Darth Vader vs Emperor Vitiate

Originally posted by Nephthys
I said that Vader doesn't have the feats with regards to dealing with lightning to indicate that he could push through Vitiate's lightning.

Those weren't your words. But if that is what you were suggesting then I could just turn that argument around and say Vitiate doesn't have any feats with lightning to indicate he could easily overpower someone who not only rivals himself in power but someone far more durable than anyone he's faced.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He [b]lost to a full brunt attack from SK through his chest plate. 😬 That Vader can "tank" it doesn't mean he can keep fighting after receiving that kind of damage.[/B]

What makes you think that some bolts that might miss Vader's saber will do as much damage as SK's full on attack that was hitting Vader in a very weak spot? Sorry, Vitiate's lightning isn't that powerful, especially off a nexus.

You're forgetting that Vader is blocking Vitiate's lightning with his saber, and doesn't have a tear in his chest.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So question: If this was Sidious, would you still be arguing that Vader could plow through his lightning? I'm just curious, I don't want to start anything. This is merely an honest question about your opinion.

How about you answer this question: why do you assume Vitiate can do everything Sidious has shown to do? Sidious chokes Dooku from across the galaxy, and you try to use that as an argument in Vitiate's favor. Now you can't provide any off nexus lightning feats to suggest Vitiate can easily down someone like Vader, then you bring Sidious in to this. Why? I could probably make an actual case for Sidious if I wanted to, but this isn't about him, and it wouldn't help your case. Unless you just want me to go on about Sidious's superiority over Vitiate, I can do that? BTW, Vader did take Sidious' lightning long enough to throw him over the DS reactor shaft.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not combined. Vitiate won't be dealing with 5 attackers here, he'll be solely focusing it on Vader. He can buy himself a few seconds to charge up the lasah at the least.

The 5 jedi weren't combining their strength to overcome the attack, they were individually defending themselves, and most of them were stunned in the first few seconds. Only Braga and HoT managed to successfully push through the very first assault, which was 20 seconds worth of attack. Neither Braga nor HoT has Vader's strength or durability. They haven't survived half the shit Vader has been through. Vader has had his masked ripped off and then energy columns toppled directly on him, and got right back up, and then, right after that, he tanked a powerful force explosion from Marek that damaged the DS tower and shredded apart storm troopers, and still got right back up. He's been stabbed in his stomach by his own saber and got up as if nothing happened. That's not even half of what Vader has tanked. No, Vitiate has never dealt with someone like Vader.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It is kind of unintelligent. I never denied that physical strength had something to do with it, it does and it is A factor, only that its the sole deciding factor after you can contain lightning. That's not true at all, as evidenced by the examples I provided. Also your example is pretty poor since strength can easily refer to [b]Force strength as well as physical strength.[/B]

I didn't say it was the sole factor in containing lightning, which is why I acknowledged the likelihood of some of the bolts missing Vader's saber and hitting him. I said that it doesn't require a supremely powerful force user to be able to absorb lightning onto their saber, and that if they are able to, then the rest is left up to their physical strength and/or how powerful the lightning is in order to continue containing it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vader cannot handle lightning on the scale of Sidious or Vitiate even with his lightsaber. Unless you have feats suggesting otherwise, that is.

Likewise, Vitiate can't easily overwhelm someone like Vader, unless you have feats suggesting otherwise.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I.... don't care that he was Sidious' apprentice and tried to hide things. Exal Kressh was Vitiate's apprentice and tried to hide stuff from him, so can she resist Sidious' telepathy too?

Unlike Vitiate, Sidious has actually dominated the mind of a very powerful force user (Vader) from a distance of light years. Would you accept the notion that Sidious can instantly dominate Bane's mind? I can ask questions too.

Again, this is just another area that Sidious as shown himself to be greater than Vitiate's in, so if I were you, I wouldn't keep bringing Sidious in this, unless you want to be reminded how much better Sidious is than Vitiate. Vitiate doesn't get granted Sidious capabilities just because he's his rip-off character, sorry.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It doesn't mean that he was using a common mental shield just because the word shield was used. Darth Revan was clearly familiar with basic telepathy, yet in the novel Revan only states that now he knows Vitiate's technqiues and how to defend against them.

So tell me how Revan's mental shield is different?

Originally posted by Nephthys
And I never stated that Vitiate would instantly dominate his mind, just that Vader couldn't be capable of striking against Vitiate while battling him mentally and feeling the effects of touching Vitiate's mind, which have been established as being very hazardous through Scourge's experience and by the fact that merely touching his mind has turned beings such as Servant Two permanently insane.

