Vindican vs. Darth Talon

Started by Emperordmb8 pages

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I didn't realize that you consider yourself the judge, jury and executioner of the Star Wars subject. If you have anything constructive to share, please do. Otherwise, stop mocking me.

I think we'd all be more comfortable with that request if you stopped talking down to everyone else.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What are the outrageous statements and ridiculous beliefs by he way?

Well let's see... the viewpoint that those among the greatest fighters of any other era would be matched by any Sith in SWTOR who happens to have a name.

Darth Skotia≥Darth Tyranus, and any Darth in SWTOR>Talon both come to mind.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I think we'd all be more comfortable with that request if you stopped talking down to everyone else.

Stopped talking down to everyone else? What do you mean?

I am providing arguments, counter-arguments and having a debate.

Who the hell gave you people the right to mock me for my debating activities and create hurdles in it?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Well let's see... the viewpoint that those among the greatest fighters of any other era would be matched by any Sith in SWTOR who happens to have a name.

Darth Skotia≥Darth Tyranus, and any Darth in SWTOR>Talon both come to mind.


What does Darth Skotia and Count Dooku have anything to do with this thread?

Outrageous claim would be if I'd assert that Lord Vindican can defeat Darth Sidious. Nope.

Darth Skotia's position have been adequately discussed in another thread.

---

Provide a reasonable argument in favor of Darth Talon and this debate may simply end.

Here, let me help you:-

1. Prove that Darth Talon have struck down a master swordsman.
2. Show me a demonstration of lightsaber dueling ability of Darth Talon which seems to be on par with that of Kao Cen Darach.
3. Prove that Darth Talon have dominated a powerful Force-user with her powers.

I am not interested in subjective reasoning, I am interested in valid reasoning.

All I have seen so far is that Darth Talon destroyed a portion of floor and is good with a lightsaber. Is this information sufficient to establish her superiority over Lord Vindican? Nope.

Lord Vindican isn't a mook or will fall to a lesser foe. Kao Cen Darach took him out and he is evidently much more impressive then Darth Talon.

---

Let us consider hypothetical clash between Lord Adraas versus Darth Thanaton.

If I point out that Lord Adraas destroyed a portion of floor, killing Republic troops in the process, he have impressive raw power, would this be sufficient to establish his superiority over Darth Thanaton who is officially confirmed to be a supremely powerful Sith Lord and having insurmountable strength? Nope.

This kind of reasoning is weak and I cannot establish that Lord Adraas is better then Darth Thanaton.

1. She killed Elke Vetter
2. When she took on Wolf Sazen and Shado Vao simultaneously
3. Wolf Sazen and Shado Vao were both dominated by her powers

That's just from the first issue we see her in, naturally.

EDIT: Also, vulnerability and lack of durability? This lady got crushed under a shuttle, and then got up and continued fighting.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
1. She killed Elke Vetter
2. When she took on Wolf Sazen and Shado Vao simultaneously
3. Wolf Sazen and Shado Vao were both dominated by her powers

Ok

1. Is Elke Vetter an officially verified master swordsman?
2. Are Wolf Sazen and Shado Vao a match for Darth Malgus and Lord Vindican?
3. Same as above

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That's just from the first issue we see her in, naturally.

EDIT: Also, vulnerability and lack of durability? This lady got crushed under a shuttle, and then got up and continued fighting.


She didn't get crushed under a Shuttle then. Nonetheless, I would like to see this event.

Vulnerability point is relevant. Tell me, which soldier have better chance at survival in a battle, the one wearing armored clothing or the one wearing a bikini?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
1. She killed Elke Vetter

Elke Vetter being literally the master of the Emperor's daughter.

SW Legend
1. Is Elke Vetter an officially verified master swordsman?
2. Are Wolf Sazen and Shado Vao a match for Darth Malgus and Lord Vindician?

1) Yes.
Imperial Knights, specifically, have small numbers, because they only *get* the rank when they're the equivalent of combat-focused Jedi Masters. They stay in training until they reach that level. You will literally never see a full IK who's not a master, and this one specifically was the master training a very important person in combat.

2 Vindican? Quite probably, yes. Both have a lot of sword feats (Wolf Sazen killed a major sith commander. Shado Vao's stalemated a number of strong foes). Even Malgus at that point, yea, wouldn't surprise me. Malgus of course eventually blows them out of the water, but that's not til later.

SW Legend
What does Darth Skotia and Count Dooku have anything to do with this thread.

They illustrate a pre-existing bias.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I didn't realize that you consider yourself the judge, jury and executioner of the Star Wars subject. If you have anything constructive to share, please do. Otherwise, stop mocking me.

