Ferguson Riots

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon

OT:
Yes, it's true there is still racism towards black people. But racism is not exclusive to America.
I heard it's even worse in European countries, like UK or Germany. I have different cousins living in both countries. They say foreigners (Asians and Blacks especially) are not treated well by the locals.

And I've known black people in Germany who felt much less uncomfortable than they did in America, so I guess is comes down to personal experience.

Europe doesn't have the same deep seated racial (at least in terms of black vs. white) tension that America has, but for that same reason racism tends to be more overtly expressed because whereas in America we're very conscious of overt racism and automatically reject it and often times forbid it when it comes our way, in Europe they often treat bigots and far right extremists as "angry kids who just need to get a hobby"

If your friends lived in big cities, they might have been harrassed by skinheads and Neo-Nazis, something that doesn't happen in American cities, but I'm pretty sure if they got killed by those skinheads or by police, the perpetrators would face swift justice, none of that grand jury bullshit. how much that has to do with race and how much it has to do with the nature of our justice system (the law is always right in a lot of cases) is hard to say.

There's an interesting bit at the beginning of Claude McKay's novel Home to Harlem where the main character, Jake, reflects on the kind of racism he faces on a boat crewed by English people. The English call him 'Darkie' and seem to treat him dismissively, but he much prefers their attitudes over those of even the nicest white men in America, because English people don't fear, hate, or distrust him because they never grew up with black people or with much of an idea of black people other than curiosities who lived far away.

Originally posted by dadudemon
At first, I was agreeing with you. Then I realized you were wrong on both accounts once I thought about it.

You would be correct if you said, "Lol, people don't choose to be born into poverty."

People definitely definitely choose to be thuggish. Once you start leaning so far into libtarded ideas such as, "Poor people can't help but be criminals!!!", you commit the same type of racism that the old-timey KKK had for black people. That racism being that they are too dumb to choose for themselves and they have a natural disposition towards violence, stealing, and lying. If you want to pretend this conversation is about poor people rather than black people, then you're committing classism. But we both know that we're talking specifically about black people so classism is out.

You need to amend your thinking quite drastically. People do have a choice on whether or not to be criminal thugs. Until thinking like yours disappears, we are going to continue to have racism against black people and other poor minority groups. Why would you think it is okay to expect criminal behavior from black people? Why do you not see that as racism? Maybe you do think that and I'm stupid for even responding.

I don't find it funny. I find perspectives like your sad.

strictly speaking of course i agree that personal responsibility remains a virtue and a relevant factor in discussing why and how people turn out the way they are. of course i think thugs should be held accountable for their crimes regardless of why they are thugs. and of course i agree that it is condescending to suggest that black people or any other ethnic minority 'can't help' but become thugs. of course people should always be encouraged to make the right decisions regardless of the circumstances they face.

that being said.. at the end of the day you have to account for statistics. you have to account for the differences in the frequency at which certain demographics become thugs. you can say it's just in their nature or you can say it's a product of their environment. you do have to explain it though if you really want to be honest. so i'd like to hear the non-racist explanation that doesn't rely on historical injustice as the root cause. even if you talk about the mentality, as delph did and others have in this thread, you're still left with the question of where the mentality comes from and why it appears more frequently in some demographics than others.

i don't say it's strictly a black thing or a latino thing etc. i have known white people with the same kind of mentality who grew up in a similar environment. but statistically speaking they are less likely to grow up in such an environment.

i have a peruvian friend in florida who honestly has a bit of the same thuggish mentality. he's not a gangster or anything, he actually holds down a real job. but he has that "you can't question how hard i am without me reacting violently out of pride" mentality that ****s a lot of people up. he told me one story about how someone at a movie theatre was staring at his brother in the wrong way and he went up to them and said what the **** are you looking at, cause basically he takes it as disrespect. and the guy flashed a gun at him and said he was a blood, and to move on or else. and when he told me this story he expected me to side with him, but i was like "you're an idiot, man. why would you seek out confrontations like that and risk getting killed over some petty bullshit?"

me personally, i've never been the gangster type cause i'm not a tough guy and i basically know it. i wouldn't fare well in prison and i'm not trying to test that out. i've been in enough fights to know that lifestyle isn't for me. i mean i've done plenty of stuff i'm not proud of, i won't lie, but the gang/thug life never appealed to me because i basically know what would most likely happen to me. but then again i've committed crimes in the past (years ago... my only crime these days is downloading shit) that i wouldn't have if i grew up around different types of people. some other people respond differently and basically fall into the trap of being a thug and yea they have to be held accountable but it's not hard for me to see how they respond that way, especially if they have ****ed up priorities.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
"muh bootstraps"

Translation: "I'm ignoring other ethnicities that have been able to create a literal paradigm shift in their SES simply because I want to continue to be racist against black people."

