Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Kao Cen Darach simultaneously handled Darth Malgus (one of the greatest warriors of the Empire at this point) and Lord Vindican simultaneously with his speed, ferocity and powers for a while. I really doubt that Darth Talon is this much capable.
She doesn't need to be. She's only fighting one of those guys here.
Originally posted by Q99
Not really, that was all from a single solid piece of rock- hard rock, they don't make temple floors from sandstone- and the result is taller than her and wider than it is tall.
Meanwhile:
Jedi Temple floor is still tough surface to crack and destroy.
Originally posted by Q99
There's many many darths in the TOR Empire she'd slaughter.
Do you have a grasp of the quality of Sith in reconstituted ancient Sith Empire? No
Originally posted by Q99
Talon, though devoted training, just got handed one of the higher slots in the Empire. She's young, much younger than her rival, and Darth Krayt promises to teach her more. There's roughly a year, year and a half between the start of Legacy and the end.
And this is the mindset:
"We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours."
Darth Talon is such a great Sith, oh wait.
In the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire, even the Emperor himself could be challenged for supremacy under Kaggath rules of the Empire, it is another story that no one ever succeeded but can any one fault them for failing against such a powerful adversary? And weak Sith were not even allowed to declare Kaggath.
Only a Sith who is recognized by the Dark Council as possessing sufficient power and authority may declare a Kaggath. Their chosen opponents may be anyone from the upstart young Lords to the Emperor himself. (TOR Encyclopedia)
Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire was designed to produce mighty Sith, it was designed to fuel severe competition among the Sith for supremacy and Emperor himself could be challenged.
Wyyrlok III is someone whom I actually respect in the Legacy era, he actually challenged Darth Krayt for supremacy like true Sith Lord would.
Originally posted by Q99
Or in other words, she's been consistently rewarded for her approach so far and as for any future ambitions, can you think of a better way than learning from Krayt? There's still Sith stronger than her but below Krayt, and passing them- or most specifically, Nihl- would be the next logical step for any sith. Striking out and taking over is something even a Rule of Two sith will often only consider when they're strong enough, after gaining as much strength as they can from their boss.I don't view her as much different than Maul in mindset- remember he only started thinking independent in TCW. And it's a pretty rare sith who'd try and topple their boss *that* soon after getting a top spot, especially when they have much to learn!
Originally posted by Q99
Heck, don't forget the TOR position of Emperor's Wrath. Gaining power by chosing to directly serve is no odd thing for a sith.
Here: "We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours."
In-fact, Emperor's Wrath I had ambition to become Emperor himself.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'm sorry... is that seriously a point in your argument important enough for you to give it its own post?Talon loses, cause she dresses like a $lut?
Darth Talon is highly vulnerable to suffering injuries in a bikini then she would be in an armored dressing.
Armored dressing is not just about protection, some armored outfits are designed to enhance combat prowess and even to intimidate potential rivals on top of offering protection.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dressing sense represents ideals of a Sith individual. It isn't done at random.Darth Talon is highly vulnerable to suffering injuries in a bikini then she would be in an armored dressing.
Armored dressing is not just about protection, some battle suist are designed to enhance combat prowess ands some even to intimidate potential rivals.
I personally believe that the One Sith fell short in terms of quality in comparison with say the Banite Sith, or even Vitiate's Empire, but suggesting that Talon is inferior to every Darth in Vitiate's Empire is just horrendous.
I also believe that from a philosophical standpoint, Talon represents everything a Sith should not be, but that's no reason to lowball her to that extent when she actually has some impressive feats.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
So Talon is weaker than any Darth in Vitiate's empire because of the way she dresses.
Dressing sense is important to Sith from various aspects; enhancing combat prowess; having shock value; and increasing personal safety. Dressing sense does have an impact on a Sith's performance.
Also, dressing sense is just one point. Darth Talon isn't a mighty Sith Lord from other aspects either.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I personally believe that the One Sith fell short in terms of quality in comparison with say the Banite Sith, or even Vitiate's Empire, but suggesting that Talon is inferior to every Darth in Vitiate's Empire is just horrendous.I also believe that from a philosophical standpoint, Talon represents everything a Sith should not be, but that's no reason to lowball her to that extent when she actually has some impressive feats.
Darths of reconstituted ancient Sith Empire are elites of the Order/Empire, they represent the APEX of the Empire's power spectrum. This Empire was designed to churn out highest quality Sith possible and standards for becoming a Darth in it were ridiculously high accordingly.
Just because Darth Talon was crowned as a Darth and thrived during the era of Darth Krayt, doesn't implies that she will receive same level of respect in every era, specially in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire. Sith like her would be chewed up in this Empire.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
And I suppose Darth Vowrawn was just a phenomenal powerhouse of supreme power wasn't he?
