Loki vs Darth Sidious

Barring durability and perhaps strength, I don’t recall any feat of Loki’s that suggests physical superiority over Darth Sidious, especially if we include the latter’s feats from Star Wars: The Clone Wars. Sidious appears to be the faster, more agile, and certainly more acrobatic fighter. I don’t imagine Hawkeye’s arrows would present a problem for Sidious, especially when you factor in his superhuman senses, precognition, clairvoyance, etc. His displays of brute strength are comparatively infrequent, but he’s strong enough to fend off and overpower Savage Opress and Darth Maul—each of whom are superhumanly strong. (Based on Opress’s feats, I don’t think it would be hyperbolic to put him at least on Captain America’s level.)

Durability is distinctly in Loki’s favor, though Sidious is durable enough to casually withstand kicks from Maul’s cyborg legs and physical blows from Opress—when similar blows have outright killed lesser Jedi. I have no reason to believe Sidious could withstand a concentrated blast from Gungnir, but I don’t think one would ever land.

The Force, in the end, is too great an advantage. Sidious can throttle, ragdoll, and hurl Loki at his leisure, to say nothing of whatever battlefield debris could be utilized.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Barring durability and perhaps strength, I don’t recall any feat of Loki’s that suggests physical superiority over Darth Sidious, especially if we include the latter’s feats from Star Wars: The Clone Wars. Sidious appears to be the faster, more agile, and certainly more acrobatic fighter. I don’t imagine Hawkeye’s arrows would present a problem for Sidious, especially when you factor in his superhuman senses, precognition, clairvoyance, etc. His displays of brute strength are comparatively infrequent, but he’s strong enough to fend off and overpower Savage Opress and Darth Maul—each of whom are superhumanly strong. (Based on Opress’s feats, I don’t think it would be hyperbolic to put him at least on Captain America’s level.)

Durability is distinctly in Loki’s favor, though Sidious is durable enough to casually withstand kicks from Maul’s cyborg legs and physical blows from Opress—when similar blows have outright killed lesser Jedi. I have no reason to believe Sidious could withstand a concentrated blast from Gungnir, but I don’t think one would ever land.

The Force, in the end, is too great an advantage. Sidious can throttle, ragdoll, and hurl Loki at his leisure, to say nothing of whatever battlefield debris could be utilized.

There is nothing he force can do to hurt Loki. He is two durable and he can teleport, He can turn invisible, he can make Palp his puppet with the infinity gem. 🙂

Ashoka and some younglings were able to level a cliff face easily

Palpatine>>Anakin/Obi-Wan>>>

How would Sidious not harm Loki with the force now?

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I am comparing the speed at which both are shown fighting and reacting to opponents in combat. Sidious, fighting two people at once (and judging from him laughing and smiling throughout most of the fight, with relative ease), moves and reacts just as fast, if not faster, than Loki has done in any of his own fights.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Did you not read what I said previously.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Are you sh*tt*ng me? Did you not read what I have said. I said him being able to use its exotic functions was SPECULATION.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Until we see him actually try to use it (which will never happen, obviously), no one can claim to the outcome.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller

But as I also said, it is a spear. Big, pointy, sharp, deadly blade at the end. I never said Black Widow used its exotic powers. Nor did I even imply it. I meant that if she can pick it up and make a stabbing motion with it, then Sidious can use the blade at the end to stab Loki with it (Not an exotic power of the spear AT ALL).

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller

Ok so tell me how does he get close to "beat the shit out of Sidious"

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller

And you are purposefully ignoring the point I keep bringing up over and over.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I never said that ragdolling him alone would be enough to beat him. I said that it could stun or disrupt him long enough to leave him vulnerable for a KO/fatal hit. Getting force lifted and thrown into a wall might not do any serious damage to Loki, but it will leave him open to an attack that could.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller

Firstly, tell me how Loki is going to get Sidious into a position to where he can do his mind magic thing when Sidious can fling him back, with the force, whenever he pleases. Or prove that he is fast enough to get him into that position, to begin with. Then prove that the scepter's mind control powers will work on a being like Sidious, with his own abilities and powerset. And I have already addressed the illusions in another post to someone else.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller

Basically, once you can tell me how Loki is going to overcome being force lifted (where physical strength means nothing) and flung around every time Sidious feels like it, then there is an argument for Loki beating Sidious.

