her apprentice, begining the former's slave ascension to power. (TOR Encyclopedia)
Your feeble attempts to downplay Darth Nox will not work.
Yawn. I know all of this Legend. You're boring me with this irrelevant stuff.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Oh, nice way to underestimate Darth Nox by using terms such as failed acolytes. Did you conveniently forget Darth Nox's performance against Khem Val and top student of his batch?Oh wait, as per your arguments, Khem Val was weakened and Darth Nox never defeated any person of note during the Sith trials that are stupidly stated to be deadly. 🙄
My sincere advice: stop hiding details and be honest in your representation. I will stop taking you seriously otherwise and its loss that you will feel one day.
Ahahaha, you see this is what comes of not playing the game and only reading the sourcebook. Nox never fought Ffon (the top student of her batch). When the encyclopedia says she overwhelms him it's being metaphorical. Zash kills Ffon at the end of the Korriban questline for trying to lie to her.
And Khem was weakened as I proved above AND no Nox didn't defeat anyone of note during the trial other than Khem.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I doesn't takes an Einstein to figure out what is powerful.
Your ridiculous definition of it suggests you can't even accomplish that however. Stop trying to move the goalpost by deciding for yourself who you'll recognize as powerful or not. It's so lame.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Oh yes! Kit Fisto was so powerful that he couldn't even Force-push Grevious properly. In comparison to him, Obi-Wan send Grevious packing a big distance away from him. And we tend to regard Obi-Wan lacking in telekinetic abilities but notice the disparity in power between the two?Don't be ridiculous, Nephthys. I expected better from you.
Bastilla Shan have one of the strongest Force abilities of all the Jedi. Guess what? Battle Meditation.
What terrible lowballing from you. Fisto performed that push in the middle of a duel without much time to concentrate, Obi-Wan was in a saberlock and was able to visibly put effort and concentration into the push. Fisto is a powerful Jedi by the definition of powerful, as is Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan only lacks in telekinetic prowess compared to the other greats of his era. His feats are still great in that area compared to your average Jedi Master or Sith Lord.
The quote was talking about Tiin's overall Force abilities, not a specific technique he possessed. He's a very powerful Jedi in official material.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It was a sparring match, Nephthys. Jesus, you are getting more ridiculous with each response.And Skotia and Zash are now losers? Facepalm of highest degree.
You have lost your element, Nephthys. Seriously. stop debating and take a break.
That Windu lost a sparring match still suggests parity between the two. You don't lose in a practise duel if you're significantly better than your opponent.
Compared to Count Dooku they are, yes.
Nah, I'm kicking your candy ass up and down these forums boyoo.
Originally posted by Q99
Cin *is* powerful.... by normal standards.
By Jedi standards? No
Originally posted by Q99
Send a couple random sith warriors against him and he'd slice them apart. A band of pirates, dead.
Count Dooku found himself in a difficult situation when he was up against a bunch of pirates. Now want me to point out how good Count Dooku is? Well, he would rip Cin Dralling apart with bare hands. Ok, maybe this is too much but he will cut down Cin Dralling in a single attempt.
Originally posted by Q99
minor Sith Lord from TOR? Still going to go down.
Originally posted by Q99
Darth Vowrawn? Yep, my money is solidly on Drallig.
[FANTASY]I forgot that Cin Dralling is a match for a Dark Council member and is also more battle-hardened and proven then even the longest lasting members of the Dark Council.[/FANTASY] 🙄
Don't be ridiculous.
Originally posted by Q99
It's just, like, put him against someone on a Sith or Jedi Council who got there for combat prowess, and he's going to find himself outmatched
Originally posted by Q99
Coleman specifically got promoted for diplomacy, so he's specifically not-powerful by the standards of masters, so he's not as good an example as Drallig, but Drallig's not 'not powerful' either.
Originally posted by Q99
This is why you need to define your terms as you mean them and not just toss them around without explanation. Because you honestly do seem to rate 'not powerful' and 'mediocre' as "Anyone not in the top 0.1% of any order,' effectively.At that point I don't think they're even useful descriptors. Especially as you tend to only throw them around when talking about characters of *other* eras...