What are the outrageous statements and ridiculous beliefs by he way?

I don't recall mocking you (recently). Calling your arguments bad is a statement of fact opinion.

Alot of what you're trying to push can be considered those things. Primarily that Skotia is equal to Dooku, a belief so unbelievable I thought you might well just be trolling me.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Present the evidence properly then, who is stopping you?

I don't own scans of the comic, so that's whats stopping me. But they're fighting in the Sith Temple. Do you think the Sith decorate their hallways with giant boulders? No, the floor is smooth. Until Talon ripped up the floor.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is a feat of raw power, not TK.

WTF? She's using TK, so it's a feat of TK. 😬

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, feats such as these do not indicate much in the context of combat ability and chances against other powerful Force-users.

They indicate a characters power with the force and with TK. You're fine with using the Barsen'thor's feat of smashing through that door even though it's not a feat in combat or done against another Force user. This is no different in concept.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Cade Skywalker continued to fight unhindered. Its not like as if Darth Talon collapsed a building or something, this kind of development could have threatened survival of Cade Skywalker but destruction of part of floor? not so much.

That Talon didn't direct her power at Cade is irrelevant in establishing her feat.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is apparent from the SWTOR Return Official Trailer that it takes Kao Cen Darach or an individual with superior combat ability to outgun Lord Vindican.

Lol. No, you don't need to be Darach to beat Vindican. Many lesser Jedi and Sith could likely defeat him.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Talon is not this much capable. Don't be butt-hurt about this. In no way or form, this is an indication that Darth Talon is weak and her feats are not impressive. It is just that arguments presented in her favor are not good enough, destroying a portion of floor will be enough to stop Lord Vindican? Unlikely.

It's a better feat of TK than anything Vindican has done. 👆

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The aforementioned reasoning is valid for Lord Adraas as well; he destroyed a portion of floor in the Jedi Temple with a power-oriented jump on it, killing many Republic troops in the process with this move. However, is this an indication of his superiority or chances against other powerful Force-user in combat situations? Nope.

Yes. If a force user hasn't demonstrated TK on that level then obviously Adraas' feat gives him an edge.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Destroying a portion of floor will not be enough to stop a powerful Force-user, he would logically have much superior defensive abilities then normal soldiers. This feat only verifies that Lord Adraas have impressive raw power, not much else.

Whats wrong with establishing raw power? Since when does that not play a part in these threads?

Originally posted by Q99
1) Yes.
All that is known about her is that she is an Imperial Knight.
Imperial Knights, specifically, have small numbers, because they only *get* the rank when they're the equivalent of combat-focused Jedi Masters. They stay in training until they reach that level.

I understand that she would be good with a lightsaber by virtue of being an Imperial Knight but this isn't enough to determine her actual prowess.

Do you have official accolades that praise Elke Vetter's dueling prowess?

Originally posted by Q99
2 Vindican? Quite possibly, yea. Both have a lot of sword feats.

Lord Vindican tanked a rocket and could unleash Force powers potent enough to incapacitate even powerful Force-users. He exchanged blows with a master swordsman of such a technical skill which is seldom witnessed/matched in the mythos and tolerated a direct cut-wound on his face from the lightsaber of his opponent during the duel. In-fact, Kao Cen Darach had to use multiple blades to get the opportunity to successfully impale Lord Vindican.

Trust me, Lord Vindican is much better then an average Jedi and Sith.

Originally posted by Q99
They illustrate a pre-existing bias.

And you are bias free?

You mistakenly try to assume that ground realities of Sith in all era are same. You always try to argue in favor of Darth Krayt and Darth Wyyrlok III in various threads, in-fact, you claim that even an ordinary individual of Legacy era is a powerful Force-user by Jedi and Sith standards. Focus on your own biases as well.

How the bloodly hell is this even a debate anymore?!

Your "Reconstituted Sith Empire" doesnt mean Shit. Talon has fought with the best of her time. Cade, Eike, Shado and Wolfen all of whom are vastly superior to Kao Cen Darach and Vindican. Her power TK feat is more impressive then what Vindican has done.

Seriously LeGenD, being a part of Vitiate's Sith Empire doesnt guarantee that character will win, being an inquisitor doesnt guarantee a win, training Malgus doesnt guarantee a win, Its like saying just because Zhar Lestin had a hand in training Revan and was a jedi master he's automatically Revan level. Like really! where's your logic? your common sense? You want us to help you look for it?

Cade, Eike, Shado and Wolfen all of whom are vastly superior to Kao Cen Darach and Vindican.

