I don't know why people are even discussing the lightsaber issue here. IMO Sidious wouldn't even need to draw it. Loki has no answer whatsoever to force TK. Sidious was a total beast in the Clone Wars. He could use force powers to dodge and avoid Loki's attacks, then force pull his spear from him, rag doll him until he is stunned, and then blast him in the face with his own weapon until he is KO'd. He literally doesn't even need his saber for this, at least IMO.
I really don't see Loki being able to do anything to beat him.
Stupid 15 minute edit rule:
Like I said, don't see Loki being able to overcome Sidious' speed, agility and force powers.
Edit: Ok no idea why the clip doesn't want to display right now. Never mind, fixed it.
Loki:
Illusions, cancelled out by Sidious' Force abilities
Scepter: Lightsaber would cut that up
Durability: Lightsaber would at least cut Loki, meaning that he could at least get his throat cut.
Not to mention that Sidious' Lightning would be a huge problem for Loki, his TK would easily grip Loki setting him up for some serious slice n dice from Sidious
Originally posted by Epicurus
Loki withstood the Destroyer-gun blast. That along with the Bifrost feat, should definitely ensure that his durability is high enough to withstand lightsaber heat.
It doesn't matter, when Loki can't do shit to Sidious. Based on force speed/precog/agility/reflexes/acrobatics, he can dodge or avoid any of Loki's ranged attacks. And force tk can allow him to ragdoll Loki as he pleases, keeping him from getting close.
And let's say his saber can't cut through Loki's flesh. Sidious can still use force pull to disarm him and use his own weapon against him. If he can manage to use its more exotic functions, he can blast Loki until he is KO'd. If he can't, it is still a spear with a sharp, pointy blade at the end. A blade that, based on what we have seen of the weapons Asgardians, Frost Giants, Dark Elves, and their other rivals and enemies use, should be more than capable of hurting Loki.
Sidious is more than intelligent enough to realise, "Hmmmm, my saber isn't working, but maybe his own spear could hurt him." It's a logical deduction to make. People going into combat want the best weapon available to them. And while you can't really prepare much for someone with a massive durability advantage, you can at least ensure that your weapon can harm someone on your own level. So it is logical for Sidious to think that Loki's spear could potentially hurt him.
Loki is probably one of my top 3 favourite MCU characters but, any way you play it, he cannot win, and is likely to get sliced up. Either with a saber (if it can damage him), or with his own spear.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
It doesn't matter, when Loki can't do shit to Sidious. Based on force speed/precog/agility/reflexes/acrobatics, he can dodge or avoid any of Loki's ranged attacks. And force tk can allow him to ragdoll Loki as he pleases, keeping him from getting close.And let's say his saber can't cut through Loki's flesh. Sidious can still use force pull to disarm him and use his own weapon against him. If he can manage to use its more exotic functions, he can blast Loki until he is KO'd. If he can't, it is still a spear with a sharp, pointy blade at the end. A blade that, based on what we have seen of the weapons Asgardians, Frost Giants, Dark Elves, and their other rivals and enemies use, should be more than capable of hurting Loki.
Sidious is more than intelligent enough to realise, "Hmmmm, my saber isn't working, but maybe his own spear could hurt him." It's a logical deduction to make. People going into combat want the best weapon available to them. And while you can't really prepare much for someone with a massive durability advantage, you can at least ensure that your weapon can harm someone on your own level. So it is logical for Sidious to think that Loki's spear could potentially hurt him.
Loki is probably one of my top 3 favourite MCU characters but, any way you play it, he cannot win, and is likely to get sliced up. Either with a saber (if it can damage him), or with his own spear.
Precog didn't really help the Emperor when Vader tossed him down an abyss now, did it?😂
Ok, good luck with that. First of all prove that Sidious is capable of wielding an object that is empowered by an Infinity Stone. Once you've done so, disprove the fact that Loki's scepter can function even when it isn't being wielded by him, as evidenced by how it was messing up the minds of all the heroes on board the Helicarrier.
