Vitiate's big problem is that to challenge Sidious properly, he'd have to sit there and sacrifice people on altars and do rituals for about a year straight to sufficiently amp himself.
Sidious:The rule of 2 says you can no longer exist.
Vitiate:That's nice, come back a year from now and we'll have this out.
Sidious:...No. *speedblitz, Vitiate dies*
Originally posted by Angelalex242
Vitiate's big problem is that to challenge Sidious properly, he'd have to sit there and sacrifice people on altars and do rituals for about a year straight to sufficiently amp himself.Sidious:The rule of 2 says you can no longer exist.
Vitiate:That's nice, come back a year from now and we'll have this out.
Sidious:...No. *speedblitz, Vitiate dies*
Originally posted by Angelalex242
Vitiate's big problem is that to challenge Sidious properly, he'd have to sit there and sacrifice people on altars and do rituals for about a year straight to sufficiently amp himself.Sidious:The rule of 2 says you can no longer exist.
Vitiate:That's nice, come back a year from now and we'll have this out.
Sidious:...No. *speedblitz, Vitiate dies*
Vitiate's reputation of relying on prep is way too trumped up. It's ridiculous at this point, since it's all based on fanon interpretation.
Top 10 Jedi:
1) Luke Skywalker
2) Yoda
3) Mace Windu
4/5) Jaina Solo/Revan
6) Anakin Skywalker
7) Cade Skywalker
8) Ulic Qel Droma
9) Satele Shan
10)Nomi Sunrider/Obi-Wan Kenobi(he's down here because of his low force defense)
HoT, Barsen'thor and Exile are not on the list because i don't know where to rank them. sorry if i missed any powerful jedi, these are just the only ones that came to mind at the time
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Top 10 Jedi:1) Luke Skywalker
2) Yoda
3) Mace Windu
4/5) Jaina Solo/Revan
6) Anakin Skywalker
7) Cade Skywalker
8) Ulic Qel Droma
9) Satele Shan
10)Nomi Sunrider/Obi-Wan Kenobi(he's down here because of his low force defense)HoT, Barsen'thor and Exile are not on the list because i don't know where to rank them. sorry if i missed any powerful jedi, these are just the only ones that came to mind at the time
I shall fix the top 5 positions:-
1. Luke Skywalker
2. Revan
3. Yoda / HoT
4. Barsen'thor III
5. Mace Windu
Leaving the rest.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Prove that Revan is anywhere near Vitiate by balance blasting a distracted, diverted Vitiate, deflecting singular bolts of his lightning (lol), being instantaneously overwhelmed by his lightning storm, and having it been stated at least 5 times overall that he can't hope to ever defeat Vitiate.
Scourge had visions {note the plurality} of Vitiate dying at Revan's hands. Technically, we don't even need to examine their duel to know for a fact that Revan had more than just a mere hope of defeating him.
But even if we choose to examine the fight itself, we see quite clearly that Vitiate didn't stomp Revan at all. Was he more powerful? Obviously; no one's contested that. But to pretend that that fight portrays some sort of titanic disparity isn't just silly, it's a total lie. 👆
Originally posted by The_TempestScourge had vision[b]s
{note the plurality} of Vitiate dying at Revan's hands. Technically, we don't even need to examine their duel to know for a fact that Revan had more than just a mere hope of defeating him.But even if we choose to examine the fight itself, we see quite clearly that Vitiate didn't stomp Revan at all. Was he more powerful? Obviously; no one's contested that. But to pretend that that fight portrays some sort of titanic disparity isn't just silly, it's a total lie. 👆
[/B]
Not Revan by himself, which was stated by Revan and the narrator. The entire strike team there did have a legitimate chance in the vision, yes, though admittedly it doesn't make too much sense.
Revan counteracted Vitiate's domination through a technique unique to himself and deflected a bolt of lightning. Vitiate unleashes his full power, and Revan is completely and instantly overwhelmed. You could say it wasn't an uber-stompage ala Yoda vs. Ventress, but Vitiate was obviously the very solid superior.
And this is all not taking into account how Vitiate has been shown in a much more grandiose light in SoR.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
So essentially: After Vitiate blasted Revan across the throne room and tried to do to Revan what he did before, (mind dominate him) and fire up some half-assed lightning bolts, he completely and utterly overwhelmed him in an instant. Admittedly, the lightning bolt part was probably the worst fight scene in all of literature, but it doesn't change that Vitiate wasn't going full force until he realized that Revan was no longer a Ventress to his Palpatine. If there need be any more proof that Vitiate is the top dog by far:
Those half ass bolts put Vitiate on his ass when redirected, so I think you're underestimating the power of those bolts. Obviously there was a high concentration of power in those bolts, enough that it knocked Vitiate on his ass and frustrated him.
