Top 10 Sith/Jedi

Originally posted by Sinious
He did channel his power but not for a single attack. I'd say its a dark side version of meditating though it(the med) most likely lasted a few seconds as everything happened really fast there.

The problem is that Viti focusing his energies and letting them fly at the last possible instant isn't the behavior of someone engaging in a casual affair. It's the equivalent of a good stretch or warm-up session before an intense workout. You do that precisely because what's going on is strenuous.

Originally posted by Sinious
Vitiate didnt see Revan as a threat until he got struck in the chest with a bolt of lightning. You would agree with this part right?

I wouldn't agree. Not only does the text not support this, it also suggests Viti wouldn't be troubled by being knocked on his ass, which is what happens when he tries to mindrape Revan.

Originally posted by Sinious
Prior to this, his attacks were a lot weaker than his true capacity. You'd also agree with this too I assume? When he gets hit on the chest, there is a clear change in every aspect of the fight:

" It struck the Emperor in the chest, sending him sliding several meters back on the floor. For the first time the Sith’s emotionless veneer cracked as he let out a primal hiss of hate. The sound sent shivers down Revan’s spine.
The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.
Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.
A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.
Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him."

The attacks were weaker because they were rapid-fire {the text notes he fires bolts in "quick succession"} to stall a charging opponent, not because their lethality was intentionally reduced. It's the difference between a jab and haymaker. One attack affords you more opportunity to hit harder.

Originally posted by Sinious
His mentality along with his emotions changed as he felt rage and for the first time, he sent an attack that revealed his true power which utterly crushed Revan.

What part of any of this do we disagree on?

We disagree on much of it.

Your theory is unsupported by the text and is often quite contradicted by it. We know Viti put considerable effort into his two initial attacks {TK & mindrape}. We know that his next attacks were rapid-fire to stop a charging opponent. It was only after Revan put Viti on his ass a second time {which sent him spinning "several meters" away} that a particularly pissed off Viti was afforded time and space to try for another charged attack.

If you're saying that Viti became angrier and more ferocious at the duel's end, then of course we agree: that was never in question. But this wasn't a Sidious/Maul/Savage scenario where Viti was treating this like playtime. The text notes he was putting serious effort into his attacks and he was put on his ass twice. That fight wasn't a stomp.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
@Neph, by that logic, Vitiate's attack on the jedi strike team is less impressive since only two of them managed to catch the lightning with their sabers, whereas the bolts missed the other's sabers. You're trying to diminish the feat just because they didn't manage to catch Dooku's attack with their sabers, but that doesn't mean their force defenses were lowered. We went over this, and it ended with you getting mad for calling you out on double standards.

Ok, but do you disagree with my interpretation? If Dooku could have done that at any point, why would he wait until he was spent and weakened from the poison. And do you disagree that Ventress was caught off guard and with lesser defenses? Lightning is notably much harder to block with a standard force shield.

Edit: Wait what. Where did the post go?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok, but do you disagree with my interpretation? If Dooku could have done that at any point, why would he wait until he was spent and weakened from the poison. And do you disagree that Ventress was caught off guard and with lesser defenses? Lightning is notably much harder to block with a standard force shield.

Edit: Wait what. Where did the post go?

Dooku had no other option by that point. And yes, had they managed to block the attack with their sabers, it would have been much harder to break through their defenses. However, IIRC, when Ventress did manage to use her saber to catch Dooku's lightning assault, her saber defense was nearly overpowered, forcing her saber to the ground. Not to mention that Kenobi's and Kiplee's saber defenses were nearly overpowered by a one handed lightning assault from Dooku.

Regardless, I find the level of Dooku's sheer dominance over Ventress and others more impressive than force pushing some powerful force users to the ground. Savage has consistently done that.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The problem is that Viti focusing his energies and letting them fly at the last possible instant isn't the behavior of someone engaging in a casual affair. It's the equivalent of a good stretch or warm-up session before an intense workout. You do that precisely because what's going on is strenuous.

No, what I mean is that Vitiate most likely prepared himself for the confrontation as he did nothing but sit on his throne room for centuries. I doubt that the charging was for the first attack. It was probably just to summon his force energies.

I wouldn't agree. Not only does the text not support this, it also suggests Viti wouldn't be troubled by being knocked on his ass, which is what happens when he tries to mindrape Revan.

