Darth Nox vs. Count Dooku

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Getting emotional now?

Are you an authority when it comes to Star Wars? Don't try to act like one.

I presented an argument. If you do not agree with it, you should provide a reasonable counter-argument.

Of course not. I'm just telling you to cut the hypocrisy.

I consider myself an authority on the subject, yes. At least, when I make statements about a characters level of power, I do so prepared to back up my statements with facts and reasoning when called on it. Like I did to justify my belief that Zash isn't a particularly powerful Sith.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth title does not implies great power on its own, it is earned with great accomplishments typically, at-least in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire. Darth Nox wasn't crowned as a Darth until he defeated Darth Thanaton which was an extreme level of challenge for earning the title of Darth to be honest.

Darth Nox was already a powerful Force-user by mythos standards during the time of his apprenticeship to Lord Zash, verified in TOR Encyclopedia.

In addition, you get to decide how strong an opponent is on the basis of at which point the confrontation took place? Don't be ridiculous.

[B]ANALOGY: Bengel Morr (fallen) was a big threat to the Jedi Order but was taken down in the first planet, he utterly dominated the powerful Jedi Master Orgus Din in a battle but could not handle Hero of Tython. In-fact, Hero of Tython is labeled as such for his performances in Tython.

More importantly, Darth Skotia wasn't taken out in a fair contest. [/b]

Nox wasn't crowned a Darth because she'd only been a Sith for a few years. All the TOR protagonists are massive exceptions to the normal rules since they become powerhouses many times faster than most other Jedi and Sith. Nox was definitely a Darth in terms of combat ability by the end of Act 1, considering she beat Zash. It just takes more than power and combat prowess to become a Darth. That Skotia was a Darth isn't that impressive. That only makes him a powerful Sith Lord, big deal. Someone like Dooku could walk through Sith Lords, just look at how he treated a Jedi Master in the latest PT comic.

And so is Ahsoka Tano, you gonna say she's Dooku level as well. 🙄 Where is it verified Nox was already a powerful Force user at that point? I don't see it in the book. At least not by the time Nox fought Skotia. Besides, power is relative. As I stated in the other thread, you're powerful merely if you become a Sith Lord. Nox being powerful doesn't put her anywhere near Dooku.

How is that ridiculous? Nox fought Skotia when she was inexperienced, of course he isn't as good as the challenges she faced later on.

You can't compare Nox to the Hero of Tython. The Hero was an incredible prodigy with massive power. Nox was good, but without the spirits the HoT is completely out of her league. By the time Nox fought Skotia she really was not that great in the grand scheme of things.

Who cares if he was taken out in a fair contest. That doesn't make him Dooku level. Jesus.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I do not tend to place any TOR era character above anyone in any other era, don't be ridiculous.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh wait, you're serious? Legend, you absolutely do that. All the time. It's basically your defining characteristic.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
By your logic, Count Dooku is mid-level strong since he doesn't stacks up to Darth Sidious. Darth Skotia isn't a mid-level Sith, he is very powerful and is feared within the Empire by even popular Lords. Of-course, Darth Skotia have superiors but he isn't a mid-level Sith.

Those Trandosians were body guards of Darth Skotia, not some weaklings.

Darth Nox took down the entire powerbase of Darth Skotia before confronting him, he was already powerful by mythos standards at this point but not strong enough to contend with Darth Skotia in a fair contest.

At Zash's bidding, the inquisitor sabotages and ultimately destroys the cyborg Darth Skotia, thus paving way for the Zash to take his place and become a Darth. (TOR Encyclopedia)

Sabotaging represents use of a disruptor weapon which significantly weakened Darth Skotia before he could be taken down.

Skotia wasn't on the Dark Council, he was just one of the thousands of Darths in the Empire. Don't act as if he was some powerhouse, he wasn't.

Killing non-force sensitives with the Force is hardly impressive no matter whose henchmen they are.

Nox beating some Trandosians and Skotia's military forces hardly proves she was particularly powerful. Merely adequate. That she needed help against him despite already having Khem only indicates her mediocrity at this point in the story.

You don't need to post quotes detailing the story, Legend, I've played it. I know Nox weakened him and how.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You've gone insane, Legend.

Nothing can be as bad as this. Only carthage is this crazy in his beliefs.

My placement of Malak is practically the same as yours btw.

Eh, Vos>Bane is up there too. So is Jango Fett>Revan.

Your placement is out of an unknown hatred for him.
You even admitted you don't care for him and merely skimmed my threads of him.

Plot Twist: Ant and Neph break up because of Malak.

Yeah, Carthage is ****ing nuts.

It's out of a basic analysis of his feats, accolades and implied power level.

