Darth Vader and Darth Malgus vs Darth Sidious

Originally posted by carthage
How does it alter the course of events at all? Windu is still amped, Sidious still blitzes the Jedi masters, and Vader still falls- and the quote even said as long as the novelizations don't deviate from the plot they're still G cannon. Nothing Neph has contradicts that, as that's what it says in the quote. He's ignoring a feat just so Malgus doesn't get oneshot.

It alters the course because the exact thing you're trying to establish is Sidious fading in and out of existence from Anakin's perspective. But Anakin was never in the room to make that observation and thus it was never made.

Carthage, Ush was very clear about regarding most important canon:

Originally posted by Ushgarak
[b]CANON/CONTINUITY

Here, then, is canon policy as applied at these forums:

2. As far as the EU section is concerned, the films are the most important canon. The rest of the canon is rated in-house as part of an ongoing continuity effort by the makers and as much as it can be, that can be treated as the way of things here. Generally speaking, books are very canon, computer games aren’t, but it’s not quite as simple as that. Ask around and you shall find out.

3. Anything George Lucas says about the Star Wars universe is incontestable. We kinda take that as a point of common sense.

That’s more or less it. Below I will state the justifications for this policy

A. Both Lucasfilm and George Lucas himself have made it clear that he only considers the films themselves as ‘canon’, not that he uses that term. This is nothing to do with a statement of quality on the EU, it’s almost certainly a creative approach so that he does not get hemmed in by anything the EU says. And indeed, he has run pretty roughshod over EU elements in making the Prequel films, from the term ‘Darth’ to Boba Fett. Of course, George is not afraid to nick things he likes from the EU, like the name ‘Coruscant’, but that only applies to the individual elements concerned.
[/B]

Originally posted by Nephthys
It alters the course because the exact thing you're trying to establish is Sidious fading in and out of existence [b]from Anakin's perspective. But Anakin was never in the room to make that observation and thus it was never made. [/B]

Sure. But that still doesn't mean that Sidious wasn't moving that fast.

My feeling is two people of this level working together will probably take the majority against anyone. Unless they mess up and interfere with each other, give Sidious a clear shot at one, they should come on top. Even one-on-one would take noticeable effort after all.

And even if Sidious does manage to get one of them eventually, by that point he'll likely be a lot more tired than normal from the effort of lasting that long and trying to press an assault at the same time.

Originally posted by ares834
Sure. But that still doesn't mean that Sidious wasn't moving that fast.

Of course not. But if he was, you'd have to establish that without use of invalid evidence.

None of you guys are catching on to what Cart is actually saying. You guys report him for the silliest shit. He contributes to debates with more detailed analysis than people like Sinious, who do nothing but state there opinion and then shy off.

Anakin is not the source of Sidious' speed, therefore him not being there contradicts nothing.

Nah. Anakin's observation is non-canonical but Sidious's speed is canon.

Originally posted by Q99
My feeling is two people of this level working together will probably take the majority against anyone. Unless they mess up and interfere with each other, give Sidious a clear shot at one, they should come on top. Even one-on-one would take noticeable effort after all.

And even if Sidious does manage to get one of them eventually, by that point he'll likely be a lot more tired than normal from the effort of lasting that long and trying to press an assault at the same time.

Malgus has nothing to indicate he can react to the Emperor's speed. Whether or not the novelization is valid (which the film takes precedence over), the Film still depicts Tiin and Kolar going down. Malgus is roughly as fast as either.

I'm unsure as to whether Vader could react or not.

Originally posted by carthage
Malgus has nothing to indicate he can react to the Emperor's speed. Whether or not the novelization is valid (which the film takes precedence over), the Film still depicts Tiin and Kolar going down. Malgus is roughly as fast as either.

I'm unsure as to whether Vader could react or not.

Fisto was able to react to several blows- he was outskilled, not outsped.

Savage Opress was able to react and as long as he wasn't one-on-one was actually doing ok.

And don't forget- it's not really simple speed, it's precog, and with their strength in the force, these two should have combat precog above Maul, let alone Opress and Fisto.

Basically, Tiin and Kolar seem to be the *very* edge of blitzable by Sidious. Anyone past that has managed to engage in a fight, even if they are outmatched.

Originally posted by ares834
Nah. Anakin's observation is non-canonical but Sidious's speed is canon.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Anakin is not the source of Sidious' speed, therefore him not being there contradicts nothing.

Anakin was the source of the observation though, and thus the observation that Sidious was moving fast enough to fade in and out of someone like Anakin's vision is invalid. His speed still exists, but not as it is established by that observation.

I don't see why this is even much of an issue, since Sidious blitzing the B-team is more than enough to establish his speed. You guys don't need Anakin's perspective.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Of course not. But if he was, you'd have to establish that without use of invalid evidence.

The novel isn't invalid evidence. Anakin's perception was used as added detail to depict just how fast Sidious and Mace were fighting, therefore it was the writer's and, apparently, Lucas' intent for Sidious to move that fast. There's nothing in the movie that contradicts the speed of Mace and Sidious other than Anakin not being there; however Anakin isn't the source of Sidious's speed, so the burden of proof would fall to the ones disagreeing with the writer's intent (in this case: Sidious' speed).