The only reason why he lost the TK energy "exchange" is because he underestimated Revan and tried to mindrape him which isn't the best way of approaching an enemy if they have a defense for it. Vitiate didnt know that though.

The attacks were weaker because they were rapid-fire {the text notes he fires bolts in "quick succession"} to stall a charging opponent, not because their lethality was intentionally reduced. It's the difference between a jab and haymaker. One attack affords you more opportunity to hit harder.

Yes but instead of this, he could've just sent his powerful FLS right away. He probably thought that would be an excessive use of power at first.

We disagree on much of it.

🙁

Your theory is unsupported by the text and is often quite contradicted by it. We know Viti put considerable effort into his two initial attacks {TK & mindrape}. We know that his next attacks were rapid-fire to stop a charging opponent. It was only after Revan put Viti on his ass a second time {which sent him spinning "several meters" away} that a particularly pissed off Viti was afforded time and space to try for another charged attack.

I dont disagree with this. Though I'm not sure what you mean by "time and space afforded" Vitiate charged that attack very fast. Revan wasn't far away from him at that point and he as a high tier force user had no time to reach Vitiate before Vitiate could unleash the attack.

If you're saying that Viti became angrier and more ferocious at the duel's end, then of course we agree: that was never in question. But this wasn't a Sidious/Maul/Savage scenario where Viti was treating this like playtime.

Well yes he did but its not like that boosted his power. Vitiate was unusually calm at first and then he felt rage like a normal sith would. This is only to prove that Vitiate took Revan more seriously after the lightning bolt struck him on the chest.

No Sidious had control over both of them throughout the entire duel which is not the case with Revan and Vitiate. I've never claimed a similarity between two fights.

The text notes he was putting serious effort into his attacks and he was put on his ass twice. That fight wasn't a stomp.

Like I said before, the text does not support a stomp, but it depicts Vitiate's powers as sufficient enough to defeat Revan with a single attack if he chooses so.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dooku had no other option by that point. And yes, had they managed to block the attack with their sabers, it would have been much harder to break through their defenses. However, IIRC, when Ventress did manage to use her saber to catch Dooku's lightning assault, her saber defense was nearly overpowered, forcing her saber to the ground. Not to mention that Kenobi's and Kiplee's saber defenses were nearly overpowered by a one handed lightning assault from Dooku.

Regardless, I find the level of Dooku's sheer dominance over Ventress and others more impressive than force pushing some powerful force users to the ground. Savage has consistently done that.

A telekinetic wave or whatever he did can be ably defended against with a Force shield/barrier. But as I pointed out it's way harder to block lightning with those kinds of defenses. Revan overpowering them with TK would be harder than overwhelming their non-lightsaber defenses with lightning.

Also Marr, Satele, Lana, Wrath >>> Ventress and two mooks.

Kenobi alone blocked Dooku's lightning easily in the movie.

Originally posted by Sinious
No, what I mean is that Vitiate most likely prepared himself for the confrontation as he did nothing but sit on his throne room for centuries. I doubt that the charging was for the first attack. It was probably just to summon his force energies.

Who knows? Either way, though, he was preparing himself for a strenuous encounter: which is what it was.

Originally posted by Sinious
The only reason why he lost the TK energy "exchange" is because he underestimated Revan and tried to mindrape him which isn't the best way of approaching an enemy if they have a defense for it. Vitiate didnt know that though.

No, he tried to TK Revan prior to mindraping him. The blast did land, but all it did was blow Revan back {Revan rolled to avoid serious impact and got right back up}. And this was right after Viti spent time gathering his energies. Essentially, Revan shrugged off a concentrated attack from Viti, further indicating a substantially smaller gap between them than some would want to admit.

Originally posted by Sinious
Yes but instead of this, he could've just sent his powerful FLS right away. He probably thought that would be an excessive use of power at first.

Originally posted by Sinious
Like I said before, the text does not support a stomp, but it depicts Vitiate's powers as sufficient enough to defeat Revan with a single attack if he chooses so.

Or perhaps he thought the other attacks would be sufficient to thwart Revan. Either way, this is a pointless exercise to conduct.

We might as well argue that Viti's "FLS" {loathe that term, btw} only succeeded because Revan foolishly tries to blunt them barehanded and had he tried a different attack {like TK'ing Vitiate while his energy was focused elsewhere}, the fight would have ended differently.