Loki has illusions, teleportation, can shoot blasts that easily toss cars in midair, is stronger, has better reflexes, superior healing factor, is older and more experienced combatabt than Sidious etc.
This thread belongs to Loki.
IDK about his Clone Wars feats, but based on the OT and PT, Palps TK should allow him to snag Loki's weapon from him and kill him with it. IDK if Loki's illusions will work since Jedi/Sith can force-sense people from planets away. Since the force is a ubiquitous quantum field, there's no way Loki can use his reflexes to dodge it.
Palp wins 7/10
Originally posted by Epicurus
His agility is nowhere near Loki's, who can easily catch high-tech arrow shot at him by an above-Olympic-level archer like Hawkeye.
Did you even watch the Clone Wars clip of him schooling Maul and Savage with utter ease? This isn't slow looking RotS Sidious. This is Clone Wars Sidious, who, based on those feats, is faster and more agile than Loki.
Originally posted by Epicurus
Precog didn't really help the Emperor when Vader tossed him down an abyss now, did it?😂
Sidious was being an arrogant ****, letting himself be caught off guard but another force user, while torturing Luke. This is a 1 on 1 fight. His attention is going to be focused on Loki alone.
Originally posted by Epicurus
Ok, good luck with that. First of all prove that Sidious is capable of wielding an object that is empowered by an Infinity Stone. Once you've done so, disprove the fact that Loki's scepter can function even when it isn't being wielded by him, as evidenced by how it was messing up the minds of all the heroes on board the Helicarrier.
Firstly, I said IF he can manage to use the more exotic abilities of the staff he can blast him. Whether he can or cannot is speculation. But, like I said, it is still a spear, first and foremost. And considering Black Widow could wield it to close the portal at the end of Avengers, I see no reason why Sidious can't use it to stab or slash Loki.
Originally posted by Epicurus
Loki has illusions, teleportation, can shoot blasts that easily toss cars in midair, is stronger, has better reflexes, superior healing factor, is older and more experienced combatabt than Sidious etc.
Blasts that are useless if he gets disarmed via force tk. Strength that is meaningless if he can't get close to Sidious, considering Sidious can just force push him away whenever he wishes. Better reflexes is highly debatable, considering what Sidious has shown himself capable of. And a healing factor that doesn't help if he gets his throat slit open. And it is doubtful his illusions will work on a Sith of Sidious' callibre.
So tell me, what is Loki going to do if Sidious disarms him of his weapon in the opening moments of the match? And then proceeds to tk throw him around at his leisure? Or tortures him with force lighting? How is he going to mount any kind of offensive when he can't even get near Sidious, unless Sidious lets him?
Everyone is discussing if Sidious can harm Loki. Lets say he can. Sidious is a beast.
No one is even giving Loki a chance to touch Sidious. Can Sidious survive any attack from Loki?
I know people will say Sidious will be untouchable and what not(debatable), but in the event Loki lands a blow , what durabilty does Sidious have to indicate he can take any attack from Loki?
Loki would not have died getting thrown by luke like that.
Originally posted by StealthRanger
Loki wouldn't have died from being thrown into a reactor that generates moar power in 24 hours then the sun does every 7000 years?lol
Anyways, force users can survive force attacks from eachother, so durability goodies. Not sure if it means Loki can't harm him or not but there you go
In the movies even strong Jedis have been killed by blasters , explosions, being close to explosions, etc. Im sure a number of Lokis asgaurdian level attacks can harm Sidious.
Im going assume that reactor stat is from the EU so it doesnt mean much.
Im sure both can harm each other. That is not what im trying to say.
All i am trying to say here is that I think Sidious would be in more trouble if Loki lands a blow than if Sidious lands a blow on Loki. Based on durability feats.
