^Lmao
Regarding the notion that Dooku wouldn't expect a force attack from Sidious, Dooku makes it quite clear that Sidious is very prone to it (Yoda: DR), even via hologram, which is why he almost attempted to shut off communication with Sidious at one point. Not to mention Sidious is sadistic and abusive by nature. No reason to assume Dooku didn't expect it, and every reason to assume that he did expect it.
Not sure if you were under the impression that Dooku didn't expect it, Skillz, but reading through LeGenD's post, I thought I'd get that out of the way just in case it gets brought up.
Regarding the fight between Revan and Vitiate;
The only reason why the text doesn't support a notion of a stomp is because Vitiate made tactical errors. It supports the sufficiency of Vitiate's power to stomp Revan, however. When the Emperor sees the assassins barge into his throne room and approach him(only Revan at this point) the text clearly states that he doesn't feel worried at all. Had this been an arena type duel where both sides go all out on each other from the beginning, Vitiate would probably one-shot Revan which wasn't the case in the novel. Obviously, they're not gonna let the main character(who's name gave the novel its title) get one-shot at the climax of the novel.
Emperor Vitiate is a very arrogant character. Despite his intelligence, his clear superiority over everyone else around him must have made it harder for him to see a single individual as a threat. @Tempest, you can even consider this as another cheap similarity between Vitiate and Sidious.
The Emperor assumed he could telepathically dominate Revan which allowed Revan to catch him off guard. That's the only reason Revan could push him back, off his feat. Vitiate also assumed a few lightning bolts would be enough to eliminate the opposition but he was wrong again which again is the only reason he was struck in the chest with his own lightning. Finally when he realized that he would have to take him seriously, he rapidly charged up and released a concentrated lightning attack and utterly crushed Revan.
Other than that, even a more powerful incarnation of Revan is stated and depicted as no match for the Emperor.
Vitiate is far above someone like Revan who is definitely a top 5 jedi material. This by itself should be more than enough to secure him a place in top 3 sith.
"No one person, not even Revan can truly destroy the Emperor."
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Regarding the notion that Dooku wouldn't expect a force attack from Sidious, Dooku makes it quite clear that Sidious is very prone to it (Yoda: DR), even via hologram, which is why he almost attempted to shut off communication with Sidious at one point. Not to mention Sidious is sadistic and abusive by nature. No reason to assume Dooku didn't expect it, and every reason to assume that he did expect it.Not sure if you were under the impression that Dooku didn't expect it, Skillz, but reading through LeGenD's post, I thought I'd get that out of the way just in case it gets brought up.
My argument is based on the history between Assaj Ventress and Count Dooku. The latter choked the former with a minor gesture on one occasion and it seemed as if the former would be fodder for the latter in an actual confrontation. However, this turned out to be false, not asserting that the former is much of a threat to the latter but wasn't fodder either and the confrontation didn't just end at the former getting choked to death.
Not surprisingly, Assaj was actually fodder for Yoda and would be for Sidious. I have always held the impression that Yoda had held back against Count Dooku on Geonosis, the former had soft corner for the latter and attempted to redeem the latter at every opportunity. I don't think that Count Dooku can give Yoda and Sidious a good challenge in a serious confrontation. Up against Sidious, I don't think that Count Dooku would do noticeably better then lets say Darth Maul.
Count Dooku was powerful undoubtedly and I have always considered him as a benchmark to measure other characters but he is heavily outclassed by some in recent updates. I don't regard him TOP 10 material to be honest, not even close.
@Sinious
You concede too much after formulating a good argument. If Emperor Vitiate is stronger then Darth Sidious and Revan is stronger then Yoda, this isn't an end of the world, and neither fans should be ashamed to believe in this possibility. Star Wars will never be the same in Legends.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My argument is based on the history between Assaj Ventress and Count Dooku. The latter choked the former with a minor gesture on one occasion and it seemed as if the former would be fodder for the latter in an actual confrontation. However, this turned out to be false, not asserting that the former is much of a threat to the latter but wasn't fodder either and the confrontation didn't just end at the former getting choked to death.
This is a pretty perfect example. 👆
No one's going to be on guard through an entire conversation let alone through every conversation. Even if you were, if you have no idea WHEN or IF the other person is going to attack, it still would hit you by surprise when he does.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Not surprisingly, Assaj was actually fodder for Yoda and would be for Sidious. I have always held the impression that Yoda had held back against Count Dooku on Geonosis, the former had soft corner for the latter and attempted to redeem the latter at every opportunity. I don't think that Count Dooku can give Yoda and Sidious a good challenge in a serious confrontation. Up against Sidious, I don't think that Count Dooku would do noticeably better then lets say Darth Maul.Count Dooku was powerful undoubtedly and I have always considered him as a benchmark to measure other characters but he is heavily outclassed by some in recent updates. I don't regard him TOP 10 material to be honest, not even close.