That's only because your threads are really ****ing long and I couldn't be bothered reading all that blabber. It was laziness, not hatred.

So if you guys have a fight... who sleeps on the couch?

No, you ignore direct statements from Drew, pretend the quote saying he is among the most powerful doesn't exist, and try to lowball his impressive performances against Revan every time you can.

He can't defeat Bill Nye though according to you. 😛

Because I don't give a shit about Drews opinions and don't see those statements as canon, that quote has been argued as invalid by others, not just me and for a reason and I lowball them down to the same level you put him at so who cares.

Only Marka Ragnos can, obviously.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because I don't give a shit about Drews opinions and don't see those statements as canon, that quote has been argued as invalid by others not just me and I lowball them down to the same level you put him at so who cares.

I'm not seeing how Dooku can really apply his skill here without Nox straight up walking through his attacks and overwhelming him.

Dooku has overcame raw powerhouses like Savage Opress, though the Zabrak is obviously not on even Darth Nox's level merely as Lord Kallig (mid-game; level 39). It should be closer then you are implying, but I'll go with Nox. Her lightning is beastly.

He is not.

In-fact, I would argue that Darth Skotia could be on par with Count Dooku, if not better. Darth Skotia was so powerful that Lord Zash thought that her apprentice may not be able to defeat her in a fair battle and she did not took chances either. Darth Skotia's cybernetics had to be compromised before he could be taken down. Please keep in mind that Darth Nox wasn't a mook when he confronted Darth Skotia, he was already realized as the most powerful Sith Lord to have emerged in a span of generations and was the 2nd individual to impress Khem Val after Tulak Hord in a span of thousands of years.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This battle is unlikely to get in to lightsaber dueling. Darth Nox packs too much power if we are considering his peak augmented incarnation, don't you get it?

When Darth Thanaton intended to use his lightsaber in the 3rd duel, Darth Nox simply prevented the former from doing so which is virtually impossible otherwise since Darth Thanaton is one of the strongest mortals to have emerged in the mythos, Darth Nox was augmented to such a degree.

As I've said earlier, Dooku is too capable in the force to be dominated like that. His disadvantage would be the lack of knowledge of the ancient sith techniques but he would definitely defend his way to a melee combat.

He is not.

In-fact, I would argue that Darth Skotia could be on par with Count Dooku, if not better. Darth Skotia was so powerful that Lord Zash thought that her apprentice may not be able to defeat her in a fair battle and she did not took chances either. Darth Skotia's cybernetics had to be compromised before he could be taken down. Please keep in mind that Darth Nox wasn't a mook when he confronted Darth Skotia, he was already realized as the most powerful Sith Lord to have emerged in a span of generations and was the 2nd individual to impress Khem Val after Tulak Hord in a span of thousands of years.

You are heavily underrating Dooku here.

I keep experiencing a culture shock in this forum. Legend claims that Skotia is Dooku's equal and then Carthage thinks Dooku can defeat Vitiate. 😆

Indeed

The percentage that outguns Count Dooku is small on holistic level but it is still not a very small list.

Again, same could be said for Nox.

I agree that Dread Masters vs Dark Council would be a fight that I would even pay to see but I believe that Dread Masters are so much specialized and capable in the ways of the Force that it is virtually impossible to handle even a lone Dread Master on his own turf in a fair contest at-least unless that individual is Emperor Vitiate and he is the only one who had earned respect of Dread Masters, no one else could.

Dread Masters are more powerful in total and they can perform extremely devastating attacks together where Dark Council members are weaker and aren't a real team. The DM wins for sure. Still though, I think Darth Jadus has the potential to be more powerful than a dread master and Malgus could give a good fight.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Of course not. I'm just telling you to cut the hypocrisy.

I consider myself an authority on the subject, yes. At least, when I make statements about a characters level of power, I do so prepared to back up my statements with facts and reasoning when called on it. Like I did to justify my belief that Zash isn't a particularly powerful Sith.

I made an informed assessment, I cannot verify it at official capacity but it have some basis. The real problem with Star Wars is that we have lot of unanswered questions and this is why debates occur. Some ground realities of the lore are solidly apparent even without official verification such as Emperor Vitiate > Count Dooku but not every aspect of the lore is crystal clear to us and therefore leaves room for debate.

I find this disclosure interesting:

The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.

The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view. (Christopher Cerasi)

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nox wasn't crowned a Darth because she'd only been a Sith for a few years. All the TOR protagonists are massive exceptions to the normal rules since they become powerhouses many times faster than most other Jedi and Sith. Nox was definitely a Darth in terms of combat ability by the end of Act 1, considering she beat Zash. It just takes more than power and combat prowess to become a Darth. That Skotia was a Darth isn't that impressive. That only makes him a powerful Sith Lord, big deal. Someone like Dooku could walk through Sith Lords, just look at how he treated a Jedi Master in the latest PT comic.