Scourge was instantly dominated, so why bring him up if you're not suggesting that Vader gets instantly dominated?

If Revan can use a force attack while fighting off Vitiate's mental intrusion, then so can Vader, except even easier considering Vader is superior to Vitiate in TK and wouldn't require as much concentration for him to use a force push as it would for Vitiate to try to break through his mental defense.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Drew stated that his opinion was uninformed and unofficial in the same breath, so you're welcome to his opinions if you want but don't expect me to treat them seriously.

I still take his opinion more seriously than I do yours, considering he wrote the character, and nothing contradicts what he said.

Other than Scourge (who doesn't have as good TP feat as Vader like NewGuy pointed out, and isn't anywhere near as powerful as Vader), Vitiate has been shown to require prep or have his opponents rendered unconscious before he can instantly dominate their minds, otherwise he's getting hurled on his ass by Revan, even while on a dark side nexus.

Here, Vitiate isn't on a nexus so most of his powers are not as great as they have been shown to be, including his telepathy. He's not instantly dominating Vader in any area of force ability without prep, or a DS nexus. Even a nexus wouldn't be that useful considering Vader would benefit from it just as much.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't say that Revan rivals Vader in TK (though he does imo but I don't want to debate that), only that Vader is not so far above him that he can beat up Vitiate when Revan could hardly affect an IG borrowing a fraction of Vitiate's power. I don't care if you think Vader has better offensive TK than Vitiate does, but from that showing Vitiate has the defenses to tank anything Vader throws at him.

So just because Vitiate can withstand a Revan level telekinetic means he can withstand a telekinetic who is superior to himself? Based on what, never being attacked by one? But that logic doesn't apply to Vader concerning Vitiate's lightning?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also that claim is hardly unsupported. Others and myself have discussed it at length. You already know all the support for it. 😬

It is unsupported unless you can support it. In this case, you haven't. It's not too late to do so; here's your chance.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I do agree that Revan being "vulnerable" and mentally weak is an over-exaggerated point.

He was vulnerable, though. Not because he was mentally weak, but because he underestimated Vitiate, leaving himself vulnerable to Vitiate, and was already falling to the dark side at the time. Meanwhile, Vitiate was fully prepared for them.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He's probed Luke's mind without his consent from a vast distance on more than one occasion, and Luke himself is a high level telepath.

IIRC he also drove a guy insane after ripping information from his mind at one point. Don't hold me to that one, though.

I don't recall anything suggesting Luke was a high level telepath at this point.

Meh. Vitiate turned people insane merely from touching their minds with his.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That is completely unsupported, and speculation to begin with. The lightsaber absorbs the stream, it's not a force power.

Pffft, no it is very much a force power. If it was as easy as just holding up your lightsaber anyone could do it. I've posted proof that you need to use the Force to block it in the thread already. The lightsaber does absorb the lightning but you still need to contain and draw the lightning into the blade. That's why it's possible not to simply absorb the lightning but reflect it in some cases or to gather it around the blade and hurl the lightning back at your attacker, like Malgus does to Adraas in Deceived or Darach does to him in Return. Even Starkiller swirled lightning around his saber to give it more punch. If it was an automatic absorption by the lightsaber, those things wouldn't be possible.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And I agree. But we're talking about Darth Vader, a guy who has been building himself to defend himself against lightning specifically for years.

Well, do you think he could walk through Sidious or Bane's lightning too? He still really has nothing suggesting he can do that.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Can do what? How often do you see sorcery applied in combat? His illusions and TP are probably the bulk of it.

Uh, quite often? I am sure Vitiate can bust out some things similar to Thanaton's combat ritual, Ommin/Aleema's blasts and spells or some Zannah style mind-hax. I mean, Sith Sorcerer's were a thing. And Vitiate was pretty much the greatest to live other than Sidious maybe.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vitiate will eventually hug Vader's saber anyway.

5char.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Those weren't your words. But if that is what you were suggesting then I could just turn that argument around and say Vitiate doesn't have any feats with lightning to indicate he could easily overpower someone who not only rivals himself in power but someone far more durable than anyone he's faced.

You said Vader "should be capable of pushing through Vitiate's lightning with his saber" to which I replied "Vader doesn't have the feats with regards to dealing with lightning to indicate that." I was responding directly to the claim that Vader could push through his lightning, not that he could block lightning in the first place.