Count Dooku is a small step below Mace Windu in combat prowess. There's really no reason to think he's any less powerful than that.
He IS one of the most Powerful Jedi and most Powerful Sith in the both those Order's history.
Originally posted by Nephthys
It's not stated that he was holding back against those two and a source stated that Windu was forced to use his full power to beat her or some such.
Yes there are sources says that Windu was holding back against his old jedi fellas, he is usually doing that lot, (Quinlan Vos etc.)
He wasn't holding back against Ventress, and he stomped her.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Looking into his fight's against Maul, Depa, Sora and Ventress I simply don't find him as strong a duelist as Dooku. Nor is he as skilled and powerful with the Force imo. I think I may bump him down to CW Anakin level.
Interesting, although Ventress also put up a fight against Dooku. And I'm sure SOD Maul would give Dooku hell before Dooku could take him down.
My opinion of him has gone up since he stalemated Mother Talzin. Talzin seems to have been made out to be the next most powerful being in the Galaxy after Yoda and Sidious.
And then of course there'll always be the fact that he beat Sidious.
Originally posted by Marco1907
Mace is more powerful than RotS Anakin, it's g-canon.
That's not G-Canon. Lucas stated you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious. However he never said you have to be Yoda or Sidious to compete with Mace.
ROTS Skywalker could easily be a Saber rival to Windu, but still not have the Force TK Prowess to fight Sidious.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@SiniousYou concede too much after formulating a good argument. If Emperor Vitiate is stronger then Darth Sidious and Revan is stronger then Yoda, this isn't an end of the world, and neither fans should be ashamed to believe in this possibility. Star Wars will never be the same in Legends.
Its hard to be too specific when you place a character in a top 5-10 list so I made it more vague and easier to accept. However, I don't think Revan is above Yoda just like I don't believe Vitiate is above Sidious.
Vitiate is depicted more godlikely which made me consider the possibility of his superiority for a time but as a combatant, Sidious is more capable and would AT LEAST stalemate him in the force and then kill him while dueling. Sidious' position as no.1 is pretty solid though I don't agree with the notion of him being unrivaled. Vitiate is the best example for this. Caedus and Plagueis should give him a good fight too.
Yoda is more powerful than Revan in the force as he stalemated(kinda) ROTS Sidious though I think that Revan wouldn't get stomped in the force. But with sabers added, Yoda clearly has the upper hand.
Originally posted by Sinious
Regarding the fight between Revan and Vitiate;The only reason why the text doesn't support a notion of a stomp is because Vitiate made tactical errors. It supports the sufficiency of Vitiate's power to stomp Revan, however. When the Emperor sees the assassins barge into his throne room and approach him(only Revan at this point) the text clearly states that he doesn't feel worried at all. Had this been an arena type duel where both sides go all out on each other from the beginning, Vitiate would probably one-shot Revan which wasn't the case in the novel. Obviously, they're not gonna let the main character(who's name gave the novel its title) get one-shot at the climax of the novel.
Emperor Vitiate is a very arrogant character. Despite his intelligence, his clear superiority over everyone else around him must have made it harder for him to see a single individual as a threat. @Tempest, you can even consider this as another cheap similarity between Vitiate and Sidious.
The Emperor assumed he could telepathically dominate Revan which allowed Revan to catch him off guard. That's the only reason Revan could push him back, off his feat. Vitiate also assumed a few lightning bolts would be enough to eliminate the opposition but he was wrong again which again is the only reason he was struck in the chest with his own lightning. Finally when he realized that he would have to take him seriously, he rapidly charged up and released a concentrated lightning attack and utterly crushed Revan.
Other than that, even a more powerful incarnation of Revan is stated and depicted as no match for the Emperor.
Vitiate is far above someone like Revan who is definitely a top 5 jedi material. This by itself should be more than enough to secure him a place in top 3 sith.
"No one person, not even Revan can truly destroy the Emperor."
But the text doesn't support this, as I've already proven with Skillz.
Vitiate is said to have watched "proceedings with a cold detachment" but the text also states that Vitiate "stood perfectly still, focusing and channeling his power" as Revan makes his initial charge, to the extent that he only attacks "at the last possible instant."
The text doesn't portray Vitiate as firing off-the-cuff and casual attacks. His first two moves {the initial TK blast & his attempt to dominate Revan's mind} were explicitly stated to be the product of effort and gathered energies.
Now if you want to argue that the gap widened considerably between Revan and Vitiate later on, that's your prerogative, but the fact of the matter is that it's not there in the book.
Originally posted by Sinious
Vitiate is depicted more godlikely which made me consider the possibility of his superiority for a time but as a combatant, Sidious is more capable and would AT LEAST stalemate him in the force and then kill him while dueling. Sidious' position as no.1 is pretty solid though I don't agree with the notion of him being unrivaled. Vitiate is the best example for this. Caedus and Plagueis should give him a good fight too.