Originally posted by Inhuman
All i am trying to say here is that I think Sidious would be in more trouble if Loki lands a blow than if Sidious lands a blow on Loki. Based on durability feats.
Well, depends on what they are using to land said blow. For example, if either of them knocks the other one into a wall or something, the impact will hurt Sidious a lot more than it would Loki. But if either slices the other one's throat open, for example, it's game over either way. Basically, IF Loki could connect, he could potentially one-shot Sidious. But, based on their speed, agility and powersets, I don't see Loki connecting any of his attacks.
And considering Sidious can force push Loki whenever he gets close, or ragdoll him all over the place, and also potentially disarm him via force tk, and stab him with his own weapon, the edge here goes to Sidious.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
And considering Sidious can force push Loki whenever he gets close, or ragdoll him all over the place, and also potentially disarm him via force tk, and stab him with his own weapon, the edge here goes to Sidious.
Well yes Sidious can use all those abilities on Loki. Understandable.
But we have to assume Loki will also use all his tricks abilities. Sidious can try to Force and saber rape Loki but it will most likely be an illusion. Thats how Loki fights.
And I dont buy that Lokis illusions wont work on Sidious because they even tricked ODIN.
So I think its fair to say that if Sidious's force attacks and such will work on Loki, its fair to also say Lokis bag of tricks can work on Sidious. Loki has also shown TK.
I know Sidous will be VERY hard to touch. I can also say Loki could mind fuq sidious with a bunch of illusions that even tricked ODIN, making him pretty untouchable too.
So like I said assuming they both fight using all thier abilities, I dont see how any of them would be untouchable to the other. But I do see Sidious being affected by any of Loki attacks more than Loki to sidious's attack.
Death blows are a different story, but that is something both can deliver. Not just exclusive to one person.
Also if we are assuming one guy is untouchable then why even make this thread?
Just close it already then.
Im just making a point that its not entierly impossible for Loki to land a blow on sidiouos, AND IF he does then Sidious is in serious trouble because of his durability.
Originally posted by Inhuman
Well yes Sidious can use all those abilities on Loki. Understandable.
But we have to assume Loki will also use all his tricks abilities. Sidious can try to Force and saber rape Loki but it will most likely be an illusion. Thats how Loki fights.
And I dont buy that Lokis illusions wont work on Sidious because they even tricked ODIN.
So I think its fair to say that if Sidious's force attacks and such will work on Loki, its fair to also say Lokis bag of tricks can work on Sidious. Loki has also shown TK.
Yes, but those are also the same illusions Thor was able to see through in the 2nd film. And Thor has never displayed any kind of telepathic abilities of his own. Sidious was able to cloud the precog of the entire Jedi order, and detect that Vader was in danger, while in another solar system. So his senses should be able to tell him that something is off, if Loki uses his illusions in battle. Fact is, people have shown the ability to see through Loki's tricks. Only other force users have been capable of countering things like force tk. And Loki has displayed some kind of short range magical tk burst while in his cell but, given that he never ever uses it in combat, I assume that it isn't very powerful. Definitely not on the level of a Sith Lord.
Originally posted by Inhuman
I know Sidous will be VERY hard to touch. I can also say Loki could mind fuq sidious with a bunch of illusions that even tricked ODIN, making him pretty untouchable too.
So like I said assuming they both fight using all thier abilities, I dont see how any of them would be untouchable to the other. But I do see Sidious being affected by any of Loki attacks more than Loki to sidious's attack.
See the point about Thor also seeing through Loki's illusions. And those illusions are pretty flimsy, to be honest. Thor disposed of the army of illusion Lokis, at the end of the first Thor movie, with relative ease. Force tk bursts or spamming force lighting should do the same. And force user senses should help Sidious here as well. Their precog/danger sense isn't limited to deflecting blaster bolts. For example, Anakin was able to detect an assassination attempt on Padme, while in a different room. So if not allow him to see directly through Loki's illusions, his precog should at least allow him to detect where the real danger is coming from.