Originally posted by Q99
Fisto was able to react to several blows- he was outskilled, not outsped.

Savage Opress was able to react and as long as he wasn't one-on-one was actually doing ok.

And don't forget- it's not really simple speed, it's precog, and with their strength in the force, these two should have combat precog above Maul, let alone Opress and Fisto.

Basically, Tiin and Kolar seem to be the *very* edge of blitzable by Sidious. Anyone past that has managed to engage in a fight, even if they are outmatched.

Fisto in terms of feats is faster than Tiin, Kolar, and Malgus- how that plays into his ability to react to Palpatine is up for debate. I honestly have no idea how he managed to do that, if Vaapad is still cannon the only reason Mace survived was due to his amp. If its not the entirely possible that PT writers are being inconsistent in enabling him to survive. I don't recall any great feats of perception or precog by Fisto offhand though

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The novel isn't invalid evidence. Anakin's perception was used as added detail to depict just how fast Sidious and Mace were fighting, therefore it was the writer's and, apparently, Lucas' intent for Sidious to move that fast. [b]There's nothing in the movie that contradicts the speed of Mace and Sidious other than Anakin not being there; however Anakin isn't the source of Sidious's speed, so the burden of proof would fall to the ones disagreeing with the writer's intent (in this case: Sidious' speed). [/B]

Mace in terms of speed feats isn't comparable to Palpatine. Windu's speed is contingent on if Vaapad is still cannon or not, as it allowed Windu to only match Palpatine in speed. If Vaapad is non cannon and he matched Palpatine bereft of an amp, then why didn't he utterly smash Vastor, Grievous, Tiin, or Bulq?

Originally posted by carthage
Mace in terms of speed feats isn't comparable to Palpatine. Windu's speed is contingent on if Vaapad is still cannon or not, as it allowed Windu to only match Palpatine in speed. If Vaapad is non cannon and he matched Palpatine bereft of an amp, then why didn't he utterly smash Vastor, Grievous, Tiin, or Bulq?

I'm referring to his speed during his fight with Sidious.

Originally posted by carthage
Fisto in terms of feats is faster than Tiin, Kolar, and Malgus- how that plays into his ability to react to Palpatine is up for debate.

Tiin and Kolar, sure, but Malgus? He fights the best of his era.

And remember- it doesn't have to be just physical speed. Greater precog than those two would do as well. It just needs to be the total *reaction* that is better, in any combination.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The novel isn't invalid evidence. Anakin's perception was used as added detail to depict just how fast Sidious and Mace were fighting, therefore it was the writer's and, apparently, Lucas' intent for Sidious to move that fast. There's nothing in the movie that contradicts the speed of Mace and Sidious other than Anakin not being there; however Anakin isn't the source of Sidious's speed, so the burden of proof would fall to the ones disagreeing with the writer's intent (in this case: Sidious' speed).

Everything that Anakin's narration describes about that duel is invalid. The whole section is invalid. Sidious is moving fast yeah. We all freaking know that. He blitzed 3 of the best duelists alive at the time. But it's only Anakin failing to keep up with his movements that indicates that he's fast enough for Anakin to fail to keep up with his movements. If you want to establish that, do so in a way that doesn't use that evidence.

And you can't decide what the writer's or Lucas' intent was.

Also, I'd like to point out that the entire fight scene has extremely little in common with the movies depiction anyway. If I was feeling salty I'd suggest everything except the inner monologues is non-canon.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
None of you guys are catching on to what Cart is actually saying. You guys report him for the silliest shit. He contributes to debates with more detailed analysis than people like Sinious, who do nothing but state there opinion and then shy off.

lmao

Shy off? I don't ever remember doing that. In fact you have ignored my posts several times where you were out of answers. I've never hesitated to state feats as well. You just feel like you have the right to decide whether an achievement of a character is relevant or not.

Good job pumpkin. I especially loved the part where you said "He contributes to debates"

Originally posted by Nephthys
And you can't decide what the writer's or Lucas' intent was.

I didn't decide it. The writer did for writing it, and Lucas did for leaving it in the novel. You disagreeing with their intentions regarding their speed is up to you to prove false. Again, Anakin not being there doesn't contradict the writers intention.

Anakin isn't far beyond the B-Team in speed. Even Sidious' fight with Yoda and Anakin on the spirit plane had Yoda seemingly try to separate them with the force during the brief two on one saber duel (I'll have to watch that part again), and not wanting Anakin to intervene. However, Anakin's connection to the force is a lot stronger so his battle precognition may be sufficient to react for a while.

Team takes this 10/10.

Sidious is 20% superior to Vader, which is not enough to give him the majority against Vader + Malgus. Team work is a huge bonus in and of itself for the duo.

Originally posted by ares834
Nah. Anakin's observation is non-canonical but Sidious's speed is canon.

👆

We've been down this road before. The forum rules compel us to eliminate that which directly contradicts the movie. The only thing that contradicts the movie is Anakin's observation, not what he observed.

Now that doesn't mean you SWTORians aren't free to put your desperation on display. I invite you to do so indefinitely. It's amusing for the rest of us. 🙂