Also, he more then made-up for his supposed inadequacy in strength with his incredible cunning and survival skills.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Meanwhile:
That's a sith crouching down? Yea, that's a little damage, but damaging floor like that still is just a fraction what Talon did. That's not nearly as much raw stuff moved.
In your dreams? YesDo you have a grasp of the quality of Sith in reconstituted ancient Sith Empire? No
Do you?
You seem to equate 'the quality of the sith of the reconstituted empire' with 'the top dozen people in said empire,' and not, like, the actual wide majority of them. Dark Council members are not average guides to quality of the sith in the empire, to state the obvious!
Talon's well well above, say Exal Kressh and Darth Vowrawn, to name some notable names who are stands-outs but aren't even a serious debate vs Talon.
Not to mention all the Lords that various player characters take down in the games... Lord Savik died to the Voidhound, and she's not the only lord to fall to non-force-sensitives.
The Empire that she served isn't designed to churn out mighty Sith, it is built to favor Darth Krayt's agenda and minimize potential challenges to him. For this purpose, Darth Krayt threw bones to his followers to make them happy and keep them distracted.
You're thinking of Sidious, who restricted the strength of his servants so none could challenge him.
Krayt wanted them as a weapon against the galaxy and fight against the Jedi, and gain enough force knowledge to help him, especially if it involved curing his implants. He had Talon trained so she could rip secrets from her foes. Wyyrlok was tasked to study and gain as many ancient sources of knowledge as much as he could, and Maladi similar to improve her abilities (though she apparently horded a bit).
Heck, Vul Isen wasn't even a Darth and yet he was given access to the study of Sith Alchemy and was able to not just re-create but modify sith leviathans!
You can't just make up stuff about an order because you don't like them.
In the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire, even the Emperor himself could be challenged for supremacy under Kaggath rules of the Empire, it is another story that no one ever succeeded but can any one fault them for failing against such a powerful adversary? And weak Sith were not even allowed to declare Kaggath.
And, mind you, even Sith like Thanaton never *considered* it.
Krayt could be challenged, even if there was no formal mechanism. Vitiate could be challenged, but the sith we know as 'great' within the Empire were too cowed by him to do so. How is that different in practicality?
Darth Talon may not be as bad as often claimed to be but she is far from an ideal Sith Lord, she lacked in ambition and did not attempt to gain greater power by delving in to ancient teachings of the Sith.
One, she's young, she *just* graduated to her rank, that's like complaining that someone who just graduated absolute first in her college hasn't done much self-research- well, duh, she hasn't had opportunity to yet, she just completed her prior studies. Two, she's... specifically shown showing Cade ancient teachings of the sith, and she does use fairly advanced abilities in the mind-ripping in her fairly first outing. Three, Krayt often sends his people after more Sith knowledge, and four, he offers her and Nihl more power and knowledge still after his rebirth.
Do you seriously believe that Darth Krayt would allow her to challenge him? The rest is covered above.
He allowed Wyyrlok to grow as strong as he did, why wouldn't he?
In-fact, Emperor's Wrath I had ambition to become Emperor himself.
An ambition he did not act on for centuries when Revan was no longer present to do it for him. At what point is an 'ambition' merely an excuse one makes for oneself?
He wasn't as much lacking in strength as some of you might believe, he survived and held his own in many battles.Also, he more then made-up for his supposed inadequacy in strength with his incredible cunning and survival skills.
But he's still an example of the strength of a Dark Lord of the Empire, and a dark councilor no less. Like you say, he held his own in many battles with even his relatively low strength. He's going to be stronger than a random sith warrior of the type used in the sack of Coruscant most likely.
He's weak, much weaker than Talon, yet he's most likely still not that far from the strength of a *normal* darth, it's just his cunning lets him pal around with the major powerhouses who hang with the council.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah guys, dressing sensibly is mad appropriate and the TOR Sith had it down pat.
Originally posted by Q99
That's a sith crouching down? Yea, that's a little damage, but damaging floor like that still is just a fraction what Talon did. That's not nearly as much raw stuff moved.
Originally posted by Q99
Link
It doesn't indicates much, they are fighting in a rocky region and the intensity of damage inflicted is hard to determine.
I am sure that Darth Talon cannot just bore through surface of Jedi Temple with a single power-oriented jump, if this is your intended point.
Originally posted by Q99
Do you?You seem to equate 'the quality of the sith of the reconstituted empire' with 'the top dozen people in said empire,' and not, like, the actual wide majority of them. Dark Council members are not average guides to quality of the sith in the empire, to state the obvious!