Originally posted by Inhuman
Death blows are a different story, but that is something both can deliver. Not just exclusive to one person.
Never said it is exclusive. Like I said, if Loki can land a solid hit, it would probably either cripple or kill Sidious. But landing that hit is the problem.
Originally posted by Inhuman
Also if we are assuming one guy is untouchable then why even make this thread?
Just close it already then.
Im just making a point that its not entierly impossible for Loki to land a blow on sidiouos, AND IF he does then Sidious is in serious trouble because of his durability.
Well, you have to ask the thread starter that. I just personally don't see Loki being able to overcome Sidious' tk and other force powers, in order to get hits in.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Did you even watch the Clone Wars clip of him schooling Maul and Savage with utter ease? This isn't slow looking RotS Sidious. This is Clone Wars Sidious, who, based on those feats, is faster and more agile than Loki.Sidious was being an arrogant ****, letting himself be caught off guard but another [B]force user
, while torturing Luke. This is a 1 on 1 fight. His attention is going to be focused on Loki alone.Firstly, I said IF he can manage to use the more exotic abilities of the staff he can blast him. Whether he can or cannot is speculation. But, like I said, it is still a spear, first and foremost. And considering Black Widow could wield it to close the portal at the end of Avengers, I see no reason why Sidious can't use it to stab or slash Loki.
Blasts that are useless if he gets disarmed via force tk. Strength that is meaningless if he can't get close to Sidious, considering Sidious can just force push him away whenever he wishes. Better reflexes is highly debatable, considering what Sidious has shown himself capable of. And a healing factor that doesn't help if he gets his throat slit open. And it is doubtful his illusions will work on a Sith of Sidious' callibre.
So tell me, what is Loki going to do if Sidious disarms him of his weapon in the opening moments of the match? And then proceeds to tk throw him around at his leisure? Or tortures him with force lighting? How is he going to mount any kind of offensive when he can't even get near Sidious, unless Sidious lets him? [/B]
Lol, tell me again how exactly did a crippled, and beaten up Vader somehow use the Force to undo Sidious' precog? Or are you making shit up as you go along?
There are no "ifs" or "buts" here. The spear is empowered by an Infinity Stone(Mind Gem). Loki absolutely can use its abilities, since ya know...he was shown doing it in the Avengers. But I guess I give you too much credit to actually remember detailed scenes from the movie instead of ranting on shit you make up as you go along. Lol, Selvig specifically built the safety to cut their power source. The energy from the Sceptre was the same as the Tesseract(since they are both Infinity Stones after all). That's why BW was able to close it. She didn't utilize the sceptre's exotic powers.
Then he'll just proceed to beat the shit out of Sidious. Yes he can get close, since he's faster than him. Better reflexes isn't debatable at all. You have to prove whether Sidious' tk is as powerful as Hulk's strength, to be able to put the kind of damage on Loki to put him out of commission.
What will Sidious do once the sceptre has him under mind control, or if Loki uses doppelganger projections? The sceptre's versatility more than makes up for Loki's lack of, and in terms of physical stats Loki completely outclasses Sidious. This fight is Loki's.
Originally posted by Epicurus
Are you f*cking kidding me? That clip doesn't indicate, in any manner whatsoever, that Sidious edges out Loki's reflexes.
I am comparing the speed at which both are shown fighting and reacting to opponents in combat. Sidious, fighting two people at once (and judging from him laughing and smiling throughout most of the fight, with relative ease), moves and reacts just as fast, if not faster, than Loki has done in any of his own fights.
Originally posted by Epicurus
Lol, tell me again how exactly did a crippled, and beaten up Vader somehow use the Force to undo Sidious' precog? Or are you making shit up as you go along?
