@ The_Tempest
Jace Malcom took advantage of the situation of Malgus's struggle with Satele Shan, nothing more. He is one of the best soldiers of the Republic but he is fodder for Malgus in a fair confrontation and he is not beating Dooku. His gear made it possible for him to survive Malgus's lightning blast, he would have been toast otherwise. His gear contains absorbing materials or something.
Malgus's proficiency in lightning is really impressive in literature, footage doesn't do justice to him.
However, if you really want to know about a normal individual who can take down even powerful Force-users, check on Grand Champion of SWTOR. That guy is goku of normal individuals in Star Wars, but he is a cyborg.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The 'strike team' that consisted of Scourge and The Exile, who were outclassed by a Dark Council member that was in turn utterly stomped by Revan himself? To imply that they'd be more than mere distractions at best against Vitiate would require the gulf between Nyriss, Revan, and Vitiate to be much smaller than I suspect you'd be willing to admit.
It's not my fault that Drew is a bad, inconsistent, and egregious failure of a writer. They were weak nobodies in the face of a dark council member, who was a weak nobody in the face of Revan, who was solidly inferior to Vitiate. It's pretty obvious that since his full power completely overwhelmed Revan, that they'd be nothing but ragdoll fodder for him. Yet at their arrival, he changed from a cold, confident individual into one who was visibly hesitant.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You're implying that Vitiate half-assed his initial attacks, which isn't the case:His opponent stood perfectly still, [b]focusing and channeling his power.
At the last possible instant, the Emperor unleashed a wave of energy that swept Revan off his feet and sent him flying backward.Revan twisted in midair so that he was able to roll with the impact when he landed. He quickly sprang back to his feet and advanced again, moving more slowly this time.
At no point was Vitiate pulling his punches: he tries to flatten Revan with TK and fails before proceeding to his patented mind-haxxx. The text notes that both attacks required substantial effort on Vitiate's part.[/B]
Which again shows that Vitiate (at least as of Revan) couldn't outright ragdoll Revan, something I haven't once given acceptance to. And it's pretty much common knowledge, and something you advocate strongly, that Vitiate's mind domination always requires substantial effort when used unless he has been given somewhat extensive preparation. His fight against the Hero of Tython on Kaas shows what he does when an individual legitimately challenges his power.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
And even after that, Revan puts Vitiate on his ass twice. The idea that Vitiate was pulling a Sidious to Revan's Maul&Opress is completely without merit.
Vitiate most certainly wasn't pulling that, otherwise he would have stomped Revan outright. This doesn't change that when Vitiate brings his full power to bear, it isn't a Yoda vs. Sidious-type struggle. Vitiate completely, utterly, and instantly breaks his defense.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
There again, no one is contesting that Vitiate was clearly the superior Force adept. But not only does the text not support the notion of a stomp, it goes to great lengths to undermine that idea.The gap is much narrower than you'd care to admit. But you don't have to admit it: it's there in the text and, unfortunately, I can read. 😬
I never advocated a complete stomp ala Ventress vs. Yoda. The fact that Vitiate had to pull out his greatest power shows this. It's just that Vitiate's full wrath against Revan's, Vitiate's was very solidly superior. Meaning that in the culimination of their respective power levels, Revan doesn't come exceedingly close to the Emperor at all.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well that's an entirely different animal, isn't it?
An animal that makes what we're talking about irrelevant in the grand scheme. SoR Vitiate is stated multiple times (and shown, tbh) to be far above anyone in the era, including the Hero of Tython you believe is capable of overwhelming a fully-powered 1.0 Vitiate.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
It's not my fault that Drew is a bad, inconsistent, and egregious failure of a writer.
You purchase his work and support SWTOR, which generates interest and demand in his chosen era and in turn prompts LFL to pay him large sums of money to put pen to paper. You are indeed part of the problem. uhuh
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
They were weak nobodies in the face of a dark council member, who was a weak nobody in the face of Revan, who was solidly inferior to Vitiate. It's pretty obvious that since his full power completely overwhelmed Revan, that they'd be nothing but ragdoll fodder for him. Yet at their arrival, he changed from a cold, confident individual into one who was visibly hesitant.
Perhaps because the gulf between Revan and Vitiate isn't quite as pronounced as yousome misguided souls desperately wish to believe?
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Which again shows that Vitiate (at least as of Revan) couldn't outright ragdoll Revan, something I haven't once given acceptance to.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And it's pretty much common knowledge, and something you advocate strongly, that Vitiate's mind domination always requires substantial effort when used unless he has been given somewhat extensive preparation. His fight against the Hero of Tython on Kaas shows what he does when an individual legitimately challenges his power.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Vitiate most certainly wasn't pulling that, otherwise he would have stomped Revan outright.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I never advocated a complete stomp ala Ventress vs. Yoda. The fact that Vitiate had to pull out his greatest power shows this.