😆

Her power TK feat is more impressive then what Vindican has done.

👆

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I understand that she would be good with a lightsaber by virtue of being an Imperial Knight but this isn't enough to determine her actual prowess.

Do you have official accolades that praise Elke Vetter's dueling prowess?

'Was hand-selected by the Emperor himself to train his daughter, who she successfully brought up to Imperial Knight level.'


And you are bias free?

Of course not.

But to your level? Certainly not, no question.

I often chime in on threads, and on quite a few threads where there's a character I like and another... I simply don't post because I recognize that I may not be impartial.


You mistakenly try to assume that ground realities of Sith in all era are same.

Nope, I assume that an average force user in an era with access to similar levels of training and force knowledge will be similar.


You always try to argue in favor of Darth Krayt and Darth Wyyrlok III in various threads,

Often, but I've also been involved in plenty of threads where I say they lose, and additionally, as mentioned, I avoid some close threads if I think it may just be my preferences.

Note how additionally, I don't argue them against the most top foes most of the time. Wyyrlok is the second strongest Sith in his time. In my opinion, he'd lose to the second strongest Sith of TOR. He'd also lose to some of the Dark Council, but he'd beat many of them. This is not exactly an extraordinary claim of power here, it's a lot different than putting every named TOR sith above powerful sith of other eras.

in-fact, you claim that even an ordinary individual of Legacy era is a powerful Force-user by Jedi and Sith standards.

Ah ah, it's no good making things up, you should know full well I've never argued that 🙂

A Jedi Knight or Sith warrior from Legacy has no particular advantage over a NJO, CW, or TOR one. They do have an advantage over a late-New Sith Wars one, but that's to be expected.

You may be confusing for when I said an Imperial Knight is powerful by average standards... but that is purely because the aforementioned 'they only give the title to master level fighters,' thing, it's a rank equivalent to Jedi Master/Sith Lord, and Masters/Lords are powerful by average standards as well.

The same could be accomplished by other orders simply by shuffling around titles.

Focus on your own biases as well.

In addition to the above on how I don't have as large ones *and* I specifically avoid fights where I think my reaction would be too based on bias, I will also comment on how someone else's biases do not erase or excuse your own, and your own are very significant. Quite a bit more significant than my own.

If you're aware you have significant biases in an area, maybe you should avoid debates in that area?

Originally posted by Q99
Of course not.

But to your level? Certainly not, no question.


👆 👆 👆

Originally posted by Q99
In addition to the above on how I don't have as large ones *and* I specifically avoid fights where I think my reaction would be too based on bias, I will also comment on how someone else's biases do not erase or excuse your own, and your own are very significant. Quite a bit more significant than my own.

👆 👆 👆

@Q99

I am not as era biased as you assume me to be. I don't let my liking of an era cloud my judgment.

I acknowledge greatness in all eras. I respect and admire Darth Krayt, Darth Wyyrlok III and Cade Skywalker from the Legacy era. These individuals are among the elites of the mythos and have proven credentials. Of-course, only these 3 are not the only ones who are impressive in Legacy times but others are not as impressive as you make them out to be.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
How the bloodly hell is this even a debate anymore?!
You have established nothing so far that makes this a non-debate.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Your "Reconstituted Sith Empire" doesnt mean Shit. Talon has fought with the best of her time.

An Empire which was designed to create highest quality Sith doesn't means shit? Nice reasoning.

This is a baseline indication of quality of Sith existing in an era. Same baseline does not exists for Sith in Legacy era.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Cade, Eike, Shado and Wolfen all of whom are vastly superior to Kao Cen Darach and Vindican.

More importantly, when did Darth Talon ever defeat Cade Skywalker?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Her power TK feat is more impressive then what Vindican has done.

It is not a TK feat, it is a demonstration of raw power. It confirms that Darth Talon can shatter structures and have sufficient raw power to use her telekinetic abilities to manipulate the environment to her advantage in a duel if necessary. However, same can be said for Lord Vindican.

Also Darth Talon's floor-shattering feat is superior to anything Lord Vindican have ever done? Did Darth Talon ever tanked a rocket as if it was nothing? Did Darth Talon unleashed powers potent enough to incapacitate individuals of lets say Darth Malgus's caliber?

Your reasoning is subjective and not conclusive.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Seriously LeGenD, being a part of Vitiate's Sith Empire doesnt guarantee that character will win, being an inquisitor doesnt guarantee a win, training Malgus doesnt guarantee a win, Its like saying just because Zhar Lestin had a hand in training Revan and was a jedi master he's automatically Revan level. Like really! where's your logic? your common sense? You want us to help you look for it?