Why do you people keep saying that the spear has the Mind Gem in it when that is purely speculation at this point? Fact is that movie Loki would get owned by Sidious, he's actually presented as a bit of a joke in the MCU if you ask me. Gets outsmarted and beat up or at least shown up by just about everybody, especially in Avengers. His only way of levelling the playing field is through planning and trickery and Sidious is better at both, the Force will allow him to see through any sort of trick that Loki could conjure.

Originally posted by Epicurus
No he doesn't. Loki was literally shown to possess superhuman reflexes. Heck, in Agents of SHIELD, a lower-level Asgardian has superstrength and speed.

And Sidious has shown speed and reflexes at least as fast Loki has, in terms of direct combat. And what do you call deflecting blaster bolts? Human level reflexes?

But I get it. You want to use a low end showing, outside of direct combat, for Sidious (when Vader betrayed him), and a high end feat for Loki, and use those as a means of comparing their relative combat speed. Instead of using the more consistent showings for both. Because that is totally fair and objective.

Originally posted by Epicurus

I read it sure, and it was a load of baloney. I have rarely seen any of this precog nonsense which you Starwars fanboy spout about in actual combat scenes from the movies themselves.

So you haven't watched any Star Wars films or the Clone Wars properly? Good to know. Every time a force user deflects a blaster bolt is an example of force precog, senses and reflexes. But go ahead and ignore that and claim that force precognition doesn't actually exist.

Originally posted by Epicurus

I did, and it's an outright lie, since we do actually SEE him use the f*cking thing.

I am talking about SIDIOUS, genius. How the hell can you not follow that? I have been talking about SIDIOUS this whole time. You have to have the comprehension skills of a 5-year-old to not get that. I have specifically talked about speculating whether SIDIOUS can use the more exotic functions of the spear (and why I said it would obviously never happen, because they are 2 separate universes), but pointed out that even if SIDIOUS cannot use the more exotic functions, he can still use it as a spear with a blade at the end, if he happens to disarm Loki via force TK.

Originally posted by Epicurus

Did you watch some special edition version of the film which left out large segments of the film? Because we see him use it to mind-control his victims, we see him use it to create mirage copies, we see him use it to barricade the civilian population in Germany, we see him use its energy blasts etc.

See above about your lack of comprehension skills.

Originally posted by Epicurus

He can try that tactic all he wants, Loki won't be killed by it anyways, and the spear will f*ck him up as it was doing so to the Avengers in the Hellicarrier.😂

Prove that Loki can survive a lethal strike by the spear. You accuse me of making things up and twisting things, but now you are making completely baseless assumptions. And LOL at trying to claim that because the spear made the Avengers close to it agitated that it will mind **** Sidious.

Originally posted by Epicurus

With his fists.👆

You still haven't told me how he is going to overcome force tk. This is the point I am constantly bringing up, and you are ignoring.

Originally posted by Epicurus

No, that's your MO. Along with lying and twisting sh1t out of context, it seems.

I haven't lied or made anything up. You are just incapable of reading properly it seems. And you ARE ignoring the force tk point.

Originally posted by Epicurus

Wrong, it will do no damage to Loki. Loki withstood getting pummeled by both Thor and Hulk in the Avengers, what makes you think Sidious can do any worse to him?

Are you stupid? Or do you just roughly scan what I write, without actually making sure of what you are reading? I never made the claim that it will definitively hurt him. But acting as though being lifted and thrown about won't have an adverse effect on his rhythm and defenses, or possibly leave him open, in combat is being completely biased.

Originally posted by Epicurus

Trick him with a copy, and then get in close enough. Loki can also go intangible as seen when he tricked Thor into the anti-Hulk cage. Loki's versatility more than matches up to Sidious, and he completely outclasses him physically.

Force users can sense things and people via the force. There have been examples of Jedi training blindfolded and relying on the force to see where the danger is coming from. There are examples of force users sensing danger over great distances. Force users have active precog, which is showcased throughout all the films, and the Clone Wars series, but we have established that you haven't watched any of it properly. And he didn't go intangible. It was an illusion, just like the ones he uses throughout all the films.