All these things please me.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
This doesn't change that when Vitiate brings his full power to bear, it isn't a Yoda vs. Sidious-type struggle. Vitiate completely, utterly, and instantly breaks his defense.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
It's just that Vitiate's full wrath against Revan's, Vitiate's was very solidly superior. Meaning that in the culimination of their respective power levels, Revan doesn't come exceedingly close to the Emperor at all.
But these things do not.
I've already demonstrated that Viti tried to subdue Revan outright with focused TK and then subversively with focused TP—both attacks to which the text observe saw Viti either channeling his powers until the very last possible instant or diverting a considerable amount of effort and attention—and both attempts failed. You're dodging the issue: the text makes it clear that Viti applied serious effort to the task of putting Revan down before he attacked him with a charged volley of Force lightning. In the spirit of honesty and objectivity, I'd like you to acknowledge this. Otherwise it looks very much like you're perpetuating the notion that Viti was half-assing his performance until Revan floored him a second time, which is not true. The fact of the matter is that it took Vitiate's very best efforts to put Revan down, which may not have happened at all had Revan exploited Vitiate's effort as he'd done previously in the duel.
I don't question that Vitiate > Revan. But the text does not support the notion of a colossal disparity.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
An animal that makes what we're talking about irrelevant in the grand scheme. SoR Vitiate is stated multiple times (and shown, tbh) to be far above anyone in the era, including the Hero of Tython you believe is capable of overwhelming a fully-powered 1.0 Vitiate.
He's certainly alleged by certain characters to be far above anyone in the era. Setting aside the obvious weakness of an argument reliant on potentially hyperbolic testimony from fallible third party characters, what exactly has Vitiate demonstrated in this expansion to be worthy of such acclaim? Unless I skipped a particularly relevant cutscene, not a damn thing.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You purchase his work and support SWTOR, which generates interest and demand in his chosen era and in turn prompts LFL to pay him large sums of money to put pen to paper. You are indeed part of the problem. uhuh
Then perhaps my insidious involvement should be eliminated, eh?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Perhaps because the gulf between Revan and Vitiate isn't quite as pronounced asyousome misguided souls desperately wish to believe?
Not at all. The fact of the matter is based on feats from the novel, Meetra and Scourge were less than nothing to Vitiate. You'd probably have to believe Revan is legitimately equal to Vitiate for them to tip the scales. Which still fails to explain how he went from being cold and confident to hesitant and stalling.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
All these things please me.
👆
Originally posted by The_Tempest
But these things do not.
👇
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I've already demonstrated that Viti tried to subdue Revan outright with focused TK and then subversively with focused TP—both attacks to which the text observe saw Viti either channeling his powers until the very last possible instant or diverting a considerable amount of effort and attention—and both attempts [b]failed. You're dodging the issue: the text makes it clear that Viti applied serious effort to the task of putting Revan down before he attacked him with a charged volley of Force lightning. In the spirit of honesty and objectivity, I'd like you to acknowledge this. Otherwise it looks very much like you're perpetuating the notion that Viti was half-assing his performance until Revan floored him a second time, which is not true. The fact of the matter is that it took Vitiate's very best efforts to put Revan down, which may not have happened at all had Revan exploited Vitiate's effort as he'd done previously in the duel.I don't question that Vitiate > Revan. But the text does not support the notion of a colossal disparity.[/B]
Just to get this piece out of the way, yes, he did charge a force wave and blast Revan. And yes, he diverted significant effort in dominating Revan's mind (which is irrelevant because it almost always does anyways.) This doesn't change the fact that after he was cast down the 2nd time, he visibly changed his demeanor from a cold and confident one into a hateful, vengeful, no more bullshit one. Which is obviously why he unleashed his most potent power, which completely and instantly overwhelmed Revan. Do you question that Revan was instantly overwhelmed once the Emperor blasted him? It took his best effort, but Revan was put down instantly from that best effort. Solid superiority.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
He's certainly alleged by certain characters to be far above anyone in the era. Setting aside the obvious weakness of an argument reliant on potentially hyperbolic testimony from fallible third party characters, what exactly has Vitiate demonstrated in this expansion to be worthy of such acclaim? Unless I skipped a particularly relevant cutscene, not a damn thing.
😬
The same Hero of Tython you believe defeated a fully-powered Emperor Vitiate was told by spirit Revan that he could not defeat dark Revan alone. The same dark Revan who completely shit his pants when the Emperor returned (and not at the level of power Revan even intended.) When Revan himself says that Dark Revan is too weak to last against the Emperor, coupled with multiple other character statements (the infamous dread master quote is from the Wrath, who knows the power of both the Emperor and the Dread Masters,) that are obviously meant to inform the player just how powerful the Emperor actually is, you know there's a change in the Vitiate who was taken down by the Hero of Tython and the Vitiate described in 3.0.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Then perhaps my insidious involvement should be eliminated, eh?