Well, an unidentified Zabrak Jedi collapsed two buildings around the position of Darth Malgus in an effort to kill him. This is an absolutely logical confirmation of a genuinely powerful Jedi by Jedi standards, in-fact, this individual is also representative of the quality of the Jedi Order in his era in general.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Jedi Masters are the best of the Order in a number of ways, including power. While the Order does promote people by way of wisdom and other factors, it's stated that the Jedi tend to find that those people have a deep grasp of the Force anyway and power is a consideration.
Power and combat prowess are often considered for evaluation but accomplishments representing Jedi ideals or services for the Jedi Order matter more for progression and ascension to Jedi High Council.
Consider the title of Barsen'thor, it have been awarded to only 3 Jedi in history. It have been awarded for extraordinary achievements and sacrifices, however, was every Barsen'thor a super-strong Force-user? No.
In addition, competence level of Jedi Order have fluctuated in different eras. Jedi Order used to be at its finest or top shape during Old Republic era but it wasn't as strong during NJO and Legacy eras.
While the Jedi Order never regained the size or strength it had during the Old Republic era, it became an influential force during the years of the New Republic and the Galactic Alliance, with the Skywalker line providing much needed leadership. (Star Wars: Legacy Era Campaign Guide)
I believe that the Jedi Order reached its peak in the matters of strength and competency during SWTOR era in the aftermath of Dark Wars because valuable lessons were learned from those events.
Originally posted by Nephthys
As Q said, yeah Drallig holistically was a powerful Jedi. Trebor was an exception, but compared to your average Knight his ability would likely be considered great.
Kao Cen Darach is much better then Cin Drallig, this disparity is era specific due to greater demand for competency and preparedness of the Order during SWTOR era then during PT era when Sith were thought to be extinct and peace prevailed.
One Sith Lord survived—Darth Bane—and his vision for the Sith differed from that of his predecessors. He instituted a new doctrine: No longer would the followers of the dark side build empires or amass great armies of Force-users. There would be only two Sith at a time: a Master and an apprentice. From that time on, the Sith remained in hiding, biding their time and plotting their revenge, while the rest of the galaxy enjoyed an unprecedented era of peace, so long and strong that the Republic eventually dismantled its standing armies.
But while the Republic seemed strong, its institutions had begun to rot. Greedy corporations sought profits above all else and a corrupt Senate did nothing to stop them, until the corporations reduced many planets to raw materials for factories and entire species became subjects for exploitation. Individual Jedi continued to defend the Republic's citizens and obey the will of the Force, but the Jedi Order to which they answered grew increasingly out of touch. And a new Sith mastermind, Darth Sidious, at last saw a way to restore Sith domination over the galaxy and its inhabitants, and quietly worked to set in motion the revenge of the Sith … (Publisher analysis of history, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)
Originally posted by Nephthys
That only applies to the RoT Sith, where all their Sith are elite. A Jedi Master is a match for a Sith Lord in all other era's, yes even the TOR era. The Jedi are beating the Sith in TOR. Master = Lord.
Republic and the Jedi Order gained upper-hand over the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire because the Empire internally fractured due to rivalries between several super-strong Sith for supremacy and betrayals of extreme magnitude such as Emperor's Wrath going out of his way to join the Jedi and help them upsurp the Emperor.
Heroes of light and darkness form an unlikely alliance to bring down the monstrous Sith Emperor and stop his horrific plans for the galaxy. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
On the contrary Republic and Jedi remained united and resilient in their cause and exploited internal rivalries in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire to gain advantage and eventually destroyed it in the long run.
Originally posted by Nephthys
In terms of Order standards anyone above the norm is considered powerful. Powerful just means possessing above average or great strength. That applies to many Jedi Masters and Sith at any one time.It's more common than you'd think.
Powerful Force-users are mostly officially identified as such and can be determined in few cases on the basis of feats performed but they are not norm, this is why they are powerful by mythos standards or by faction standards, because they are above norm. Look at these examples.
Charismatic, powerful, and a respected Jedi, Revan would soon rally the Republic against a new enemy. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
Scheming, powerful, and evil to the core, Darth Sidious restored the Sith and destroyed the Jedi Order. (Star Wars: Databank)
Why is there a need to explicitly pinpoint that these are powerful Force-users? If many powerful Force-users exist in an era by virtue of being Masters, then these statements loose their value. However, context is important to consider. Authors are pointing out that these Force-users are powerful by mythos standards or as per their faction standards, essentially among the elites, among the greatest.