👆 Very reasonable.
DE Sidious can casually create giant force storms and open up wormholes mid fight with a gesture. That mixed with his dueling skills and his #1 spot is still safe.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not asserting that this was actually the case but it is a possibility unless confirmed otherwise in literature. I don't recall Darth Sidious abusing Count Dooku on any other occasion, the former might be an abusing sexist racist d*** but he have respected a few (e.g. Darth Malgus) in his views.My argument is based on the history between Assaj Ventress and Count Dooku. The latter choked the former with a minor gesture on one occasion and it seemed as if the former would be fodder for the latter in an actual confrontation. However, this turned out to be false, not asserting that the former is much of a threat to the latter but wasn't fodder either and the confrontation didn't just end at the former getting choked to death.
Not surprisingly, Assaj was actually fodder for Yoda and would be for Sidious. I have always held the impression that Yoda had held back against Count Dooku on Geonosis, the former had soft corner for the latter and attempted to redeem the latter at every opportunity. I don't think that Count Dooku can give Yoda and Sidious a good challenge in a serious confrontation. Up against Sidious, I don't think that Count Dooku would do noticeably better then lets say Darth Maul.
Count Dooku was powerful undoubtedly and I have always considered him as a benchmark to measure other characters but he is heavily outclassed by some in recent updates. I don't regard him TOP 10 material to be honest, not even close.
@Sinious
You concede too much after formulating a good argument. If Emperor Vitiate is stronger then Darth Sidious and Revan is stronger then Yoda, this isn't an end of the world, and neither fans should be ashamed to believe in this possibility. Star Wars will never be the same in Legends.
Unless you can prove that Dooku wouldn't expect an attack when all the evidence strongly suggests otherwise, then you have no case. Hell, after one force choke from Plagueis, Sidious learned to never have his guard down when in Plagueis' presence, so why should I assume Dooku would ever be stupid enough have his guard lowered when speaking to someone who abuses his power and is far more sadistic than Plagueis? There's a reason Dooku shits his pants just by speaking to Sidious over hologram, and TCW episode showed us why.
Your example with Ventress is bad since she has grown more powerful since Dooku attacked her on Vjun. Regardless, Dooku has consistently manhandled Ventress with the force. In fact, he's dominated her and two other nightsisters at the same time with a force attack, which is a sheer level of dominance I have yet to see Revan replicate on another powerful force user.
^Dooku was not only blind here, but disoriented from being drugged, and manages to finish the fight with a force attack that sends them flying a great distance out of the window as opposed to Revan force pushing Satele and company some feet. During their one on one, Ventress clashed sabers with Dooku for about ten seconds or less before being casually force dominated (anyone who knows about Ventress, knows she's a powerhouse on her own, and has some exceptional force feats).
Revan finally has some new feats of attacking other powerful force users with the force that knocks them off their feet and you and Ant get carried away when Dooku's been shown to do this type of thing on a regular basis.
@Trocity, that's why I'm not even bringing DE Sidious in this. That wouldn't even be a fair argument.
How is Dooku dominating 2 featless witches and Ventress even comparable to doing it to Satele, Theron, Marr, Beniko, Shae, Jakorro, and the Emperor's Wrath?
Dominating the Wrath alone is more impressive then what Dooku did there. Add in the others? It is not even comparable in any way, shape, form, or mental illness.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
But the text doesn't support this, as I've already proven with Skillz.Vitiate is said to have watched "proceedings with a cold detachment" but the text also states that Vitiate "stood perfectly still, focusing and channeling his power" as Revan makes his initial charge, to the extent that he only attacks "at the last possible instant."
The text doesn't portray Vitiate as firing off-the-cuff and casual attacks. His first two moves {the initial TK blast & his attempt to dominate Revan's mind} were explicitly stated to be the product of effort and gathered energies.
Now if you want to argue that the gap widened considerably between Revan and Vitiate later on, that's your prerogative, but the fact of the matter is that it's not there in the book.
He did channel his power but not for a single attack. I'd say its a dark side version of meditating though it(the med) most likely lasted a few seconds as everything happened really fast there.
Vitiate didnt see Revan as a threat until he got struck in the chest with a bolt of lightning. You would agree with this part right? Prior to this, his attacks were a lot weaker than his true capacity. You'd also agree with this too I assume? When he gets hit on the chest, there is a clear change in every aspect of the fight:
" It struck the Emperor in the chest, sending him sliding several meters back on the floor. For the first time the Sith’s emotionless veneer cracked as he let out a primal hiss of hate. The sound sent shivers down Revan’s spine.
The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.
Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.
A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.
Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him."
His mentality along with his emotions changed as he felt rage and for the first time, he sent an attack that revealed his true power which utterly crushed Revan.
What part of any of this do we disagree on?
Originally posted by Trocity
👆 Very reasonable.
Sarcasm won't get you anywhere in life, son. 😐
