Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader is physically superior to Revan, and he can absorb lightning onto his saber. He's done so against Dooku as Anakin. There is absolutely nothing to suggest Vitiate can overpower Vader's saber defense, given Vader's immense strength. And no, the same can't be said about Sidious, because Sidious has overwhelmed the saber defenses of physical power houses with ease.If Vitiate goes for a TP assault, Vader could just hurl Vitiate on his ass and proceed with another attack before Vitiate could get up.
So your whole argument is that because he blocked Dooku's lightning he can do so to Vitiates? That's not a very good one in my opinion. So I'm afraid I need to restate my point, Vader has no feats to suggest he can block Vitiate's lightning. I'm not sure what Vader being stronger than Revan was supposed to prove because it certainly didn't prove that. You don't absorb lightning with your muscles. Well, you don't do so without getting the Skywalker treatment.
Lol @ Vader hurling Vitiate on his ass. Vader has no defense against Vitiate's mind like Revan did. As soon as Vitiate touches him mentally Vader will be in psychic agony. And even if not Revan couldn't make a mere Imperial Guardman budge with TK, Vader can't just push Vitiate like that directly. Vitiate's defense is too powerful.
Originally posted by carthage
Again Sidious you're giving credence to the idea that Vitiate can even try to attempt to prod Vader's mind and actually "dominate" him. Why would this be he case when all of his domination feats are on a nexus?
Vitiate can try, but I didn't say it would be successful. Vader was the apprentice of one of the most powerful telepaths in history, and considering Vader tried to shield his thoughts from Sidious at all times, logically shielding himself from mental intrusion is something Vader would know a lot about. IIRC, even Mara was capable of mentally defending herself from Jorus (who enslaved the minds of entire armies) on account of Palpatine's training. A mere hands training is far more limited than an actual apprentice.
Vader could attack with TK before Vitiate would be able to break down his mental barriers.
Originally posted by Nephthys
So your whole argument is that because he blocked Dooku's lightning he can do so to Vitiates?
You said Vader has no feats with regards to dealing with lightning with his saber, which is false, considering he's defended against Dooku's.
Originally posted by Nephthys
So I'm afraid I need to restate my point, Vader has no feats to suggest he can block Vitiate's lightning.
Vitiate has no feats with lightning to indicate he could overpower the saber defense of someone as strong as Vader.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not sure what Vader being stronger than Revan was supposed to prove because it certainly didn't prove that. You don't absorb lightning with your muscles. Well, you don't do so without getting the Skywalker treatment.
Being strong has a lot to do with it. A Kenobi level force user can use the force to draw lightning onto their saber, so it doesn't take a supremely powerful force user to know how to defend against lightning via saber. The rest comes down to physical strength and/or how strong the lightning is in order to continue containing it with a saber. Vader has strength feats to suggest he could push through Vitiate's lightning with his saber, whereas Vitiate has no lightning feats to suggest he could overpower an individual as strong as Vader.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol @ Vader hurling Vitiate on his ass. Vader has no defense against Vitiate's mind like Revan did. As soon as Vitiate touches him mentally Vader will be in psychic agony. And even if not Revan couldn't make a mere Imperial Guardman budge with TK, Vader can't just push Vitiate like that directly. Vitiate's defense is too powerful.
Vader knows about mental shields, which is how Revan blocked Vitiate's TK attack.
Yes, if Vitiate wastes his attention on trying to TP Vader, Vader could hurl Vitiate with his superior TK in a split second.
Revan did manage to force hurl Vitiate when the latter tried to TP him, despite being on a DS nexus. Vader has superior TK feats to Vitiate, so I'm not seeing why he couldn't use it to his advantage.
Vitiate: power.
Vader: combat.
Vader wins in a fight 8 times out of 10, Vitiate is however more powerful over all. Hell the novel states outright that Vitiate is not a combatant by any means, he is a scholar through and through.
Vader on the other hand is absolutely centered on combat, Sidious even states that in an outright 1 vs 1 Vader would be a very decent match for him.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Quote for that?
"Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship can begun."
"More important, by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his mastery, Sidious would be fully conversant with the secrets Plagueis had spent a lifetime seeking - the power over life and death. There would be no need to fear Vader. No need to have an apprentice other than to honor the tradition Darth Bane had resurrected a millenium earlier."
Clearly Vader in Sidious' opinion would become a genuine threat to him.
Originally posted by AncientPower
"Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship can begun.""More important, by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his mastery, Sidious would be fully conversant with the secrets Plagueis had spent a lifetime seeking - the power over life and death. There would be no need to fear Vader. No need to have an apprentice other than to honor the tradition Darth Bane had resurrected a millenium earlier."
Clearly Vader in Sidious' opinion would become a genuine threat to him.
And it stands to question whether or not Vader reached his potential.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Vitiate: power.
Vader: combat.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Vader wins in a fight 8 times out of 10, Vitiate is however more powerful over all. Hell the novel states outright that Vitiate is not a combatant by any means, he is a scholar through and through.
You didn't read the novel properly. Emperor Vitiate had reputation of being a scholar in the (first) ancient Sith Empire because he did not participate in wars and was not actively involved in politics. However, Emperor Vitiate kicked @ss of any Sith who attempted to challenge him.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Vader on the other hand is absolutely centered on combat, Sidious even states that in an outright 1 vs 1 Vader would be a very decent match for him.
Even on a nexus Vitiate needs time to concentrate to use his TP, and as Revan displayed, his focus can be easily interrupted.
His standard lightning isn't anything Vader shouldn't be able to stop with his lightsaber--Both Revan and the Hero of Tython are testaments to this. His Telekinesis is arguably superior to Vader's, but if it is, the difference would probably be relatively minimal. His illusions could either be dispelled, or easily dissipated via lightsaber strikes. The Emperor's FLS that overwhelmed Revan and Tol Bragga is the greatest threat to Vader that the Emperor poses without able preparation.
Unless you can recall something else, of course.
Originally posted by AncientPower
"Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship can begun.""More important, by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his mastery, Sidious would be fully conversant with the secrets Plagueis had spent a lifetime seeking - the power over life and death. There would be no need to fear Vader. No need to have an apprentice other than to honor the tradition Darth Bane had resurrected a millenium earlier."
Clearly Vader in Sidious' opinion would become a genuine threat to him.
Sidious was of the opinion that Vader's potential didn't decrease, and was thus still potentially more powerful than himself.
As for overall force mastery, Vitiate is Vader's superior, but in terms of raw power, it goes to Vader. Vader can casually crush entire tie fighters just by closing his fist, toss around starships, hurl huge vehicles, force blast through stone walls, collapse entire cathedrals, lift and rip apart building size droids, and telekinetically kill some jedi with ease. Not to mention he is one of the few force user who have shown to attack others with TK from a distance of light years.
His durability is such that he can tank grenade explosives, tank force blasts that destroy entire towers and disintegrate stormtroopers, survive having an entire cathedral collapsed on him, and survive an amped version of SK's lightning that's being shot directly into a tear in his chest plate.
Vader is one of the most powerful force users in galactic history. He's not going down to Vitiate with any kind of ease. Vader has the strength to push through Vitiate's lightning, and even if some of the bolts miss Vader's lightsaber and hit him, it's not going to be enough to take him out, given Vader's durability.