I didn't claim he would easily overpower him. Although since he easily overpowered 4 of the strongest Jedi of their era, I don't think you could say that. Vader has no feats of blocking high-level lightning. Meanwhile Vitiate does have high-level feats of lightning. Do the math. /Legend

Also you're forgetting that Sith walking around in Vader style armor was a common occurrence in Vitiate's Empire. Sidious even based Vader's armor on those kinds of things. So going on about how Vitiate can't compete with Vader's durability is kind of a fallacy.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What makes you think that some bolts that might miss Vader's saber will do as much damage as SK's full on attack that was hitting Vader in a very weak spot? Sorry, Vitiate's lightning isn't that powerful, especially off a nexus.

You're forgetting that Vader is blocking Vitiate's lightning with his saber, and doesn't have a tear in his chest.

It pretty much is that powerful bro. We already saw what Sidious' lightning did to Vader. Plus I'm not sure about the canonicity of that scene you're referring to. That's not how it goes in the game, ze original source.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
snip

Urgh. This was why I hesitated to ask that, I knew you'd turn it into a bloody dick-waving contest. Never ****ing mind. 🙄

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The 5 jedi weren't combining their strength to overcome the attack, they were individually defending themselves, and most of them were stunned in the first few seconds. Only Braga and HoT managed to successfully push through the very first assault, which was 20 seconds worth of attack.

snip

That doesn't matter, since Vitiate is still attacking all of them at the same time. So he is dealing with their combined power at the same time. That Leeha, Kira and Warren were still overpowered in the first few seconds only indicates the immense strength of Vitiate's storm.

Meh to everything else.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I didn't say it was the sole factor in containing lightning, which is why I acknowledged the likelihood of some of the bolts missing Vader's saber and hitting him. I said that it doesn't require a supremely powerful force user to be able to absorb lightning onto their saber, and that if they are able to, then the rest is left up to their physical strength and/or how powerful the lightning is in order to continue containing it.

And I said that's wrong, because you do need to be a supremely powerful Force user to contain supremely powerful lightning, to draw it into the blade. Whatever you seem to be suggesting, if I'm reading you right you're admitting that it comes down to the strength of the lightning to keep the lightning contained after you've drawn it to the blade. Well, I say that Vader can't do that to Vitiate's lightning.

Of course, I can also suggest that if Vader can't contain the lightning it could destroy his lightsaber with the power he can't contain. Exal Kressh style. There's more ways to skin a fox than punching it in the snout. He doesn't need to be content with hitting Vader with just a few bolts if he does that.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Likewise, Vitiate can't easily overwhelm someone like Vader, unless you have feats suggesting otherwise.

I don't recall suggesting it would be easy. I think he could take it decently well for a while. Though I do think that if he does his charged attack Vader is going down in short order.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Unlike Vitiate, Sidious has actually dominated the mind of a very powerful force user (Vader) from a distance of light years. Would you accept the notion that Sidious can instantly dominate Bane's mind? I can ask questions too.

Again, this is just another area that Sidious as shown himself to be greater than Vitiate's in, so if I were you, I wouldn't keep bringing Sidious in this, unless you want to be reminded how much better Sidious is than Vitiate. Vitiate doesn't get granted Sidious capabilities just because he's his rip-off character, sorry.

Darth Revan and Darth Malak are not very powerful Force users now? That's a laugh, both have been confirmed to be amongst the greats. And no I wouldn't accept that, becuase Bane actually has feats of resisting powerful mental attacks. Vader doesn't.

That's nice.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So tell me how Revan's mental shield is different?

He didn't really go into specifics. Only that what's different about his confrontation now is that he knows how to resist Vitiate "this time." Do you think the difference between Darth Revan and Reborn Revan is so vast that D!Revan gets instantly dominated with Malak and yet R!Revan can resist Vitiate for 300 years if they're using the same technique? No, he could resist the second time because he knew how to this time. Vader doesn't have this advantage.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Scourge was instantly dominated, so why bring him up if you're not suggesting that Vader gets instantly dominated?

If Revan can use a force attack while fighting off Vitiate's mental intrusion, then so can Vader, except even easier considering Vader is superior to Vitiate in TK and wouldn't require as much concentration for him to use a force push as it would for Vitiate to try to break through his mental defense.

He didn't get dominated, he got pwned by the psychic anguish and rendered incapable of fighting back. Since Vader has some mental feats and is very powerful, I can see him doing better than this but I still don't think he can effectively attack Vitiate while he's working on dominating him.