A Sith did not become a Lord or Darth in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire without proving his mettle first. This Empire was designed to produce powerful Sith Lords, to ensure survival of the Empire.

Sith Inquisitor implies mastery of the Force, this is an important revelation.

Revan had many instructors and he did his own homework as well. Zhar Lestin's situation is not comparable to that of Lord Vindican.

Lord Vindican also have feats that verify his decent combat ability, he is not utterly inconclusive. He have impressive defensive abilities and offensive abilities. He tanked a rocket as if it was nothing and his lightning power incapacitated powerful Darth Malgus for a while. He wasn't a walk in the park for Kao Cen Darach whose combat ability and expertise in lightsaber dueling arts is vastly superior to that of Darth Talon.

Darth Talon also have feats that verify her combat ability to a certain extent but her performances have element of vagueness, she outdueled some individuals who are theoretically good but they aren't powerhouses like Darth Malgus and Lord Vindican. When she was up against a powerhouse such as Cade Skywalker, she couldn't outduel him and got pwned in one of her confrontations. She have limits.

My common sense is working. Is yours?

Written by LeGenD
I understand that he would be good by virtue of being a Sith Inquisitor, but this isn't enough to determine his actual prowess.

Do you have official accolades that praise Lord Vindican's dueling prowess [or Force abilities]?

Can do this all day broski.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

More importantly, when did Darth Talon ever defeat Cade Skywalker?

Listing the opponent's she's fought against you damn fools. Must i be the meat in an imbecile sandwhich?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is not a TK feat, it is a demonstration of raw power. It confirms that Darth Talon can shatter structures and have sufficient raw power to use her telekinetic abilities to manipulate the environment to her advantage in a duel if necessary. However, same can be said for Lord Vindican.

Nothing suggest he can do the same thing even IF it was a show of raw power. Being an inquisitor doesnt automatically grant one vast knowledge of the dark side nor does it immediately make them a match for someone like Talon who is arguably only somewhat lesser than Nihl

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also Darth Talon's floor-shattering feat is superior to anything Lord Vindican have ever done? Did Darth Talon ever tanked a rocket as if it was nothing? Did Darth Talon unleashed powers potent enough to incapacitate individuals of lets say Darth Malgus's caliber?.
.

Meanwhile Satale got back up without a scratch....as a padawan

Your reasoning is subjective and not conclusive.

And yours is based on over exaggerated assumptions and inaccuracies.

A Sith does not become a Lord or Darth in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire without proving his mettle first. This Empire was designed to produce powerful Sith Lords, to ensure survival of the Empire.

And no one within Krayt's forces is a weakling either.

Sith Inquisitor implies mastery of the Force, this is an important revelation.

Arguable but for the sake of keeping my sanity i'll agree with you, if only because of Nox. but Vindican isnt on Nox's level in terms of force mastery.

Revan had many instructors and he did his own homework as well. Zhar Lestin's situation is not comparable to that of Lord Vindican.

You ignore the point - Christ its like Legolas' arrows keep missing your bloody head! The point is, just because one is the master of an exceptionally talented padawan doesnt make one exceptionally talented as well - title holds no meaning. Need i point to Cin Drallig? or even Anoon Bondara who was a Jedi battlemaster and a watchmen.

Lord Vindican also have feats that verify his decent combat ability, he is not utterly inconclusive. He have impressive defensive abilities and offensive abilities. He tanked a rocket as if it was nothing He wasn't a walk in the park for Kao Cen Darach whose combat ability and expertise in lightsaber dueling arts is vastly superior to that of Darth Talon.

Same could be said for Talon especially in the pain threshold department.

Vindican also have feats that verify his combat ability to a certain extent but his performances have element of vagueness, he's outdueled a individual who is theoretically good but he wasnt a powerhouses like Shado Vao and Wolfen Szen. When he was up against a powerhouse such as Kao Cen Darach, he couldn't outduel him and got pwned in their confrontation. he has limits.

Ah yes - Mi dispiace Mio Amigo but i had to correct you, this seems much more fitting now si?

My common sense is working. Is yours?

I was under the impression that you never had any considering your constant and foolish attempts at making the TOR era sith almost godlike

SW Legend

I am not as era biased as you assume me to be. I don't let my liking of an era cloud my judgment.

Not according to the observations of most of the posters here. You seem to give too much weight to simply being from TOR Empire, even when an individual is several tiers down within it and/or hasn't shown significant feats.


More importantly, when did Darth Talon ever defeat Cade Skywalker?