Yes, Vitiate overpowered Revan when he seen Revan was a threat, and couldn't be ragdolled. However, this happened on a nexus with Vitiate resorting to his most powerful combat attack (FLS). Revan proved to be a threatening opponent to a nexus enhanced Vitiate, whereas Sidious doesn't need a nexus or his most powerful attack to manhandle Dooku from across the galaxy, or to plaster both Maul and Savage to the wall at the same time.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
"The Dread Masters changed Oricon. Even their combined power is insignificant next to the Emperor.""Revan will try to succeed where others have failed. But the Emperor will prove far too powerful for him...or anyone else."
"You're too weak. You won't last."
"Have some common sense. The Emperor is the dark side incarnate. You wouldn't stand a chance."
I never said Vitiate wasn't top tier. I never said Revan wasn't either. So I'm not sure why you're giving me these quotes to prove Vitiate is top tier.
I still see nothing that puts him on Sidious' level.
Dooku has an exceptional track record of overpowering other powerful force users. He once did it while he was not only blind, but drugged as well. Yet he is absolutely defenseless against Sidious even from across the galaxy. Savage has consistently overpowered groups of force users, and yet he, along with Maul, was helpless against the power of a non-serious Sidious.
If Sidious can easily overpower two powerful force users (both of whom can overpower other powerful individuals, and sometimes even groups of them), at the same time, why should I view Vitiate as being Sidious's equal just because someone stated that the combined power of the dread masters is insignificant next to Vitiate, especially when they lack combat feats? Sidious has shown what he's about, from effortlessly overpowering Revan level force users with a single gesture to being able to blitz through a group of powerful and skilled saber masters with ridiculous ease.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Even in cutscene when the Emperor returns, Revan is shaking and cowering at his very presence. Considering Revan's power accolades and feats (of which are superior to Dooku's, ultimately) such gross superiority over him should give credence to Vitiate completely and utterly overwhelming Dooku, just as Sidious can.
You've convinced me that Revan is a peer of Dooku and perhaps has more knowledge and mastery over the force (something no other poster has been able to), but I've seen nothing that puts him above Dooku as far as feats and combat oriented powers are concerned. As I said, Dooku has consistently overpowered other powerhouses with the force, sometimes while even toying and not trying to kill them, or while handicapped. He's also overpowered groups of them. Just because Revan now has some new feats against other powerful force users to show for his hype doesn't mean he is superior to someone who has consistently shown to do the same.
Yoda passed out after seeing a vision of Sidious and sensing his power, but it had nothing to do with his performance in battle. Both Dooku and Maul have displayed similar fear of Sidious. Hell, Sidious doesn't even have to be in Dooku's presence to bring out such fear in him. Hell, Dooku showed absolutely no fear in going up against Yoda, but that has no bearing on how Yoda compares to Sidious. Sorry, but Revan's fear doesn't lead me to conclude that Vitiate can ragdoll Dooku.
It may seem as if I'm lowballing Vitiate, though I'm not. I've just seen nothing from him that puts him on equal footing to Sidious. Not even his hype and accolades help, considering Sidious has him beat there too.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Not Revan by himself, which was stated by Revan and the narrator. The entire strike team there did have a legitimate chance in the vision, yes, though admittedly it doesn't make too much sense.
The 'strike team' that consisted of Scourge and The Exile, who were outclassed by a Dark Council member that was in turn utterly stomped by Revan himself? To imply that they'd be more than mere distractions at best against Vitiate would require the gulf between Nyriss, Revan, and Vitiate to be much smaller than I suspect you'd be willing to admit.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Revan counteracted Vitiate's domination through a technique unique to himself and deflected a bolt of lightning. Vitiate unleashes his full power, and Revan is completely and instantly overwhelmed.
You're implying that Vitiate half-assed his initial attacks, which isn't the case:
His opponent stood perfectly still, focusing and channeling his power. At the last possible instant, the Emperor unleashed a wave of energy that swept Revan off his feet and sent him flying backward.
Revan twisted in midair so that he was able to roll with the impact when he landed. He quickly sprang back to his feet and advanced again, moving more slowly this time.
At no point was Vitiate pulling his punches: he tries to flatten Revan with TK and fails before proceeding to his patented mind-haxxx. The text notes that both attacks required substantial effort on Vitiate's part.
And even after that, Revan puts Vitiate on his ass twice. The idea that Vitiate was pulling a Sidious to Revan's Maul&Opress is completely without merit.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
You could say it wasn't an uber-stompage ala Yoda vs. Ventress, but Vitiate was obviously the very solid superior.
There again, no one is contesting that Vitiate was clearly the superior Force adept. But not only does the text not support the notion of a stomp, it goes to great lengths to undermine that idea.
The gap is much narrower than you'd care to admit. But you don't have to admit it: it's there in the text and, unfortunately, I can read. 😬
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And this is all not taking into account how Vitiate has been shown in a much more grandiose light in SoR.