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Fundamental lack of knowledge on sociology and how socio-economic status influence peoples' dispositions ITT.

I agree. You're quite ignorant. You should read up. Pay closer attention to History and the analyses that result from that history. You'll get a better understanding of social mobility and SES.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
It's nice not being the Uncle Ruckus in a thread for once, though.

Originally posted by red g jacks
i agree and disagree with your rhetoric at the same time

strictly speaking of course i agree that personal responsibility remains a virtue and a relevant factor in discussing why and how people turn out the way they are. of course i think thugs should be held accountable for their crimes regardless of why they are thugs. and of course i agree that it is condescending to suggest that black people or any other ethnic minority 'can't help' but become thugs. of course people should always be encouraged to make the right decisions regardless of the circumstances they face.

that being said.. at the end of the day you have to account for statistics. you have to account for the differences in the frequency at which certain demographics become thugs. you can say it's just in their nature or you can say it's a product of their environment. you do have to explain it though if you really want to be honest. so i'd like to hear the non-racist explanation that doesn't rely on historical injustice as the root cause. even if you talk about the mentality, as delph did and others have in this thread, you're still left with the question of where the mentality comes from and why it appears more frequently in some demographics than others.

I definitely agree that it is more difficult to break the cycle of poverty without a positive role-model/models. I don't think this is a "African American" problem, though. As I've stated, I think it is a "poor people" problem. Based on how you've worded things, I think you agree.

Originally posted by red g jacks
i don't say it's strictly a black thing or a latino thing etc. i have known white people with the same kind of mentality who grew up in a similar environment. but statistically speaking they are less likely to grow up in such an environment.

That really depends on what "statistic" you're looking at, really. By sheer numbers, they are many more poor white people than poor black people. As a percentage of the whole racial population, there are more poor black people (another way to say that is using the "per capita" number). Also, as I showed earlier, poor white people are just as unlikely to experience social mobility as poor black people when they come from the same places. If we compare apples to apples, there is no difference.

Originally posted by red g jacks
i have a peruvian friend in florida who honestly has a bit of the same thuggish mentality. he's not a gangster or anything, he actually holds down a real job. but he has that "you can't question how hard i am without me reacting violently out of pride" mentality that ****s a lot of people up. he told me one story about how someone at a movie theatre was staring at his brother in the wrong way and he went up to them and said what the **** are you looking at, cause basically he takes it as disrespect. and the guy flashed a gun at him and said he was a blood, and to move on or else. and when he told me this story he expected me to side with him, but i was like "you're an idiot, man. why would you seek out confrontations like that and risk getting killed over some petty bullshit?"

I consider those types to be "douchebags." Perhaps that's too generic. Maybe they are Thugouchebags?

Originally posted by red g jacks
me personally, i've never been the gangster type cause i'm not a tough guy and i basically know it. i wouldn't fare well in prison and i'm not trying to test that out. i've been in enough fights to know that lifestyle isn't for me. i mean i've done plenty of stuff i'm not proud of, i won't lie, but the gang/thug life never appealed to me because i basically know what would most likely happen to me. but then again i've committed crimes in the past (years ago... my only crime these days is downloading shit) that i wouldn't have if i grew up around different types of people. some other people respond differently and basically fall into the trap of being a thug and yea they have to be held accountable but it's not hard for me to see how they respond that way, especially if they have ****ed up priorities.

I don't think most people on KMC would quality as "thuggish." Most people are good people, from my experience.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I definitely agree that it is more difficult to break the cycle of poverty without a positive role-model/models. I don't think this is a "African American" problem, though. As I've stated, I think it is a "poor people" problem. Based on how you've worded things, I think you agree.

while not a black problem specifically, the black problem with police makes the role model problem a lot worse then it could have been on several levels. The likely hood of males getting intro severe trouble of things is higher and when they do get in trouble they often come back worse then before and turn the lack of a role model into a negative role model. The fact that many black people don't trust the police for that reason means the criminals who are there can hold bigger sway since we don't go to the cops for help and it is allowed to grow and fester. With the shit education in a lot of black areas and the fact that many of the current parents are people who were disregarded as kids themselves many kids turn to the streets as their role models and with the police issue this is treated as normal as as the older criminals come out of jail they make these kids like them.