If you think that only Force-users, powerful by mythos standards, are impressive in the ways of the Force, you are mistaken; powerful Force-users represent the APEX, however, norm is not pushover either. Plenty of Jedi and Sith perform impressive actions but they are not necessarily at the APEX of their factions. Look no further then stories of Zayne Carrick and Lord Scrabrous, these two aren't powerhouses by Jedi and Sith standards respectively but nonetheless capable warriors and decent in the ways of the Force.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You kidding? Obi-Wan was a match for Darth Maul, one of the most powerful Sith in history stated as such in official material. Ventress was praised by Darth Sidious for her impressive lightsaber skills and stated to be "very powerful".I'm not bothering to look into it more than that. If you refuse to accept the basic facts about these characters than I don't care.
Maul have never been stated to be one of the most powerful Sith in history, this is fanon assumption.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Do my homework? I suggest you do yours:http://www.starwars.com/databank/asajj-ventress
"Ventress’ life took many sad turns, leading her from light to dark and places in-between. She was born on Dathomir, home of the Nightsisters -- a society of powerful female witches."
As you can see, the term powerful can be broadly applied to many, many people. I'd say the average Nightsister is less impressive than a Jedi Knight too, considering their performance against Grievous.
Dathomir witches are powerful in the context of comparison to normal beings of the mythos. Similarly, some other powerful factions also exist in the galaxy excluding Jedi and Sith factions.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Of course they need to be based on evidence. But you also need to apply logic to come to sensible judgements and statements. Which you rarely do these days.
Originally posted by Nephthys
He eventually recognised Nox's greatness because Nox eventually became worthy of his respect. Nox didn't start out as incredibly powerful, she had barely been a Sith for a few days or weeks by the time she fought Khem.Stop accusing me of making stuff up. You haven't played the story so you have no clue whether my descriptions are inaccurate or false.
Darth Nox encountered Khem Val 'during' his trials. By the time of his graduation, he was a powerful Force-user.
Originally posted by Nephthys
"Fine, fine little one. In my great weakness you have defeated me."Do I need to explain the meaning of the word weakness to you as well?
Yet:
"Your final trial will be to retrieve an ancient map from the innermost chamber of Naga Sadow's tomb—which has never been breached in thousands of years." (Overseer Harkun)
This means that acolytes had been sent on this mission before but they never came back, meaning that Khem Val eliminated them.
Trying to cheapen Darth Nox's power during his natural days? Not going to work.
Originally posted by Nephthys
There are millions of Sith in the order. They've all completed the trials. Try again.
All collectively represent millions. Understood?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yawn. I know all of this Legend. You're boring me with this irrelevant stuff.
Point is that Darth Nox faced greater difficulty in completing the trials then norm because instructors were biased against him because of his background. Yet, against all odds, Darth Nox proved his mettle, better then norm.
Here is another:
Harkun's vitriolic campaign against alien infestation of the Sith ranks has earned him respect and fear among the acolytes. Among the Sith Lords, he has a reputation for producing some of the Empire's most capable Sith. When Lord Zash personally demanded that Harkun present her with a suitable apprentice, he personally groomed a pureblood named Ffon for the role. Harkun watched in horror when a powerful slave acolyte surpassed Ffon to become Lord Zash's apprentice. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
By virtue of these revelations, Darth Nox was already extraordinary during Act 1.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Ahahaha, you see this is what comes of not playing the game and only reading the sourcebook. Nox never fought Ffon (the top student of her batch). When the encyclopedia says she overwhelms him it's being metaphorical. Zash kills Ffon at the end of the Korriban questline for trying to lie to her.And Khem was weakened as I proved above AND no Nox didn't defeat anyone of note during the trial other than Khem.
Bottom part have been covered above.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Your ridiculous definition of it suggests you can't even accomplish that however. Stop trying to move the goalpost by deciding for yourself who you'll recognize as powerful or not. It's so lame.