Well that's an entirely different animal, isn't it?
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
This should be fun. Me vs. S66 and Tempest? I'm really going to have to schedule these types of things.
I'm only here for the debate about the Revan fight passage. Once you concede to me {and you will}, I'll withdraw and let you duke it out with S66, which should be entertaining. Two of KMC's best.
Spoiler:
My absence will also give you a fighting chance. excellent
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Those half ass bolts put Vitiate on his ass when redirected, so I think you're underestimating the power of those bolts. Obviously there was a high concentration of power in those bolts, enough that it knocked Vitiate on his ass and frustrated him.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes, Vitiate overpowered Revan when he seen Revan was a threat, and couldn't be ragdolled. However, this happened on a nexus with Vitiate resorting to his most powerful combat attack (FLS). Revan proved to be a threatening opponent to a nexus enhanced Vitiate, whereas Sidious doesn't need a nexus or his most powerful attack to manhandle Dooku from across the galaxy, or to plaster both Maul and Savage to the wall at the same time.
And you conveniently overlooked Emperor Vitiate's victory over a formidable Jedi Strike Team on a space station. Therefore, Emperor Vitiate doesn't needs a nexus to be potent.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I never said Vitiate wasn't top tier. I never said Revan wasn't either. So I'm not sure why you're giving me these quotes to prove Vitiate is top tier.I still see nothing that puts him on Sidious' level.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dooku has an exceptional track record of overpowering other powerful force users. He once did it while he was not only blind, but drugged as well. Yet he is absolutely defenseless against Sidious even from across the galaxy. Savage has consistently overpowered groups of force users, and yet he, along with Maul, was helpless against the power of a non-serious Sidious.
Not trying to undermine Darth Sidious by the way, I do believe in a big disparity between him and Count Dooku in power.
As for Count Dooku, he have his moments in his confrontations but he also have shameful history of fleeing from Yoda, Mace Windu and even Savage Opress when he found himself on the receiving end. Also, not every PT era Tom, D***, and Harry is an officially proclaimed powerful Force-user. Stop trying to cheapen the word.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If Sidious can easily overpower two powerful force users (both of whom can overpower other powerful individuals, and sometimes even groups of them), at the same time, why should I view Vitiate as being Sidious's equal just because someone stated that the combined power of the dread masters is insignificant next to Vitiate, especially when they lack combat feats?
And Dread Masters don't lack in combat feats, genius. Play the game.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious has shown what he's about, from effortlessly overpowering Revan level force users with a single gesture to being able to blitz through a group of powerful and skilled saber masters with ridiculous ease.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You've convinced me that Revan is a peer of Dooku and perhaps has more knowledge and mastery over the force (something no other poster has been able to), but I've seen nothing that puts him above Dooku as far as feats and combat oriented powers are concerned. As I said, Dooku has consistently overpowered other powerhouses with the force, sometimes while even toying and not trying to kill them, or while handicapped. He's also overpowered groups of them. Just because Revan now has some new feats against other powerful force users to show for his hype doesn't mean he is superior to someone who has consistently shown to do the same.
Revan have defeated and overwhelmed officially confirmed Force prodigies with his powers including Darth Malak, Darth Nyriss, Satale Shan, Darth Marr, Lana Beniko, and one of the SWTOR Force-user champions (identity unclear as of now). In-fact, Revan have demonstrated sufficient raw power to overwhelm multiple Force prodigies simultaneously which is really insane:
Count Dooku haven't defeated any individual who rivals the aforementioned names in skill and power.
As an example, check Satele Shan in this footage:
This is before her prime, doesn't seems like someone who would end-up getting rag-dolled in a duel from anybody lesser then Emperor Vitiate.
In the nutshell, Revan have demonstrated talents and raw power of the magnitude in combat situations that even the best of the PT era Jedi haven't so far. Your butthurt can be sensed from across the breath of the galaxy.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yoda passed out after seeing a vision of Sidious and sensing his power, but it had nothing to do with his performance in battle. Both Dooku and Maul have displayed similar fear of Sidious. Hell, Sidious doesn't even have to be in Dooku's presence to bring out such fear in him. Hell, Dooku showed absolutely no fear in going up against Yoda, but that has no bearing on how Yoda compares to Sidious. Sorry, but Revan's fear doesn't lead me to conclude that Vitiate can ragdoll Dooku.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It may seem as if I'm lowballing Vitiate, though I'm not. I've just seen nothing from him that puts him on equal footing to Sidious. Not even his hype and accolades help, considering Sidious has him beat there too.
Fact is that Emperor Vitiate have threatened Darth Sidious's supremacy in the mythos, and this makes fans of the latter character uncomfortable and their attempts to cheapen the former amusing.