And in strength and durability Loki has the advantage. You are the only one who believes he completely outclasses Sidious in speed, agility and reflexes. Which you still haven't provided evidence for.

Originally posted by Epicurus

Loki wins. Deal with it, fanboy.

Loki loses. He still doesn't have an answer for force tk, which you conveniently keep ignoring. Based on their consistent combat showings, he isn't faster or more agile. And this Mind Gem business is pure speculation.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
There is nothing he force can do to hurt Loki.

😬

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aE_CVWMWK74#t=371

^ Maul alone is able to telekinetically drag a large Jedi shuttle without visible effort. Savage has similar TK feats to his name.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-7hBZNsPnyg#t=106

^ Here, Sidious hurls and pins both of them to the throne room windows. You'll note that the Zabraks are tensing, squirming, and struggling to throw off his hold, damaging the window further in their efforts. And yet Sidious is able to restrain them casually, indicating he's vastly above their combined weight class as a telekinetic.

Sidious will be able to ragdoll Loki as utterly as the Hulk.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
He is two durable and he can teleport, He can turn invisible, he can make Palp his puppet with the infinity gem. 🙂

We have no reason to believe that Loki can enthrall Sidious with his staff (unless, of course, he manages to touch him with it). Dooku was able to fend off three invisible lightsaber-wielding Nightsisters while blinded in Star Wars: The Clone Wars thanks to precognition, clairvoyance, and superhuman senses, so I'm not sure why Sidious, Dooku's superior in all things, would be unable to do so against Loki. And I don't remember Loki teleporting; when did he do that?

I'll concede that Loki probably has an edge in raw strength and durability, but that's it. Sidious is, at the very least, in Loki's league in terms of speed, reflexes, and agility. More importantly, he's an extremely powerful telekinetic. Sidious will reach out, snare Loki with the Force, and beat him into utter submission.

Tried to embed the youtube videos with the timestamps, but couldn't get the formatting right. The links should work, though.

Your own videos you posted show Sideious barely doing any damage to Maul. Yes he hurls them against a wall. It does not even hurt them. How will that hurt Loki. I see nothing of his enemies being turned into a rag doll. What are you trying to suggest that Sideious will fight out of character and just keep trying to force push Loki around? If so he can just teleport away, into a multi projection Hologram and then touch Sidious with the mind gem and its game over.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Your own videos you posted show Sideious barely doing any damage to Maul. Yes he hurls them against a wall. It does not even hurt them. How will that hurt Loki

Because Maul has natural Force defenses. Loki does not.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Because Maul has natural Force defenses. Loki does not.

True but what about his godly durability and the things he has survived? Has Maul survived worse? Unless Sideious is sitting there tossing ships on him, I don't see the real damage to Loki if you know what I mean.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
True but what about his godly durability and the things he has survived? Has Maul survived worse? Unless Sideious is sitting there tossing ships on him, I don't see the real damage to Loki if you know what I mean.

True but don't underestimate how much of a wallop a Force Blast has.

A Force Blast from Maul caused a cave in. A Force Lightning Blast from Dooku caused an explosion on the cave wall. A force Blast from Mace Windu completely crushed several droids including 2 of those Destroyer Droids. And Sidious's Force powers are above all of those Jedi/Sith.

But yeah Loki is mad durable, so I can imagine it would take some time to beat him down. I also think a Lightsaber would be capable of cutting him, so enough slashes will do him damage Imo.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
True but don't underestimate how much of a wallop a Force Blast has.

I guess I am having trouble coming to terms with this because it does not appear to be over the blast of the bi frost explosion which didn't even hurt him. Truth be told, comparing cross genera should be in All versus, I feel they are misplaced here. People have different of opinions.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
I guess I am having trouble coming to terms with this because it does not appear to be over the blast of the bi frost explosion which didn't even hurt him. Truth be told, comparing cross genera should be in All versus, I feel they are misplaced here. People have different of opinions.

There is that, but then Iron Man's repulsor blast knocks him down.

I don't know, I'd have to think about it and watch all the movies again to decide if anything a Jedi has can hurt Loki. I'm guessing a Lightsaber should cut him.

I'm also guessing a Force choke should choke on his insides should effect him in some way.