Revan was shielding his mind from Vitiate using the knowledge he gained through experiencing it first hand. Since theres no mention of the agony Scourge faced (all that's mentioned is pressure), it's a safe assumption that he never had to deal with that shit. Vader will. And he won't take that and be capable of busting out his best attacks like Revan was.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I still take his opinion more seriously than I do yours, considering he wrote the character, and nothing contradicts what he said.

Other than Scourge (who doesn't have as good TP feat as Vader like NewGuy pointed out, and isn't anywhere near as powerful as Vader), Vitiate has been shown to require prep or have his opponents rendered unconscious before he can instantly dominate their minds, otherwise he's getting hurled on his ass by Revan, even while on a dark side nexus.

Here, Vitiate isn't on a nexus so most of his powers are not as great as they have been shown to be, including his telepathy. He's not instantly dominating Vader in any area of force ability without prep, or a DS nexus. Even a nexus wouldn't be that useful considering Vader would benefit from it just as much.

That's super.

Vitiate required no prep to attempt to dominate Revan. Drews a senile twit.

Vitiate also became much more powerful than he was in his fight against Revan or in some other of his feats, due to draining his servants and Revan and other increases of his power. So him not being on a nexus is irrelevant, if a nexus was ever even an issue.

And once again, I never stated Vitiate would instantly dominate him. I think Vader is good enough to put up a fight against even Sidious, so of course he can hang with Vitiate for a bit. Though I do still think that based on the evidence, if Vitiate goes for the mindhaxx Vader will be incapacitated and taken out in short order.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So just because Vitiate can withstand a Revan level telekinetic means he can withstand a telekinetic who is superior to himself? Based on what, never being attacked by one? But that logic doesn't apply to Vader concerning Vitiate's lightning?

No, it's because a dude merely drawing on Vitiate's power can resist Revan level TK.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It is unsupported unless you can support it. In this case, you haven't. It's not too late to do so; here's your chance.

For the record I think it's a dick move insisting I type out feats you already know and that I've already argued with you about.

Meteor feat.
Tossing around Nox and the Warrior.
Ripping apart a ceiling casually.
Tanking Vitiate's TK.
Hurling a heavy stone lid across a room in an instant.

I don't recall anything suggesting Luke was a high level telepath at this point.

He's controlled the minds of enemy soldiers piloting ships from considerable distances, forcing them to fire on their allies. He's controlled non-force sensitives, forcing them to do very specific tasks. He's reached out with his mind and scoped an entire asteroid field, detecting all in it's borders. He was able to reach out and touch the mind of Wedge Antilles whilst the latter was piloting an X-wing a considerable distance away. He's contacted Leia telepathically despite her being a considerable distance away whilst only faintly conscious.

He's certainly not the absolute highest class, but Vader touching his mind and communing with him without his consent from star systems away is impressive. Not only this, but he was able to rip secrets from Luke's mind whilst the two were locked in combat, which is even more so. Luke has high-caliber TP, and Vader's is even better than that, Scourge can't compete.

Meh. Vitiate turned people insane merely from touching their minds with his.

I'm not arguing Vader's TP is superior to Vitiate's, I'm arguing that he *may* be capable enough to defend himself to some degree against an assault from Vitiate.

If it was as easy as just holding up your lightsaber anyone could do it.

Of course it's not that easy. It requires speed, precision, strength, and considerable defenses, but upper class Jedi are demonstrably capable of it.

Obi-Wan can't absorb lightning with his bare hands, and almost no Jedi can. But I assure you there are a good number of Jedi that have blocked lightning with their saber, because otherwise the Jedi would have been raped by Vitiate's millions of lightning-wielding Sith Lords.

I've posted proof that you need to use the Force to block it in the thread already.

I don't see any. Also, Vader has blocked lightning from Galen Marek and Count Dooku regardless. He also has extraordinarily powerful Force Defenses, has built-in lightning-proof insulation in his armor.

Well, do you think he could walk through Bane's lightning too? He still really has nothing suggesting he can do that.

Walk through it? No. Stop it with his lightsaber? Yeah.

Uh, quite often? I am sure Vitiate can bust out some things similar to Thanaton's combat ritual, Ommin/Aleema's blasts and spells or some Zannah style mind-hax. I mean, Sith Sorcerer's were a thing. And Vitiate was pretty much the greatest to live other than Sidious maybe.

Again, his TP and Illusions seem to be his "Zannah style mind-hax". We've never seen him demonstrate blasts or combat-spells in any of his battles, and I don't see any reason he could or would use them here.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vitiate will eventually hug Vader's saber anyway.