You really need to buy this book to understand why I rate the reconstituted ancient Sith so highly: http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-The-Republic-Encyclopedia/dp/0756698391
It explains every aspect of rise of a Sith to prominence within the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire from the training procedures to ascension to greatness in the Dark Council. This Empire is designed to ensure survival of the fittest in the higher echelons of power and breed quality. It is not designed to serve agenda of one person and minimize competition.
Originally posted by Q99
Talon's well well above, say Exal Kressh and Darth Vowrawn, to name some notable names who are stands-outs but aren't even a serious debate vs Talon.
Check this thread and enlighten yourself: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=707012
And I really doubt that Darth Talon matches survival skills and smartness of Darth Vowrawn, he is also not lacking in strength aspect as much as you assume him to be, it is just that quality of Sith is very high in his era. Darth Talon does not seems to be Dark Council material by any stretch of imagination in the first place, forget comparing her to Darth Vowrawn.
Also, you are seriously mistaken if you assume that quality Sith existed only in the Dark Council. There were plenty formidable Sith outside Dark Council in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire, some simply refused to join the Dark Council or get involved in backstabbing politics.
Originally posted by Q99
Not to mention all the Lords that various player characters take down in the games... Lord Savik died to the Voidhound, and she's not the only lord to fall to non-force-sensitives.
Playable characters are monstrous in their capabilities, they are the best of the best in the galaxy within their respective classes.
Bounty Hunter defeated a Jedi Master of great power and skill as an example, Jun Seros. This Jedi Master was among the strongest of his time and quality of Jedi is higher in this era then it ever had been before.
I am confident that this Bounty Hunter would slaughter Darth Talon too. Now before you come up with proposition that this is impossible, let me remind you that Jun Seros is a confirmed master swordsman, battlemaster of the Order and is also exceptionally good in the ways of the Force. He stopped a missile strike from hitting him mid-fight and destroyed it with his extreme speed and power in the Force. He also demonstrated the capability to prevent firepower of a flamethrower to burn him and other impressive feats.
I advice you to stop underestimating TOR era greats and improve your knowledge.
Originally posted by Q99
You're thinking of Sidious, who restricted the strength of his servants so none could challenge him.Krayt wanted them as a weapon against the galaxy and fight against the Jedi, and gain enough force knowledge to help him, especially if it involved curing his implants. He had Talon trained so she could rip secrets from her foes. Wyyrlok was tasked to study and gain as many ancient sources of knowledge as much as he could, and Maladi similar to improve her abilities (though she apparently horded a bit).
Heck, Vul Isen wasn't even a Darth and yet he was given access to the study of Sith Alchemy and was able to not just re-create but modify sith leviathans!
You can't just make up stuff about an order because you don't like them.
1, How many Sith existed in One Sith Order?
2. What were the ground realities of training procedures of Sith during this era?
3. Who are the strongest and most notable Lords excluding Darth Krayt himself?
4. Was there a Dark Council?
5. Was there incredible competition among the Sith for ascension to supremacy?
6. Did Darth Krayt permitted anybody to challenge him for supremacy under Kaggath rules?
7. Is One Sith Order designed to ensure survival of the fittest and ascension of strongest to greatness?
So many philosophical aspects.
What I have noticed is that only Wyyrlok III realized fallibility of One Sith Order based philosophy and challenged Darth Krayt for supremacy like a genuine Sih Lord would.
Why do you think I respect Darth Krayt and Wyyrlok III? Because these two are quality Sith.
I am not era biased, contrary to belief running here. It is just that people are no much aware of ground realities of reconstituted ancient Sith Empire and make sweeping generalizations about TOR era content, some do this based on their own biases, some do this out of ignorance and some do this for both reasons.
Originally posted by Q99
And, mind you, even Sith like Thanaton never *considered* it.
Originally posted by Q99
Krayt could be challenged, even if there was no formal mechanism. Vitiate could be challenged, but the sith we know as 'great' within the Empire were too cowed by him to do so. How is that different in practicality?
Darth Krayt created a different kind of Order with different kind of intentions, I have covered this part above.
Originally posted by Q99
One, she's young, she *just* graduated to her rank, that's like complaining that someone who just graduated absolute first in her college hasn't done much self-research- well, duh, she hasn't had opportunity to yet, she just completed her prior studies. Two, she's... specifically shown showing Cade ancient teachings of the sith, and she does use fairly advanced abilities in the mind-ripping in her fairly first outing. Three, Krayt often sends his people after more Sith knowledge, and four, he offers her and Nihl more power and knowledge still after his rebirth.