In their sparring session, Claws of the Dragon story. Stabbed him in the shoulder.

Also, late in the comic she was able to do a short clash and then evade him when she was delivering Draco. Which, while not a win, still shows she's quite skilled as that's when Cade is near his peak. Her main problem tends to be when she goes on offense, if she's just on defense she can evade even his (Talon ironically would be very good as a highly defensive duelist, but tends to be more aggressive, and while her aggression works against many foes, it does not work against Cade).

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Listing the opponent's she's fought against you damn fools. Must i be the meat in an imbecile sandwhich?

- Cade Skywalker is legit.
- The rest are Ok.
- None of those whom Darth Talon defeated are superior to Darth Malgus and Lord Vindican.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Nothing suggest he can do the same thing even IF it was a show of raw power.

Subjective claim unfortunately

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Being an inquisitor doesnt automatically grant one vast knowledge of the dark side nor does it immediately make them a match for someone like Talon who is arguably only somewhat lesser than Nihl
.
What do you think Sith Inquisitor is?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Meanwhile Satale got back up without a scratch....as a padawan

She wasn't subjected to a prolonged barrage but just a burst of lightning. Even that burst of lightning send her packing noticeable distance away from the battlefield. After this event, Kao Cen Darach convinced Satele Shan to leave the battle and escape.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
And yours is based on over exaggerated assumptions and inaccuracies.

Utter bullshit.

All I see in your claims is utter lowballing of TOR era characters with claims that the individuals whom Darth Talon fought are vastly superior to Lord Vindican and Kao Cen Darach and mostly subjective claims.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
And no one within Krayt's forces is a weakling either.

Kindly provide official information that validate this claim.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Arguable but for the sake of keeping my sanity i'll agree with you, if only because of Nox. but Vindican isnt on Nox's level in terms of force mastery.

Its not arguable, read official information and educate yourself: http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes/sith-inquisitor

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
You ignore the point - Christ its like Legolas' arrows keep missing your bloody head! The point is, just because one is the master of an exceptionally talented padawan doesnt make one exceptionally talented as well - title holds no meaning. Need i point to Cin Drallig? or even Anoon Bondara who was a Jedi battlemaster and a watchmen.

I didn't ignore your point. Zhar Lestin cannot take credit of being the sole instructor of Revan. The latter had many instructors to hone his talents.

I don't know much about Darth Malgus's training history but Lord Vindican is his best known instructor and mentor.

After the extermination of Brotherhood of Darkness, Jedi Order slowly but surely grew out of touch of its element of vigilance and competence. This is why we see individuals such as Cin Dralling becoming Battlemasters of the Order during the era of peace. To be honest, Mace Windu would have been much better choice but what I can say about it, I didn't wrote this content.

Anoon Bondara wasn't bad, he became victim of an accident.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Same could be said for Talon especially in the pain threshold department.

Tolerating pain is different from tanking explosive power and kinetic force of a rocket or missile.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Ah yes - Mi dispiace Mio Amigo but i had to correct you, this seems much more fitting now si?

Lame

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
I was under the impression that you never had any considering your constant and foolish attempts at making the TOR era sith almost godlike

Its funny that you regard me as lacking common sense when you aren't using yours.

Legend, they don't NEED to be better than Vindican and Malgus... Only Vindican.

BECAUSE SHE'S FIGHTING VINDICAN.

SW Legend

- None of those whom Darth Talon defeated are superior to Darth Malgus and Lord Vindican.

Note, while we're talking Malgus, this is NOT Darth Malgus, Emperor, or Darth Malgus, invader of Coruscant, or even, Darth Malgus, fighter of Satele Shan.

This is before any of that, when he's weaker than any of that. The Ven Zallow he killed would kick this early Malgus's butt. And this Malgus is stronger than Vindican.

So yea, they might not be stronger than the two of them combined, but they've certainly got better dueling feats than Vindican by a good margin.

Even as he was weaker he was still able to swat away ship parts that weighed tons that were TKed at him, use force shield to deflect fire, and outduel a battlemaster and his padawan. Not bad for a 20 year old trainee 😄

Originally posted by carthage
Even as he was weaker he was still able to swat away ship parts that weighed tons that were TKed at him, use force shield to deflect fire, and outduel a battlemaster and his padawan. Not bad for a 20 year old trainee 😄

Sure, but people say Malgus and think of him at his *best* ^^ Malgus grows several fold strong over time.

Heck, 'around 20 years old, just out from under their master, capable of TKing tons and fights masters,' is a description that fits Talon too. At this point, their feats are surprisingly similar.