Originally posted by Nephthys
A telekinetic wave or whatever he did can be ably defended against with a Force shield/barrier. But as I pointed out it's way harder to block lightning with those kinds of defenses. Revan overpowering them with TK would be harder than overwhelming their non-lightsaber defenses with lightning.

Also Marr, Satele, Lana, Wrath >>> Ventress and two mooks.

Kenobi alone blocked Dooku's lightning easily in the movie.

I wasn't just talking about the lightning attack. Like I said the other day, Dooku has a high track record of outright dominating other powerful force users with extreme ease, which I find just as impressive as force pushing a few at once. Savage has consistently force pushed multiple powerful force users at once, and I believe Ventress has a few times as well. Don't get me wrong, it's an impressive feat on Revan's part, and it doesn't make me as hesitant to put him on Dooku's level anymore. Before then, I felt I was being far too generous because of the way Dooku casually and consistently manhandles powerful force users. I know if it was the other way around you TOR fans wouldn't have been as generous.

Kenobi managing to easily block Dooku's lightning years earlier is irrelevant to how he and another jedi struggled to block it in SoD.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Who knows? Either way, though, he was preparing himself for a strenuous encounter: which is what it was.

Or he was just being cautious without using excessive force? We can keep speculating as long as you want.

No, he tried to TK Revan prior to mindraping him. The blast did land, but all it did was blow Revan back {Revan rolled to avoid serious impact and got right back up}. And this was right after Viti spent time gathering his energies. Essentially, Revan shrugged off a concentrated attack from Viti, further indicating a substantially smaller gap between them than some would want to admit.

I'm sorry I though we were talking about the second time Revan approached him with his "balance" energy attack by TK. I'm not sure what type of a force ability was used there so I said TK energy exchange lol.

A concentrated attack? The text doesn't say that Vitiate unleashed a concentrated attack. It was just a last minute push to send Revan back. We already know what happens when Vitiate sends a concentrated attack on Revan. Not much to speculate here.

Or perhaps he thought the other attacks would be sufficient to thwart Revan. Either way, this is a pointless exercise to conduct.

We might as well argue that Viti's "FLS" {loathe that term, btw} only succeeded because Revan foolishly tries to blunt them barehanded and had he tried a different attack {like TK'ing Vitiate while his energy was focused elsewhere}, the fight would have ended differently.

I can't believe how a master of the force and a genius tactician couldn't think about that. If only you were there to guide him. 🙄

Obviously, that wasn't an option. Revan knew that Vitiate would defend against anything he casts on him with the force. Vitiate was channeling his power but he was focused on Revan.

"Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan."

Originally posted by Sinious
Or he was just being cautious without using excessive force? We can keep speculating as long as you want.

Oh, Viti was being cautious now? A couple of posts ago, you were handwaving his poor performance on hubris. How can one be cautious and arrogant at the same time?

Spoiler:
If it hasn't already dawned on you, you can't salvage this argument: it's circular and inevitably leads to your concession. Viti was taking this fight seriously, period.

Originally posted by Sinious
I'm sorry I though we were talking about the second time Revan approached him with his "balance" energy attack by TK. I'm not sure what type of a force ability was used there so I said TK energy exchange lol.

A concentrated attack? The text doesn't say that Vitiate unleashed a concentrated attack. It was just a last minute push to send Revan back. We already know what happens when Vitiate sends a concentrated attack on Revan. Not much to speculate here.

The text says he was gathering his energies to the extent that only at the last possible instant did he let an attack fly. That's pretty concentrated.

Originally posted by Sinious
I can't believe how a master of the force and a genius tactician couldn't think about that. If only you were there to guide him. 🙄

You mean like 'a master of the force and a genius tactician' would let a guy you claim he so utterly outclasses put him on his ass twice? 😐

Tactical errors are committed all the time by otherwise brilliant characters. This isn't a cogent defense.

Originally posted by Sinious
Obviously, that wasn't an option.

Because you say so?

Originally posted by Sinious
Revan knew that Vitiate would defend against anything he casts on him with the force.

If that were the case, Viti wouldn't have already been put on his ass twice. But it's great to see a no-limits fallacy cherry on top of your contradiction sundae there. 👆

Originally posted by Sinious
Vitiate was channeling his power but he was focused on Revan.

"Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, [B]breaking his focus on Revan." [/B]

Non-sequitur? What does this have to do with anything?