But like you said with the cross genre thing these things are hard to determine.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Your own videos you posted show Sideious barely doing any damage to Maul. Yes he hurls them against a wall. It does not even hurt them.

😬

Did you not hear the insidious cackling? Sidious wasn't trying to kill them nor was he trying to hurt them with the Force push. He restrains them effortlessly and then voluntarily releases them, allowing them to arm themselves and engage him, to illustrate the point: He's the cat, they're mice, and he's going to play with his food before he eats it.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
How will that hurt Loki. I see nothing of his enemies being turned into a rag doll. What are you trying to suggest that Sideious will fight out of character and just keep trying to force push Loki around? If so he can just teleport away, into a multi projection Hologram and then touch Sidious with the mind gem and its game over.

Maul and Savage ragdoll their enemies and can effortlessly move large starships. Sidious effortlessly restrains both of them at the same time despite their visible concerted effort to free themselves. It follows, then, that Sidious has the means to ragdoll people as he sees fit. The fact that he didn't squish Maul and Savage into paste because he was actively courting battle doesn't change the very clearly communicated fact that he could have had he wanted to.

And debating "in-character" as the phrase is often used around here is pretty stupid. We debate what a character is capable of doing to another character when both are seeking to incapacitate or kill. We don't script fights or rely on narrative devices and tropes like Plot Induced Stupidity or whatnot. We might as well say that Loki will always lose a fight to Phil Coulson because Loki is prone to arrogant monologues, taunts, and Hannibal Lectures that often enable the heroes to get the better of him.

Loki has shown no defense against the Force and doesn't have the feats to suggest the strength or durability to withstand Sidious telekinetically beating him into any and every hard surface in the vicinity.

Physically, Sidious has the means to defend himself by way of comparable speed, agility, reflexes, and impressive strength and durability in his own right. But metaphysically? He can relieve Loki of his scepter at his leisure and beat him into submission.

Now, I'll ask you again: when did Loki teleport? I don't remember it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
😬

Did you not hear the insidious cackling? Sidious wasn't trying to kill them nor was he trying to hurt them with the Force push. He restrains them effortlessly and then voluntarily releases them, allowing them to arm themselves and engage him, to illustrate the point: He's the cat, they're mice, and he's going to play with his food before he eats it.

Maul and Savage ragdoll their enemies and can effortlessly move large starships. Sidious effortlessly restrains both of them at the same time despite their visible concerted effort to free themselves. It follows, then, that Sidious has the means to ragdoll people as he sees fit. The fact that he didn't squish Maul and Savage into paste because he was actively courting battle doesn't change the very clearly communicated fact that he could have had he wanted to.

And debating "in-character" as the phrase is often used around here is pretty stupid. We debate what a character is capable of doing to another character when both are seeking to incapacitate or kill. We don't script fights or rely on narrative devices and tropes like Plot Induced Stupidity or whatnot. We might as well say that Loki will always lose a fight to Phil Coulson because Loki is prone to arrogant monologues, taunts, and Hannibal Lectures that often enable the heroes to get the better of him.

Loki has shown no defense against the Force and doesn't have the feats to suggest the strength or durability to withstand Sidious telekinetically beating him into any and every hard surface in the vicinity.

Physically, Sidious has the means to defend himself by way of comparable speed, agility, reflexes, and impressive strength and durability in his own right. But metaphysically? He can relieve Loki of his scepter at his leisure and beat him into submission.

Now, I'll ask you again: when did Loki teleport? I don't remember it.

He teleported into Shieds base when Thor was prisoner. He also Teleported out of the chamber he was in on the helli carrier and tricked Thor into coming in.

That was an astral projection, not a literal physical manifestation and the second example was an illusion. He's never teleported.

This thread is almost as funny as the Thor Vs Palpatine thread.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That was an astral projection, not a literal physical manifestation and the second example was an illusion. He's never teleported.

He teleported out of the holding cell.

How did he get out of the holding cell to set the trap for Thor. He teleported out, opened it up made an illusion of him standing in the door, Thor jumped on him to push him back in and he was trapped. It was a teleport.

No, it wasn't. Rewatch the scene: there's a merc present when Loki tricks Thor. The merc released Loki, Loki sets up an illusion, Thor tackles it and is trapped inside. No teleportation implied or required.