Basically while I agree with the over all thing about just having to work on making things better and taking advantage of things it's not that easy for a mass version of that happen. Many just try to get by and its hard to convince yourself to risk starting all over when it could be even worse then what you already know. Like Delph said we aren't a monolith but I think many black people think we are and want us to be which actually makes these problems worst because it strips the individuals ability to fix problems away.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Translation: "I'm ignoring other ethnicities that have been able to create a literal paradigm shift in their SES simply because I want to continue to be racist against black people."

I should go ahead and mention that the distrust of the police is hardly unique to black people, and in fact was present in Italians as the concept of "Omerta" (IIRC this concept carried over with the Italian immigrants).

Beyond that, I can't comment on how the issues plaguing black Americans relate to the issues that played Italian Americans (nor on how the two reactions to the police might be different).

Originally posted by NemeBro
I should go ahead and mention that the distrust of the police is hardly unique to black people, and in fact was present in Italians as the concept of "Omerta" (IIRC this concept carried over with the Italian immigrants).

Beyond that, I can't comment on how the issues plaguing black Americans relate to the issues that played Italian Americans (nor on how the two reactions to the police might be different).

Well I brought that up in regards to positive role models, not any Italian comparison.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Like white people?

white people = other ethnicities?

You tell me, my son. What are these other groups you speak of that had similar circumstances to blacks in America, and rose above them by the sweat of their brow?

Originally posted by Tzeentch
You tell me, my son. What are these other groups you speak of that had similar circumstances to blacks in America, and rose above them by the sweat of their brow?

There are no ethnicities that faced or face the unique problems of black people in America. That's just a complete lie perpetrated by people with racist agendas and gobbled up by ignorant people.

Yes, it's true that when they first started arriving en masse, Italians were distrusted and ill-treated. It's also true that there were cases of lynchings of Italians.

However that is where the comparison ends. Fact is, Italians have long since been accepted (and I don't think it has much to do with their supposed 'hard work' and more to do with how perceptions of what 'white' means have changed to be more inclusive) while blacks are still marginalized in a lot of ways.

The problems with Italians had less to do with race and more to do with religion. The Irish had the same problem. Polish too. But now because Catholicism is accepted, even a powerful force, in America, so are those ethnic groups.

Originally posted by Bardock42
There are no ethnicities that faced or face the unique problems of black people in America. That's just a complete lie perpetrated by people with racist agendas and gobbled up by ignorant people.

Emphasis mine. This, right here, is bullshit lies. It's actually a very disgusting lie.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Yes, it's true that when they first started arriving en masse, Italians were distrusted and ill-treated. It's also true that there were cases of lynchings of Italians.

However that is where the comparison ends.

This is incorrect. Emphasis mine.

They were relegated to third class cretins (below any other race) and were considered even lower "humanoids" than blacks. In addition to that, they were poorest people in America during that time. Also, they were feared as being all criminals. Additionally, they were not allowed to have many jobs that even blacks could have. Also, they were always given the worst, lowest, and most dangerous jobs "fit for animals." Also, they were not given proper justice in the US Criminal system. Also, they were heavily discriminated against at all levels of government including all the way up to the president o the United States. Also, they were denied access to healthcare and education for simply being born Italian. Also, they were not allowed to marry or court people outside of the Italian community. Also, they were even systematically discriminated against in the religious community, of all communities, because they were Catholic. They were viewed as evil.

There are two other groups of people that faced similar racism: Native Americans and African Americans. Irish Americans experienced the same but not as severely as the Italians.

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
Jewish, Asian, European, and Arabian immigrants.

And more modernly, Latino Americans. Thankfully, the US is a slightly better place so there rise in the SES ladder is not as steep as it was for Italians or Irish.

So, I guess the only question is if you are deliberately racist, or just ignorant.

Originally posted by Bardock42
There are no ethnicities that faced or face the unique problems of black people in America. That's just a complete lie perpetrated by people with racist agendas and gobbled up by ignorant people.

You see, this is what media wants you to believe.

In truth, there's no such thing as "unique problems".
These problems are not confined to any specific race.
But they can be alleviated in one way or another.

The thing is the community (black American community, in this case) have to work together towards a common goal.
Change won't happen in a fortnight. It will take years but things can change for the better, that is only if the community itself wants change to happen in the first place.