Revan already put Viti on his ass when Viti was focusing his powers on an attack. Instead of doing that here, Revan elected to try to catch Viti's energy bolts barehanded. We have no idea what would have happened had he tried a different {and previously successful} approach, which makes your armchair quarterbacking kinda useless. {Which, in turn, was the whole point of bringing it up.}

To add onto The_Tempest's argument:

"He even nearly assassinated the Sith Emperor."
―Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia

Agreed with Temp, btw.

Originally posted by Sinious
Its hard to be too specific when you place a character in a top 5-10 list so I made it more vague and easier to accept. However, I don't think Revan is above Yoda just like I don't believe Vitiate is above Sidious.

Originally posted by Sinious
Vitiate is depicted more godlikely which made me consider the possibility of his superiority for a time but as a combatant, Sidious is more capable and would AT LEAST stalemate him in the force and then kill him while dueling. Sidious' position as no.1 is pretty solid though I don't agree with the notion of him being unrivaled. Vitiate is the best example for this. Caedus and Plagueis should give him a good fight too.

Originally posted by Sinious
Yoda is more powerful than Revan in the force as he stalemated(kinda) ROTS Sidious though I think that Revan wouldn't get stomped in the force. But with sabers added, Yoda clearly has the upper hand.

Furthermore, I don't think that Yoda performed really well against Sidious. Yoda got knocked out cleanly in the first bout but Sidious did not capitalize on this moment (foolishly wasted time to kill Yoda when the Jedi Master was down). Afterwards, Yoda did seem to give Sidious tough time with his martial abilities but Sidious seemed to utilize his surroundings more aggressively to gain advantage until the two landed in the same pod and then Yoda ended up disarmed but somehow managed to give Sidious a taste of his own medicine to some extent, but the resulting blast from the struggle seemed to be the end of Yoda in continuing the confrontation and he fled. If the battle had continued further, I believe that Sidious would have defeated Yoda and perhaps even killed him.

Yoda, for all his power and hype, seems to underperform with his powers against a powerful adversary. Perhaps his mindset is an issue or perhaps he expends lot of energy in dueling effort and fails to maintain balance in his choices.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Oh, Viti was being cautious now? A couple of posts ago, you were handwaving his poor performance on hubris. How can one be cautious and arrogant at the same time?

Spoiler:
If it hasn't already dawned on you, you can't salvage this argument: it's circular and inevitably leads to your concession. Viti was taking this fight seriously, period.

Nah, I never said Vitiate was reckless. The main feature of his character is fear of death. He was arrogant because he saw himself so far above Revan that he considered a great jedi like Revan as fodder compared to him which wasn't the case. Vitiate would at least have to summon a powerful attack to deal with him.

The text says he was gathering his energies to the extent that only at the last possible instant did he let an attack fly. That's pretty concentrated.

Really? Maybe Vitiate was toying with him? He waited for Revan to reach him only to send him flying backward. It is a classic move in fighting scenes with superpowers. The text doesn't suggest what you claim anymore than it does mine.

You mean like 'a master of the force and a genius tactician' would let a guy you claim he so utterly outclasses put him on his ass twice? 😐

Tactical errors are committed all the time by otherwise brilliant characters. This isn't a cogent defense.

Because you say so?

Its totally not the same thing. Sidious' hubris blinded him in ROTJ just like Vitiate's hubris blinded him here. In Revan's case, he specifically focused on possible maneuvers he can pull off and tutaminis was the only chance he had.

Because the author says so. :/
"Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. "

If that were the case, Viti wouldn't have already been put on his ass twice. But it's great to see a no-limits fallacy cherry on top of your contradiction sundae there. 👆

Non-sequitur? What does this have to do with anything?

Revan already put Viti on his ass when Viti was focusing his powers on an attack. Instead of doing that here, Revan elected to try to catch Viti's energy bolts barehanded. We have no idea what would have happened had he tried a different {and previously successful} approach, which makes your armchair quarterbacking kinda useless. {Which, in turn, was the whole point of bringing it up.}

Both were unexpected attacks. This time, Revan knew Vitiate meant business.

Do you really think Revan could possibly hope to overwhelm Vitiate with the force? He got lucky the first 2 times. Once Vitiate decided to end it, Revan knew that his only hope was to close the gap and try to strike him down but it is clearly stated that Vitiate was fast enough to charge and release his attack on time.