Originally posted by Nephthys
What terrible lowballing from you. Fisto performed that push in the middle of a duel without much time to concentrate, Obi-Wan was in a saberlock and was able to visibly put effort and concentration into the push. Fisto is a powerful Jedi by the definition of powerful, as is Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan only lacks in telekinetic prowess compared to the other greats of his era. His feats are still great in that area compared to your average Jedi Master or Sith Lord.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The quote was talking about Tiin's overall Force abilities, not a specific technique he possessed. He's a very powerful Jedi in official material.
Originally posted by Nephthys
That Windu lost a sparring match still suggests parity between the two. You don't lose in a practise duel if you're significantly better than your opponent.
In a serious contest, Mace Windu subdued Darth Sidious who is vastly superior opponent then Count Dooku.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Compared to Count Dooku they are, yes.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah, I'm kicking your candy ass up and down these forums boyoo.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Bro, time factor is hard to determine in the game. The events ranging from Act 1 to Act 3 represent span of 3 years. It doesn't takes us (players) 3 years to complete a story or does it?Darth Nox encountered Khem Val 'during' his trials. By the time of his graduation, he was a powerful Force-user.
Legend, please try to be more concise in the future. A single reply of mine provoked you to FOUR massive rants. If you continue to post such lengthy replies to every single sentence of mine this will become too time consuming to continue.
Just, please stop writing so ****ing much. It's so annoying when your reply is so long that I need to scroll up to read it as I'm replying.
I can't believe that a single reply of mine in the last post is now taking up a full post. I'm out. This is my last word on the matter.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Jedi Masters are theoretically supposed to be better then Jedi Knights but this isn't the case necessarily. Some Jedi became greatest warriors of the Jedi Order while being Jedi Knights. Revan and Hero of Tython are shining examples.Power and combat prowess are often considered for evaluation but accomplishments representing Jedi ideals or services for the Jedi Order matter more for progression and ascension to Jedi High Council.
Consider the title of Barsen'thor, it have been awarded to only 3 Jedi in history. It have been awarded for extraordinary achievements and sacrifices, however, was every Barsen'thor a super-strong Force-user? No.
In addition, competence level of Jedi Order have fluctuated in different eras. Jedi Order used to be at its finest or top shape during Old Republic era but it wasn't as strong during NJO and Legacy eras.
While the Jedi Order never regained the size or strength it had during the Old Republic era, it became an influential force during the years of the New Republic and the Galactic Alliance, with the Skywalker line providing much needed leadership. (Star Wars: Legacy Era Campaign Guide)
I believe that the Jedi Order reached its peak in the matters of strength and competency during SWTOR era in the aftermath of Dark Wars because valuable lessons were learned from those events.
But those Jedi Knights are not the norm, they are exceptional beings. We are talking about the ranks of Knight and Master as a whole. Speaking in broad terms, Jedi Masters are the greatest the Jedi Order has to offer. The only way to be greater is to achieve a special rank like Barsen'thor, be the Grandmaster or to serve on the Council. And for the last two you're still a Master when you get to that point anyway.
Nah, mastery of the Force is an important factor too.
The title of Barsen'thor was awarded to exceptional Jedi who were performed feat that preserved the Order against a threat. Barsen'thor means "Warden of the Order" after all.
It's illogical to think that the greatest of the Order in any era sucks in comparison to other era's. The NJO had some extremely powerful Jedi Masters. I don't see them as being inferior to that of the PT or TOR era's. Saba, Horn, Durron, Jaina etc are all exemplary Jedi. Legacy is a possible simply because the Jedi Order had been decimated in that time.
Size of the Order and overall strength doesn't mean anything to do with the top masters.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I disagree, Cin Drallig isn't a powerful Jedi holistically. He is noted for his great skills with a lightsaber and he was chosen for Battlemaster role due to this reason during PT era after demise of Anoon Bondara but does he represents the benchmark for competency of Battlemasters of the Order in history? No.Kao Cen Darach is much better then Cin Drallig, this disparity is era specific due to greater demand for competency and preparedness of the Order during SWTOR era then during PT era when Sith were thought to be extinct and peace prevailed.
snip
Drallig is only weak compared to a juggernaut like Anakin. He's still a decently powerful Jedi Master of high repute. I agree that he's no Drallig, but he's no Johun either.