It comes back to the mentality again. People view most of them as a violent race because: a) the media portrays them as such, or b) majority accept/embrace the stereotype portrayed by the media.

Now you may ask, how do you alleviate such problems?
There are many solutions that can be presented. Those will have varying results, but at least we can all agree here that something has to change.
It's better than doing nothing and waiting for another incident like this to occur. Protesting, looting, burning down the city won't fix this.

What is being overlooked and I have not seen anywhere is the siege mentality of the cops. Once they are convinced someone has to be taken down, like in NYC and Ferguson, it becomes excessive force in a hurry. Selling loosie cigs without a license is a huge crime? And theft of cigars, must back up quick and block the suspect with the car? Seems a bit too much for such a low and I mean very low level of misconduct and not worth losing the goodwill of the community, which has happened across the USA.

Originally posted by Bardock42
So, I guess the only question is if you are deliberately racist, or just ignorant.

Exhibit A:

Originally posted by dadudemon
There are two other groups of people that faced similar racism: Native Americans and African Americans. Irish Americans experienced the same but not as severely as the Italians.

The better question is why you have such strong and factually incorrect based white guilt? You're not even American nor are you over 70 years old.

The best question would be, "Why do people like Bardock42 think black people in America are dumber than children are are incapable of helping themselves?"

Check this out, see what you're doing:

Me: Stop being racist against black people by pretending they are too weak and dumb to succeed like the rest of society.

You: OMG, you're so racist!

Guess what? All it took was a call to my grandfather. He's a second generation Italian American. Racism was still quite horrible against Italians even back in the 50s. He directly stated that he and his family were treated worse that the blacks in the same area he grew up in. They had to walk to the store and to school in groups of 4 or more or they would get beat down just for being Italian. This is was in America. Black people do not have a monopoly on racism against them. Nor do Italians. I think focusing on History and seeing how other groups were able to improve their situation is helpful to other minorities in the US that are below the population average. The "they are not the same" statements are invalid. They are all similar and none of them are exactly the same.

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
You see, this is what media wants you to believe.

In truth, there's no such thing as "unique problems".
These problems are not confined to any specific race.
But they can be alleviated in one way or another.

Exactly. 👆

I find it silly that people like Bardock42 don't want to allow groups like Italian Americans the right to historical accuracy.

The historical parallels exist and can be useful in finding solutions to current problems, but to treat them as equivalent is misguided and belittles the extent of black America's current trouble. I know you mean well, DDD, but I can't help but get a sense from your posts that you think it's primarily black peoples' own fault that they're not in a better position. Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting your position because I don't want to insult you with a strawman.

Originally posted by dadudemon

This is incorrect. Emphasis mine.

They were relegated to third class cretins (below any other race) and were considered even lower "humanoids" than blacks. In addition to that, they were poorest people in America during that time. Also, they were feared as being all criminals. Additionally, they were not allowed to have many jobs that even blacks could have. Also, they were always given the worst, lowest, and most dangerous jobs "fit for animals." Also, they were not given proper justice in the US Criminal system. Also, they were heavily discriminated against at all levels of government including all the way up to the president o the United States. Also, they were denied access to healthcare and education for simply being born Italian. Also, they were not allowed to marry or court people outside of the Italian community. Also, they were even systematically discriminated against in the religious community, of all communities, because they were Catholic. They were viewed as evil.

I already covered the catholic angle, which I think was more important in explaining early discrimination against Italians than any notion of race (though Italians were considered a separate race from most Europeans). In any case, Italians didn't claw their way to acceptance through some kind grit or determination that blacks lack. Eventually definitions of 'white' changed and became more inclusive and Italians were accepted. Such a thing has never and will never happen to blacks because they exist as the counterpoint to whiteness that gives whiteness its meaning.

Jews are another example of a group who had it probably as bad as Italians did and were distrusted for probably even longer, but (at least Ashkenazi Jews) were 'white enough' to get coopted into the big white family and now no one even thinks of discriminating against Jews, except for racebaiters and Neo-Nazis.

Edit: I don't think socio-economic status is the antidote to racism at all. Historically, and not just in America, Jewish people have risen from poverty to middle and even upper class without losing any of the stigma of being Jewish.

And to quote Killer Mike, regarding rich black people: "Even if you got seven figures, you still a ******."

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
Jewish, Asian, European, and Arabian immigrants.