If Vitiate had charged his FLS at the beginning of the fight, Revan would be finished right away just like he was at the end of the fight. Nothing prior to that made it possible for Vitiate to crush Revan's defenses like that. Vitiate's lightning is just that good.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
To add onto The_Tempest's argument:

"He even nearly assassinated the Sith Emperor."
―Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia

I never denied this fact. It doesn't have much to do with power in this case though.

God damn it I find myself debating with Tempest in favor of Vitiate and against him with Legend in the same thread. 🤪

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Rankings are likely to remain disputed and subjective because multiple authors contribute to the lore and they also have preferences and agenda. However, I am open to the possibility of Emperor Vitiate being above Darth Sidious and Master Revan being above Master Yoda and BioWare seems to promote this school of thought indirectly.

What do you think about their accolades that make them better than who ever came before? Just curious.

I have found Emperor Vitiate most dominating in combat situations. Nonetheless, uncertainty always exist in a hypothetical comparison and I do believe that Darth Sidious is among the few who posit a significant threat to Emperor Vitiate in a confrontation. Not denying the possibility of Emperor Vitiate ending up struck down but I also believe that he can destroy any foe with his powers.

Given right circumstances, yes. 👆

Honestly, I have always considered the possibility of Revan being on par wih Yoda but now I believe that Revan is actually superior and more competent warrior then Yoda. Revan have demonstrated raw power rivaling that of Yoda (if not better) and talents that Yoda haven't and also seems to utilize his raw power more effectively then Yoda in combat situations. Perhaps Revan expends less energy on dueling and balances his choices.

Furthermore, I don't think that Yoda performed really well against Sidious. Yoda got knocked out cleanly in the first bout but Sidious did not capitalize on this moment (foolishly wasted time to kill Yoda when the Jedi Master was down). Afterwards, Yoda did seem to give Sidious tough time with his martial abilities but Sidious seemed to utilize his surroundings more aggressively to gain advantage until the two landed in the same pod and then Yoda ended up disarmed but somehow managed to give Sidious a taste of his own medicine to some extent, but the resulting blast from the struggle seemed to be the end of Yoda in continuing the confrontation and he fled.

I place Yoda by comparing him to ROTS Sidious. I agree that Sidious had the upper hand there, still though performing like that against Sidious is impressive enough for me to put him above Revan.

If the battle had continued further, I believe that Sidious would have defeated Yoda and perhaps even killed him.

Yoda, for all his power and hype, seems to underperform with his powers against a powerful adversary. Perhaps his mindset is an issue or perhaps he expends lot of energy in dueling effort and fails to maintain balance in his choices.

👆

Originally posted by Sinious
Nah, I never said Vitiate was reckless. The main feature of his character is fear of death. He was arrogant because he saw himself so far above Revan that he considered a great jedi like Revan as fodder compared to him which wasn't the case. Vitiate would at least have to summon a powerful attack to deal with him.

That's all well and good but doesn't change the point: you can't handwave a poor performance on hubris and claim that any prep-work was the result of caution by the same man in the same fight. Which is it: was Viti fighting cautiously or arrogantly?

Originally posted by Sinious
Really? Maybe Vitiate was toying with him? He waited for Revan to reach him only to send him flying backward. It is a classic move in fighting scenes with superpowers. The text doesn't suggest what you claim anymore than it does mine.

Maybe if the text said something like: 'Vitiate sighed dramatically and examined his perfectly-manicured fingernails as Revan raced forward like a runner in a Special Olympics dash' or something to convey indifference to his charging opponent. But it doesn't. What it says is that Viti stood still, gathered his energies, and let them fly at the last possible instant. What's more, the subsequent fight only hammers home the fact that Revan legitimately challenged Viti.

Originally posted by Sinious
Its totally not the same thing. Sidious' hubris blinded him in ROTJ just like Vitiate's hubris blinded him here. In Revan's case, he specifically focused on possible maneuvers he can pull off and tutaminis was the only chance he had.

Because the author says so. :/
"Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. "

Like it totally is the same thing, guuurl. I said tactical errors are committed all the time by otherwise brilliant characters. That Revan made a tactical error in the heat of battle doesn't change anything.

Originally posted by Sinious
Both were unexpected attacks. This time, Revan knew Vitiate meant business.

Unexpected? You mean because Viti was too busy exerting himself to put Revan down and failed. 👆

Originally posted by Sinious
Do you really think Revan could possibly hope to overwhelm Vitiate with the force? He got lucky the first 2 times.