The Order grew out of touch with the Republic, not the Force. Your quote doesn't mean anything about this topic.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your assessment is misplaced. Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire was designed to produce highest quality Sith possible much like during Rule of Two era but without restriction on numbers due to a necessity to make the Empire strong and competent enough to conquer the galaxy and destroy the Jedi Order, information already provided to you in this regard in a different thread.Republic and the Jedi Order gained upper-hand over the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire because the Empire internally fractured due to rivalries between several super-strong Sith for supremacy and betrayals of extreme magnitude such as Emperor's Wrath going out of his way to join the Jedi and help them upsurp the Emperor.
Heroes of light and darkness form an unlikely alliance to bring down the monstrous Sith Emperor and stop his horrific plans for the galaxy. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
On the contrary Republic and Jedi remained united and resilient in their cause and exploited internal rivalries in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire to gain advantage and eventually destroyed it in the long run.
That doesn't mean that a rank and file Darth like Skotia would be equal to one of the RoT Sith. They're chosen amongst the best of the galaxy, aka Dark Council level, not Darth level. Dooku isn't going to be equaled by some random mid-boss from the prologue. To think that the Reconstituted Empire has thousands of Dooku level beings is utterly retarded. Yoda claimed that Dooku was the best student he had ever had. In hundreds of years. Dooku is confirmed in multiple sources to be one of the mightiest beings to ever live. The best of the Order will far exceed a nobody like Skotia, like Ven Zallow and Aryn Leneer or yes, Obi-Wan and Anakin. I say it again, it is ONLY the RoT Sith who have 100% quality Sith, becuase their numbers are so small and elite.
So what? A TOR era Jedi Master is still every bit the equal of a Sith Lord. They're not winning just through the Sith's infighting or Scourge's betrayal which lmao, barely effected anything in terms of the military situation.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, but norm eclipses elites in quantity in any era. It is only during SWTOR era, that we notice significant influx in quality factor then norm in history because the ground realities of this era demanded such level of competency on both sides. However, elites of this era are still few in number, some individuals who are not among the elites of this era, might be among the elites in a different era, basically fluctuation in standards.Powerful Force-users are mostly officially identified as such and can be determined in few cases on the basis of feats performed but they are not norm, this is why they are powerful by mythos standards or by faction standards, because they are above norm. Look at these examples.
Charismatic, powerful, and a respected Jedi, Revan would soon rally the Republic against a new enemy. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
Scheming, powerful, and evil to the core, Darth Sidious restored the Sith and destroyed the Jedi Order. (Star Wars: Databank)
Why is there a need to explicitly pinpoint that these are powerful Force-users? If many powerful Force-users exist in an era by virtue of being Masters, then these statements loose their value. However, context is important to consider. Authors are pointing out that these Force-users are powerful by mythos standards or as per their faction standards, essentially among the elites, among the greatest.
If you think that only Force-users, powerful by mythos standards, are impressive in the ways of the Force, you are mistaken; powerful Force-users represent the APEX, however, norm is not pushover either. Plenty of Jedi and Sith perform impressive actions but they are not necessarily at the APEX of their factions. Look no further then stories of Zayne Carrick and Lord Scrabrous, these two aren't powerhouses by Jedi and Sith standards respectively but nonetheless capable warriors and decent in the ways of the Force.
It's difficult for me to even work up the energy to reply to this rambling crock of shit.
God, do you ever pass up the opportunity to wank the TOR era? The TOR era isn't intrinsically better than any other era and there's no indication that the beings living in it had a higher concentration of beings with large amounts of midichlorians. Skotia isn't as good as Count freaking Dooku just because there was loads of bloody competition in his era, it takes much, much, much more than that.
Wrong. In fact, SWTORE indicates that ALL Sith are termed as powerful in the Sith Warrior section. Many, many are identified as powerful or qualify as such without needing to be directly labelled as it. And plus, as I said, being called powerful basically means jack shit since it's such a subjective and variable term. Any loser can be powerful. I'M powerful, that's how worthless the term is. HOW powerful is something you need to establish. Merely being called powerful means nothing.