She wasn't planning to challenge Darth Krayt for supremacy or something. She even stated this:
"We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours."
Seriously, Q99, stop trying to make up stuff project every Sith of legacy era as a legend or something. You are not doing your own era of liking any favor by arguing in favor of Darth Talon. Focus on the flaws in the One Sith Order and then get back to me.
Darth Krayt would offer her limited training, he didn't wanted anybody to challenge him for supremacy.
Originally posted by Q99
He allowed Wyyrlok to grow as strong as he did, why wouldn't he?
Originally posted by Q99
An ambition he did not act on for centuries when Revan was no longer present to do it for him. At what point is an 'ambition' merely an excuse one makes for oneself?
Challenging Emperor Vitiate means absolute death. Even though Emperor Vitiate had permitted challenge to his rule at official capacity, only the most daring would ever do so.
Emperor's Wrath I was very smart and patient and waited for the right opportunity to set his plans in motion to upsurp Emperor Vitiate. This plan was put to motion when he met Hero of Tython.
Originally posted by Q99
But he's still an example of the strength of a Dark Lord of the Empire, and a dark councilor no less. Like you say, he held his own in many battles with even his relatively low strength. He's going to be stronger than a random sith warrior of the type used in the sack of Coruscant most likely.He's weak, much weaker than Talon, yet he's most likely still not that far from the strength of a *normal* darth, it's just his cunning lets him pal around with the major powerhouses who hang with the council.
You don't get to survive in many battles by being weak, Q99. Darth Vowrawn is much more battle-hardened and proven then Darth Talon contrary to how you may perceive him to be. A weak Sith Lord cannot last long in Dark Council, he will be eventually taken down at some point. However, Darth Vowrawn more then proved his worth to be counted among the greatest of the Lords.
Cunning is an important aspect for any Sith Lord, muscle does not works in every situation.
This is all making me roll my eyes out of the back of my head.
Anyone else find it annoying how despite making outrageous statements and holding ridiculous beliefs, Legend always feels the need to lecture his opponent and talk down to them?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Is this the image on left most side?It doesn't indicates much, they are fighting in a rocky region and the intensity of damage inflicted is hard to determine.
I am sure that Darth Talon cannot just bore through surface of Jedi Temple with a single power-oriented jump, if this is your intended point.
What? No, they're not fighting in a rocky region, they're fighting inside a temple. It became rocky because Talon obliterated the floor with TK. It's an extremely impressive feat of raw TK strength and well above what Adraas did.
Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]This is all making me roll my eyes out of the back of my head.Anyone else find it annoying how despite making outrageous statements and holding ridiculous beliefs, Legend always feels the need to lecture his opponent and talk down to them?
Would it be a little upfront to say yes, very much so? >_>
Eh, **** it. Yes, so much yes, I don't think I could mean the true meaning of the word Yes anymore if I tried.
Also... bro: Revan, Surik, Jace Malcom vs Corran Horn, Saba Sebatyne and Chewbacca.
I need your help, I made a thread and I expect you to help 😛
Originally posted by Nephthys
This is all making me roll my eyes out of the back of my head.Anyone else find it annoying how despite making outrageous statements and holding ridiculous beliefs, Legend always feels the need to lecture his opponent and talk down to them?
What are the outrageous statements and ridiculous beliefs by he way?
Originally posted by Nephthys
What? No, they're not fighting in a rocky region, they're fighting inside a temple. It became rocky because Talon obliterated the floor with TK. It's an extremely impressive feat of raw TK strength and well above what Adraas did.
It is a feat of raw power, not TK. Also, feats such as these do not indicate much in the context of combat ability and chances against other powerful Force-users. Cade Skywalker continued to fight unhindered. Its not like as if Darth Talon collapsed a building or something, this kind of development could have threatened survival of Cade Skywalker but destruction of part of floor? not so much.
It is apparent from the SWTOR Return Official Trailer that it takes Kao Cen Darach or an individual with superior combat ability to outgun Lord Vindican. Darth Talon is not this much capable. Don't be butt-hurt about this. In no way or form, this is an indication that Darth Talon is weak and her feats are not impressive. It is just that arguments presented in her favor are not good enough, destroying a portion of floor will be enough to stop Lord Vindican? Unlikely.
The aforementioned reasoning is valid for Lord Adraas as well; he destroyed a portion of floor in the Jedi Temple with a power-oriented jump on it, killing many Republic troops in the process with this move. However, is this an indication of his superiority or chances against other powerful Force-user in combat situations? Nope. Destroying a portion of floor will not be enough to stop a powerful Force-user, he would logically have much superior defensive abilities then normal soldiers. This feat only verifies that Lord Adraas have impressive raw power, not much else.