That's a wanktastic interpretation, but nothing more.

Originally posted by Sinious
Once Vitiate decided to end it, Revan knew that his only hope was to close the gap and try to strike him down but it is clearly stated that Vitiate was fast enough to charge and release his attack on time.

If Vitiate had charged his FLS at the beginning of the fight, Revan would be finished right away just like he was at the end of the fight. Nothing prior to that made it possible for Vitiate to crush Revan's defenses like that. Vitiate's lightning is just that good.

Cool story, bro.

The notion that Viti wasn't trying to end the fight from the get-go is pure fanon that is contradicted by the actual source material, which explicitly states that Viti tied up a considerable amount of his Force energy trying to put Revan down, to say nothing of how Viti was put on his ass twice by Revan.

You have wishful thinking bordering on outright fetishistic fantasy. I have the actual text and your own concession that the fight wasn't a stomp.

I win. 👆

When you can bring something other than fanon to the table, give me a jingle.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's all well and good but doesn't change the point: you can't handwave a poor performance on hubris and claim that any prep-work was the result of caution by the same man in the same fight. Which is it: was Viti fighting cautiously or arrogantly?

I didn't know I had to acknowledge the rules you come up with.

Vitiate is always cautious against death which is why he gathered his strength right before the fight but because he underestimated Revan, he didnt go all out on him with it. See how good that works?

Maybe if the text said something like: 'Vitiate sighed dramatically and examined his perfectly-manicured fingernails as Revan raced forward like a runner in a Special Olympics dash' or something to convey indifference to his charging opponent. But it doesn't. What it says is that Viti stood still, gathered his energies, and let them fly at the last possible instant. What's more, the subsequent fight only hammers home the fact that Revan legitimately challenged Viti.

He stood still without an expression and and didnt act until Revan got really close to him and at last minute he sent him flying backwards. Doesn't that hint anything to you?

Like it totally is the same thing, guuurl. I said tactical errors are committed all the time by otherwise brilliant characters. That Revan made a tactical error in the heat of battle doesn't change anything.

And like I said, Revan felt Vitiate's increasing dark side energy and saw him channeling all his power. He knew he wouldn't get the chance to keep up with him with the force this time so all he could've done at that point was try surviving the attack.

Unexpected? You mean because Viti was too busy exerting himself to put Revan down and failed. 👆

Unexpected because Vitiate didn't think Revan was capable of defending against Vitiate's attacks let alone reflecting it.

That's a wanktastic interpretation, but nothing more.

😂

Cool story, bro.

The notion that Viti wasn't trying to end the fight from the get-go is pure fanon that is contradicted by the actual source material, which explicitly states that Viti tied up a considerable amount of his Force energy trying to put Revan down, to say nothing of how Viti was put on his ass twice by Revan.

Obviously he did but he thought it would take much less effort to deal with Revan. I meant that once Vitiate realized that he has to take this more seriously, and unleash his true power, it was over for Revan.

You have wishful thinking bordering on outright fetishistic fantasy. I have the actual text and your own concession that the fight wasn't a stomp.

Nice choice of words. You're truly funny. We are using the same text as arguments and all you're doing here is trying to gain a psychological advantage as if the text says exactly what you claim out of it. I said from the beginning that it wasn't a stomp. My argument is that Vitiate could take out Revan from the beginning if he had chosen to use his FLS right away like he did to the jedi strike team.

I win. 👆

When you can bring something other than fanon to the table, give me a jingle.

Declaring yourself a winner doesn't make you one bro. Sorry.

Tempest won.

Sinious
I didn't know I had to acknowledge the rules you come up with.

Duh. Otherwise all your arguments would rapidly devolve into incoherent Vitiate wank.

The rule is pretty simple: don't contradict [yourself or the source material].

Sinious
Vitiate is always cautious against death which is why he gathered his strength right before the fight but because he underestimated Revan, he didnt go all out on him with it. See how good that works?

Google translated this mess as: Vitiate took Revan seriously but not really but kinda but maybe but I'm honestly not sure and I'm waffling to avoid making a commitment because what I am sure of is that you have me by the balls on this one but fapfapfapfapVitiatefapfapfapfap

Sinious
I said from the beginning that it wasn't a stomp.

Me
I win. 👆

Ant
Tempest won.

I did.

Me
When you can bring something other than fanon to the table, give me a jingle.

👆

Tempest smashing Sinus