Secondly, I am not impressed by Darth Skotia on the basis of his recognition as a Darth but because of the fact that even the most promising graduate in a span of generations could not handle him in a fair contest, a graduate who has impressed Khem Val earlier, a being who was impressed by only Tulak Hord in history before, noted that Khem Val did not meet everybody but still Tulak Hord is among the biggest fish in the pond (mythos). Darth Skotia had augmented his power with state-of-the-art cybernetics and they had to be compromised before he could be taken out and he was noted for his power even by prominent Sith of his era which I may add are one of the most impressive to have ever existed in history, this is the crucial observation.

It is safe to assume that Darth Skotia is among the extraordinary at holistic level, thanks to his unnatural power progression but valid part of the equation defining his strength. Of-course, even he is outclassed at the APEX of the Empire but this is indication of extreme standards of Sith in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire in general. Sith arguably approached their peak in every aspect of Sith ideals within the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire, standards for becoming Lords and Darths also became ridiculously high accordingly.

You also asserted that Lord Zash isn't impressive? Well, here is a revelation for you:-

The bright, energetic, and disarmingly friendly Lord Zash is a devoted Sith and master of the dark arts. (TOR Encyclopedia)

Originally posted by Nephthys
And so is Ahsoka Tano, you gonna say she's Dooku level as well. 🙄 Where is it verified Nox was already a powerful Force user at that point? I don't see it in the book. At least not by the time Nox fought Skotia. Besides, power is relative. As I stated in the other thread, you're powerful merely if you become a Sith Lord. Nox being powerful doesn't put her anywhere near Dooku.

Years later, Darth Thanaton is on the verge of securing his seat on the Dark Council. But his plans are momentarily disrupted when his underling, Darth Skotia, is killed by the upstart Sith Lord Zash and her powerful new apprentice. (TOR Encyclopedia)

I suppose you haven't read TOR Encyclopedia properly. Do me a favor; read TOR Encyclopedia properly instead of boasting about your possession of it.

Power is relative but context is important to consider. A Sith Lord of lets say Legacy era may not be regarded as powerful in the reconstructed ancient Sith Empire or even be successful in it, if planted there. Reason is that reconstituted ancient Sith Empire had ridiculously high standards for Lords and Darths and enormous competition in which even prominent Sith could fall. This is why every Lord and Darth was a big thing and an imposing figure in the Empire for the lesser individuals.

Originally posted by Nephthys
How is that ridiculous? Nox fought Skotia when she was inexperienced, of course he isn't as good as the challenges she faced later on.

Darth Nox wasn't inexperienced when he confronted Darth Skotia, he had proven his credibility in the deadly Sith trails, an official method for becoming a Lord in the Empire, and had reasonable combat experience under his belt before confronting Darth Skotia, had to fight many individuals before confronting Darth Skotia.

Lord Zash was not an idiot, she wouldn't have sent her apprentice to fight Darth Skotia if she had no hope of success.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You can't compare Nox to the Hero of Tython. The Hero was an incredible prodigy with massive power. Nox was good, but without the spirits the HoT is completely out of her league. By the time Nox fought Skotia she really was not that great in the grand scheme of things.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Who cares if he was taken out in a fair contest. That doesn't make him Dooku level. Jesus.

Originally posted by Nephthys
AHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh wait, you're serious? Legend, you absolutely do that. All the time. It's basically your defining characteristic.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Skotia wasn't on the Dark Council, he was just one of the thousands of Darths in the Empire. Don't act as if he was some powerhouse, he wasn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Killing non-force sensitives with the Force is hardly impressive no matter whose henchmen they are.

Nox beating some Trandosians and Skotia's military forces hardly proves she was particularly powerful. Merely adequate. That she needed help against him despite already having Khem only indicates her mediocrity at this point in the story.

You don't need to post quotes detailing the story, Legend, I've played it. I know Nox weakened him and how.

Yes, you played the story, but this doesn't solves the issue at hand. Issue is with your mindset and lack of focus on important details.

When it suits you, you try to hype Darth Nox or any character in extreme fashion and provide details that you won't otherwise, when it does not, you try to lowball them in worst possible fashion and skip details that may weaken your position.

Do me a favor, at-least be consistent in your position.

Sometimes I read your posts and feel the overwhelming urge to curl up into a little ball and weep. You make me so, so exasperated at times, Legend.

Written by LeGenD

When it suits me, I try to hype Darth Nox or any [TOR] character in an extreme fashion and provide details that I won't otherwise. When it is not [a TOR character], I try to lowball them in worst possible fashion and skip details that may weaken my position.

👆

That made me laugh.