Originally posted by Omega Vision
The historical parallels exist and can be useful in finding solutions to current problems, but to treat them as equivalent is misguided and belittles the extent of black America's current trouble.
Not to be "dadudemon" on you, but you've just committed a strawman of my point. You're arguing against a point I specifically did not make but does resemble my perspective. To put out there what I stated that directly addresses this point of yours, I said:
"The "they are not the same" statements are invalid. They are all similar and none of them are exactly the same."
My nitpick, if you want to call it that, is the attitude that they are not similar and, therefore, cannot be entertained. I would also nitpick if similar sentiments were popping up in this thread that tried to peddle the parallels I am drawing as "exactly the same and everyone who disagrees should STFU."
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I know you mean well, DDD, but I can't help but get a sense from your posts that you think it's primarily black peoples' own fault that they're not in a better position. Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting your position because I don't want to insult you with a strawman.
Sort of. It is more like what you're doing to my point is (do not take this the wrong way) is twisting it into the ugliest and most unsympathetic version it could represent. Others might say, "Well, dadudemon, your argument is a slippery slope and this is the inevitable conclusion." My actual point is that, ultimately, the ones who can make the greatest and most lasting changes to their situation are the individuals and no matter how many programs the rich white people throw at them, the ultimate saviors are themselves. I also take issue with the thinly veiled racism I see white liberals hold towards the African American community (such that they are incapable of helping themselves and they need to be pampered and cared for throughout their entire life to "make it"😉. As I stated earlier, I was guilty of being one of those subconsciously racist individuals that thought African Americans needed my help to succeed and without, they can't succeed.
My point is not that they have to pick themselves up by their bootstraps. That's pretty dumb to just pretend my point is only that. My point is that the culture itself has to change and the programs we have now need to mature to help them overcome the systematic racism that remains. You can throw 1000 programs and hundreds of billions of dollars at the black community and that doesn't mean shit if the culture will not accept those programs. There is quite a bit (and much of it is justifiable) distrust of the government and law enforcement that has to be overcome before those programs can realize maximum efficacy. There also needs to be paradigm shifts in the real-world family unit (not just an understood idealized family unit, but what actually happens in the real world), perspectives on education, and perspectives on success.
You later address this point in your post and you largely disagree with that.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I'd like a source for your claim of them being viewed as less human than blacks. I've never heard anything that suggests this.
Well, we can start with several places:
http://lachristagreco.com/lachrista-greco-1/2011/05/19/italian-americans-and-whiteness
"Italians are niggaz with short memories"
"Europe ends at Naples. Calabria, Sicily, and all the rest belong to Africa."
"'It was not just that Italians did not look white to certain social arbiters, but they did not act white'"
And this article covers more of the progress from a historical perpsective. It echoes my sentiments that it was hard work and the almost iron-will of the Italians to want to do better for themselves an their families that helped them rise above their oppression and the systematic racism.
http://www.lifeinitaly.com/heritage/italian-discrimination
Here's a much better write-up of the history and it paints them as similar to how African Americans were viewed and treated:
http://www.wishaw.50megs.com/_/Italian_American_Racism.html
But a great book that covers this topic from multiple angles (primary and secondary sources) is this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Anti-Italianism-Prejudice-American-Palgrave-Paperback/dp/023010830X/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1318453868&sr=1-2
But, you wanted a source that demosntrates that people viewed the Italians as less than eve blacks, right? Well, not all held that belief. Some viewed them as better. Some viewed them as similar. Some viewed them as less than blacks. This is similar to opinions people held of blacks, too: varying degrees of "ability" compared to what they viewed as "white people." A great source is from the former Governor of Lousiana who participating in one of the largest mass lynchings in American History:
"...were just a little worse than the Negro, being if anything filthier in [their] habits, lawless and treacherous."
http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/10/opinion/falco-italian-immigrants/
I mentioned this on a previous page.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
In fact, my readings regarding the phenomena of 'passing,' where light skinned blacks pretended to be Spanish or Italian to be better treated and more accepted by white society suggests that being Italian was a huge step up from being black.
I am pretty sure I mentioned this already: the Northern Italians were able to pass off as white and did so. They did not represent a majority of the Italian Immigrants. Most of the Italian Immigrants were the poor Italian families from the south. These were much harder to pass off as "white" because they weren't white. It is similar to how the Latin American immigrants cannot pass off as "white": their names and appearance made that pretty much impossible.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I already covered the catholic angle, which I think was more important in explaining early discrimination against Italians than any notion of race (though Italians were considered a separate race from most Europeans).
I don't think I ever directly addressed that. I view it as a minor issue but, in some cases and areas, it was a major issue. I think if we got into specific situations/altercations, we would largely agree.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
In any case, Italians didn't claw their way to acceptance through some kind grit or determination that blacks lack.
You make this statement to contradict an opinion I did not state. In fact, I had this to say of the African Americans on this topic:
Originally posted by dadudemon
Let's be clear that African Americans were among the hardest working Americans in history. Let's not forget that they were literally worked to death by the thousands for a long period of time in our history. White people do not have a monopoly on hard work and hard working ethics.
I simply reject the notion that "black people are lazy and don't know how to work." That's racist to hold such a position, obviously. I do imply and almost directly state, however, that the American Liberal idea that black people need to be coddled IS racist and DOES imply what you said, above (to be clear, I'm referring to your statement that says: "Italians didn't claw their way to acceptance through some kind grit or determination that blacks lack."😉.