Those quotes do lose their value. I wouldn't put them in any Respect thread because they're so uninformative. They're powerful, well no ****ing shit. You DON'T need to call them powerful, it's just a stock description that you'd expect to be in that kind of source. And not being called powerful in those kinds of sources don't mean you aren't powerful either.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Bro, you need to provide evidence for these claims. If the likes of Ventress are "very powerful," then standards of Sith are not high in PT era.Maul have never been stated to be one of the most powerful Sith in history, this is fanon assumption.
Since when do you get to decide on how high standards are? It's more that your ass-backwards definition of what it is to be powerful is utterly wrong. Sidious calls Ventress an impressive duelist in her first appearance in the original Clone Wars cartoon and calls her very powerful in the episode "Nightsisters" of the CGI Clone Wars cartoon. I believe he mentions that she's a skilled fighter in other sources too.
"One of the most skilled and deadly warriors in Sith history, Darth Sidious' apprentice took part in the first encounter between Jedi Knight and Sith warrior for more than 1,000 years in the Battle for Naboo.
As a Sith devotee, Darth Maul drew his power from the dark side of the Force. He was one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order." - The Official Star Wars Fact File #1
"Darth Maul is Darth Sidious's apprentice and one of the most dangerous and highly trained Sith in the history of the Order." - Star Wars: Character Encyclopedia
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Once again, context is important to consider. The word "powerful" is used sometimes in broad or general context to make a point or elaborate some difference.Dathomir witches are powerful in the context of comparison to normal beings of the mythos. Similarly, some other powerful factions also exist in the galaxy excluding Jedi and Sith factions.
This is such bullshit. What makes you claim that it's only in comparison to normal beings in the mythos? Since when do you get to decide what the quotes are comparing people to? It calls them powerful in the exact same way Nox was called a powerful apprentice and the Sith were called the most powerful beings in the Empire. Just accept that your definition of powerful is awful.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My points are mostly logical and evidence-based. Now what can I do about your core beliefs? I can have a debate with you and there are only two possible outcomes; you would either agree of disagree. Though real test is your logic.
No they aren't. They're based on your illogical interpretations of the evidence. You see a quote calling someone powerful and in your mind that makes them Jedi Council level, which is a ridiculous conclusion to make and a massive leap in logic. Yeah, it's based on evidence and logic but your reasoning is so flawed that it leads you to incorrect conclusions that aren't actually supported by either logic or evidence.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Bro, time factor is hard to determine in the game. The events ranging from Act 1 to Act 3 represent span of 3 years. It doesn't takes us (players) 3 years to complete a story or does it?Darth Nox encountered Khem Val 'during' his trials. By the time of his graduation, he was a powerful Force-user.
And if each Act is a year then since Khem is fought on the first planet at most it had only been 2 months.
I don't give a shit. Being a powerful Force user doesn't mean near as much as yo think it does.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is a claim of a defeated individual, he may have said that for egoistic reasons. If this claim is taken at face value, then maybe Khem Val was weak during this time but neutral confirmation is non-existent.Yet:
"Your final trial will be to retrieve an ancient map from the innermost chamber of Naga Sadow's tomb—which has never been breached in thousands of years." (Overseer Harkun)
This means that acolytes had been sent on this mission before but they never came back, meaning that Khem Val eliminated them.
Trying to cheapen Darth Nox's power during his natural days? Not going to work.
Obvious speculation and handwaving. You've got nothing to indicate that Khem was lying about being weakened. During other conversations he also mentions recovering his strength. He was weakened.
Lmao. The tomb hadn't been breached because you need to perform a ritual to get in, not because Khem killed them. And no-one had ever had access to the artifacts needed for the ritual until Nox. Again, you're messing things up because you've never played the story. Hell, Khem was in stasis when Nox found him. He hadn't been killing anyone.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
- [B]Sith Acolytes
- Sith Apprentices
- Sith LordsAll collectively represent millions. Understood?[/b]
Millions of the galaxies most powerful Sith were considered for Scourge's replacement and millions of Sith vie for the Dark Council seats. There are millions of full Sith who have competed the trials in the Order.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Irrelevant? This is the problem, Nephthys. When relevant points are presented to you, you outright dismiss their validity.Point is that Darth Nox faced greater difficulty in completing the trials then norm because instructors were biased against him because of his background. Yet, against all odds, Darth Nox proved his mettle, better then norm.