Did you not read what I said previously. There is a big difference between focusing on an opponent in a one-on-one, direct confrontation, and allowing yourself to get distracted while torturing someone. Force precog has consistently shown itself to help force users survive or detect danger during battle. Danger that they couldn't have detected with just their normal senses. I take the more consistent showings as the average.
Originally posted by Epicurus
There are no "ifs" or "buts" here. The spear is empowered by an Infinity Stone(Mind Gem). Loki absolutely can use its abilities, since ya know...he was shown doing it in the Avengers. But I guess I give you too much credit to actually remember detailed scenes from the movie instead of ranting on shit you make up as you go along. Lol, Selvig specifically built the safety to cut their power source. The energy from the Sceptre was the same as the Tesseract(since they are both Infinity Stones after all). That's why BW was able to close it. She didn't utilize the sceptre's exotic powers.
Are you sh*tt*ng me? Did you not read what I have said. I said him being able to use its exotic functions was SPECULATION. Until we see him actually try to use it (which will never happen, obviously), no one can claim to the outcome. But as I also said, it is a spear. Big, pointy, sharp, deadly blade at the end. I never said Black Widow used its exotic powers. Nor did I even imply it. I meant that if she can pick it up and make a stabbing motion with it, then Sidious can use the blade at the end to stab Loki with it (Not an exotic power of the spear AT ALL).
Originally posted by Epicurus
Then he'll just proceed to beat the shit out of Sidious. Yes he can get close, since he's faster than him. Better reflexes isn't debatable at all. You have to prove whether Sidious' tk is as powerful as Hulk's strength, to be able to put the kind of damage on Loki to put him out of commission.
Ok so tell me how does he get close to "beat the shit out of Sidious" when Sidious can lift him up and throw him back with a wave of his hand? Or hold him in place? Based on the fact that he could lift and force choke two people at once without even being in the same room as them, he could force lift Loki and his spear at the same time and stab him with it. Because, you still haven't provided any kind of way for Loki to contend with force push, pull, lift etc. And if you are going to to suggest the Loki can speed blits and kill Sidious before Sidious can move his hand, you have to prove it. And while you are at it, prove that his overall movements are faster? Or that his reflexes are better than force user reflexes? I have presented evidence as to why I think Sidious is at least of comparable speed. Your turn.
And you are purposefully ignoring the point I keep bringing up over and over. I never said that ragdolling him alone would be enough to beat him. I said that it could stun or disrupt him long enough to leave him vulnerable for a KO/fatal hit. Getting force lifted and thrown into a wall might not do any serious damage to Loki, but it will leave him open to an attack that could. But go ahead, keep ignoring that.
Originally posted by Epicurus
What will Sidious do once the sceptre has him under mind control, or if Loki uses doppelganger projections? The sceptre's versatility more than makes up for Loki's lack of, and in terms of physical stats Loki completely outclasses Sidious. This fight is Loki's.
Firstly, tell me how Loki is going to get Sidious into a position to where he can do his mind magic thing when Sidious can fling him back, with the force, whenever he pleases. Or prove that he is fast enough to get him into that position, to begin with. Then prove that the scepter's mind control powers will work on a being like Sidious, with his own abilities and powerset. And I have already addressed the illusions in another post to someone else.
Basically, once you can tell me how Loki is going to overcome being force lifted (where physical strength means nothing) and flung around every time Sidious feels like it, then there is an argument for Loki beating Sidious.
Originally posted by Inhuman
Also alot of jedi were killed by blasters. Mix energy blasts with illusions and such.
just pointing it out. not saying that Loki will win.
Too many opponents seem to be the Jedi's weakspot. They do better against 1 powerful opponent.
That being said Sidious took out 3 Jedi Masters pretty quickly, so I'm not sure how many opponents it would take to down him.
Anyway I personally think Sidious would win, but it wouldn't be easy. Sidious will sense Loki in the Force so he won't be tricked by any illusions. Whilst a Lightsaber will cut Loki but not outright decapitate him in 1 Swing. The guy does have monstrous durability.