As good as Darth Vader is, he is not Hero of Tython.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He's controlled the minds of enemy soldiers piloting ships from considerable distances, forcing them to fire on their allies. He's controlled non-force sensitives, forcing them to do very specific tasks. He's reached out with his mind and scoped an entire asteroid field, detecting all in it's borders. He was able to reach out and touch the mind of Wedge Antilles whilst the latter was piloting an X-wing a considerable distance away. He's contacted Leia telepathically despite her being a considerable distance away whilst only faintly conscious.

He's certainly not the absolute highest class, but Vader touching his mind and communing with him without his consent from star systems away is impressive. Not only this, but he was able to rip secrets from Luke's mind whilst the two were locked in combat, which is even more so. Luke has high-caliber TP, and Vader's is even better than that, Scourge can't compete.

Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire also have produced some of the greatest masters of telepathy in the mythos, list includes Dread Masters. Emperor Vitiate is arguably unparalleled in matters of telepathy, he can easily break an opponent of Vader's caliber with just his telepathic abilities.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As good as Darth Vader is, he is not Hero of Tython.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In over a thousand years of history of combat, how many times Emperor have run into a lightsaber?

In his grand total of two major fights? Once.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
In his grand total of two major fights? Once.

Emperor Vitiate have fought many individuals actually, so many that a count have not been officially provided. His first major fight was against Lord Dramath, at the age of 10.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In over a thousand years of history of combat, how many times Emperor have run into a lightsaber?

As good as Darth Vader is, he is not Hero of Tython.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, but this is coming from you, so no one cares.

@Neph, I might reply tonight since I won't be going to sleep early.

Oh the irony of this statement. Let me know if you can find people on here that take you seriously on any level.

In his grand total of two major fights? Once.

Well, I guess you don't count him disposing of the entire dark council. Or the fact that the Hero fought his Voice. Don't let little facts like that get in your way.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Who said Vitiate has been fighting for over a thousand years in direct combat with anyone of high caliber?

lol

Following are (known) major battles:-

- Sith Lord Dramath
- Sith Strike Team led by Darth Lokess (first known rebellious Dark Council)
- Revan and Malak
- 9 members of another rebellious Dark Council during the era of Revan
- Revan (second time)
- Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga (HoT included)
- HoT (second time)

TOR sources reveal that dozens of other Jedi were also dispatched by the Order to gather information about Emperor Vitiate and eliminate him if possible besides HoT but they all failed. In-fact, Emperor Vitiate killed many individuals in his homeworld to become its ruler.

Most of what you listed aren't even battles. 😬

Originally posted by psmith81992
Oh the irony of this statement. Let me know if you can find people on here that take you seriously on any level.

You do.

Now, how about you, how many people take you seriously? Not too long ago in the battle bar you was the center of everyone's amusement, while you tried so desperately to prove that you don't pirate games, as if any one actually cared. They were only trolling you, just as I do when I respond to you. #cluelessmuch

Why don't you go enjoy your "wife." I know you're ashamed of her, but you could always turn the lights off.

Originally posted by psmith81992

Well, I guess you don't count him disposing of the entire dark council. Or the fact that the Hero fought his Voice. Don't let little facts like that get in your way.

Vitiate is very bias, so he probably wouldn't hug Vader's saber.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You do.

Now, how about you, how many people take you seriously? Not too long ago in the battle bar you was the center of everyone's amusement, while you tried so desperately to prove that you don't pirate games, as if any one actually cared. They were only trolling you, just as I do when I respond to you. #cluelessmuch

Why don't you go enjoy your "wife." I know you're ashamed of her, but you could always turn the lights off.

You've been here longer than me, and to this day you're still not taken seriously. You're only here to amuse the rest of us. But it's so cute that you have opinions that nobody cares about. Gives the rest of us something to laugh at.

😆

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He didn't battle the Dark Council. He utterly destroyed them to be sure, but it wasn't a fight.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
As for what the HoT fought, I think there's more evidence for that being the real Emperor than a Voice, but it matters little either way. It's still Vitiate walking into a lightsaber.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is as much a battle as any other battle, Emperor Vitiate performed an offensive action to subdue that rebellious Dark Council. In similar manner, Emperor Vitiate performed an offensive action to subdue to the duo of Revan and Malak.

Ground reality is that Emperor Vitiate is so powerful and have such command of the dark side that he can perform actions that are beyond the capability of most in the mythos.

TOR Encyclopedia hinted that HoT knocked out a Voice, not the original body. In-fact, Emperor Vitiate was massively weakened at this point from disruption of his ultimate ritual. This was a "now or never" moment.