Perhaps. uhuh
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Not at all. The fact of the matter is based on feats from the novel, Meetra and Scourge were less than nothing to Vitiate. You'd probably have to believe Revan is legitimately equal to Vitiate for them to tip the scales. Which still fails to explain how he went from being cold and confident to hesitant and stalling.
The only plausible explanation for Viti's hesitation has already been offered {by me, unsurprisingly}: the disparity between Viti and Revan isn't particularly vast.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Just to get this piece out of the way, yes, he did charge a force wave and blast Revan. And yes, he diverted significant effort in dominating Revan's mind (which is irrelevant because it almost always does anyways.)
excellent
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
This doesn't change the fact that after he was cast down the 2nd time, he visibly changed his demeanor from a cold and confident one into a hateful, vengeful, no more bullshit one.
uhuh
This implies that Viti's previous efforts were "bullshit" which is not true and we're right back to square one.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Which is obviously why he unleashed his most potent power, which completely and instantly overwhelmed Revan. Do you question that Revan was instantly overwhelmed once the Emperor blasted him? It took his best effort, but Revan was put down instantly from that best effort. Solid superiority.
I don't question Vitiate's "solid superiority." But we need only look at Star Wars: The Clone Wars to see that Anakin can't contend with Dooku's lightning and yet is still powerful and skilled enough to legitimately press the Count in a fight. So too is Revan skilled and powerful enough to legitimately challenge Viti, even on a dark side nexus.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
😬The same Hero of Tython you believe defeated a fully-powered Emperor Vitiate was told by spirit Revan that he could not defeat dark Revan alone. The same dark Revan who completely shit his pants when the Emperor returned (and not at the level of power Revan even intended.) When Revan himself says that Dark Revan is too weak to last against the Emperor, coupled with multiple other character statements (the infamous dread master quote is from the Wrath, who knows the power of both the Emperor and the Dread Masters,) that are obviously meant to inform the player just how powerful the Emperor actually is, you know there's a change in the Vitiate who was taken down by the Hero of Tython and the Vitiate described in 3.0.
All of these are statements from fallible third parties that may very well be hyperbolic, as I said. Kreia in KotOR 2 likened the great duelists of her age to children with toys next to the prowess of the ancient Sith. Does that really mean that any ancient Sith Lord would stomp the likes of Revan, Malak, Sion, Nihilus?
We question such statements for a very good reason.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Perhaps. uhuh
Your power wanes.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The only plausible explanation for Viti's hesitation has already been offered {by me, unsurprisingly}: the disparity between Viti and Revan isn't particularly vast.
Originally posted by Me
You'd probably have to believe Revan is legitimately equal to Vitiate for them to tip the scales. Which still fails to explain how he went from being cold and confident to hesitant and stalling.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
excellent
Thought I'd leave you a few crumbs.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
uhuhThis implies that Viti's previous efforts were "bullshit" which is not true and we're right back to square one.
How about I take out the "no more bullshit" part and you concede this point, because the text bends to my will now.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I don't question Vitiate's "solid superiority."
Originally posted by You
excellent
Originally posted by The_Tempest
But we need only look at Star Wars: The Clone Wars to see that Anakin can't contend with Dooku's lightning and yet is still powerful and skilled enough to legitimately press the Count in a fight. So too is Revan skilled and powerful enough to legitimately challenge Viti, even on a dark side nexus.
The only times during which Anakin was taken aback by Dooku's lightning were when he was being either reckless or was focusing on choking his ass to death. Not only is Revan's force mastery far superior to Anakin's, but he was actively preparing his defense. I don't doubt Revan can last against (Revan) Viti, but to say he's gonna steal the throne is ludicrous.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
All of these are statements from fallible third parties that may very well be hyperbolic, as I said. Kreia in KotOR 2 likened the great duelists of her age to children with toys next to the prowess of the ancient Sith. Does that really mean that any ancient Sith Lord would stomp the likes of Revan, Malak, Sion, Nihilus?We question such statements for a very good reason.
This is fairly egregious if you're trying to compare the quality of the "fallible third parties." The Wrath directly knows the power of the Emperor and the Dread Masters, so his comparison is completely backed up. And of course Revan knows his own power as well as Vitiate's, so him fellating the Emperor and being scared shitless by him is also warranted. Meanwhile, you believe that Darth Traya, the haggard witch who existed a millenia after any of these ancient sith were even alive, is comparably fallible?
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
1. Grandmaster Luke Skywalker
2. Grandmaster Yoda
3. Revan Reborn
4. Jacen Solo
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
5. Hero of Tython/Mace Windu
6. Hero of Tython/Mace Windu
7. Anakin Skywalker
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
8. Count Dooku
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
9. Cade Skywalker
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
10. Barsen'thor