Here is another:
Harkun's vitriolic campaign against alien infestation of the Sith ranks has earned him respect and fear among the acolytes. Among the Sith Lords, he has a reputation for producing some of the Empire's most capable Sith. When Lord Zash personally demanded that Harkun present her with a suitable apprentice, he personally groomed a pureblood named Ffon for the role. Harkun watched in horror when a powerful slave acolyte surpassed Ffon to become Lord Zash's apprentice. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
By virtue of these revelations, Darth Nox was already extraordinary during Act 1.
It's irrelevant because Nox was still a mere apprentice. It's not as if Nox was anywhere near a real Sith Lord or Jedi Master at this point. All your quotes only indicate that she's a "powerful slave acolyte" or a "powerful new apprentice". In context, Nox is powerful compared to other acolytes and apprentices, not compared to other Sith Lords of notable power. You think she's anywhere near someone who is actually powerful like Ventress or Maul at this point? Even at the end of Act 1 Nox isn't powerful enough to break apart rock with her TK, she is not as great as you think.
Nox is better than a normal Sith, and has great potential power. But that's all.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Don't post bullshit, Nephthys. You need to learn to focus on CONTEXT of the stuff you read.
Pretty funny coming from the only one of us without proper context. I have context, you don't.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
More excuses from you, Kao Cen Darach also performed Force push on Lord Vindican on split-second moment and the force of the impact was powerful enough to send Lord Vindican packing across the hall. This is what a legitimately powerful Force-user is capable of doing.
Darach also put alot of effort into his push, while Fisto was very casual. He was clearly just taunting Grievous, which is why he simply stood still and let him stand back up after pushing him. So that's not a good example.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is open to interpretation. Tinn did had a special talent that he used for navigation purposes during hyperspace routes.
Pfft, and how is that among the most power of Force powers? It isn't.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Don't be naïve, practice duels prove nothing since intent is to learn and not to kill each other.In a serious contest, Mace Windu subdued Darth Sidious who is vastly superior opponent then Count Dooku.
You're the naive one if you think that a weaker combatant could beat a superior one in a practise duel.
Windu was amped when he beat Sidious. He's not naturally any greater than Dooku is. Windu also had trouble with the likes of Sora Bulq and Kar Vastor. He's no Sidious.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Subjective claim that makes no sense. And then you claim to use logic.
It's based upon facts. Dooku is one of the greatest Force adepts to ever live, the best student Yoda ever trained, one of the most powerful Jedi of all time and even greater as a Sith Lord and Darth Sidious' apprentice. He is far above the likes of Skotia and Zash.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In your dreams, buddy.
I hope not. Debating you is a nightmare.
SW Legend
Yeah right.[FANTASY]I forgot that Cin Dralling is a match for a Dark Council member and is also more battle-hardened and proven then even the longest lasting members of the Dark Council.[/FANTASY]
Don't be ridiculous.
Vowrawn is renowned for his manipulation, intelligence, and charisma, and his skill in battle is barely mentioned. He himself doesn't seem to rate himself as a particularly powerful fighter, and used sith loyal to him to defend himself from assassination.
Cin Drallig is a Jedi Battlemaster known for his talent and great knowledge of lightsaber techniques and training countless duelists. Even cited by Count Dooku as a dangerous warrior.
So yes, Vowrawn is a legendary long-lasting Dark Council member, but very much not for his combat skills, even in his own opinion. He survived due to his head for strategy.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Here's an unlikely one: Sith Triumvirate.
They've been the most successful in wiping out Jedi but they suck at every other category. Their armies are pitiful. Their "apprentices" are awful. Their conquests are nonexistent.
None of the three Sith were able to revel in their "era" either. Where the Dark Council gets to enjoy lavish estates with hundreds of slaves or where Sidious was balling for decades in the upper echelon of Coruscant.
Kreia got betrayed and lived the rest of her life pissed off. Sion is in eternal pain waiting to die. And Nihilius has an insatiable hunger that is plaguing him. Pretty shitty golden age.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Here's an unlikely one: Sith Triumvirate.
Yea, only around for a few short years, infighting among the leadership, only really 3 Sith of power... two of them more for unique abilities than general skill.
Originally posted by Based
Their "apprentices" are awful.
Speak of which, do we even have named ones outside the three?