Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because Revan is Force pummeling straight out of the academy, he's destroying the second strongest Sith in the Empire with skills he doesn't have, and he's trying to annihilate the woman he's in love with. Cause that's how life works.
The Barsen'thor was force pummeling straight out of the academy. It happens. Theres no source that states that Revan didn't fight and win most of his duels primarily with the Force. In fact, Avellone agreed with that assessment iirc. Also beating Bastila with the Force would be more safe than attacking her with a lightsaber.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except to be called a warrior by a Mandalorian means martial might, which the Barsen'thor has established little of.
Nah, it just establishes strength in general. Mandalorians don't give a shit about if you use the Force or not. And anyway, that's just speculation. We don't know the context to which he was referring to.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The Mandalorians do not respect the use of the Force, as established in KotOR II.
Canderous has no problem with it.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except it was stated to be because of Revan's speed and skill, and Brianna stated that Revan fought with Echani-level precog.
No it wasn't and who cares about his precog.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Compared to Zannah's nothing, I'd have to disagree.
Ok, now you're just trolling me. Zannah's lightsaber style and ability is well established. Darth Bane wasn't able to get through her defense and at one point she was described as easily blocking his attacks. That's >>> anything Revan has done.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
A lightsaber is a melee weapon last I checked, and when going up against cortosis blades and Imperial Guard staves, skill matters.
Vibroswords and staves are pretty different from lightsabers. Also Revan's skill didn't matter when he fought that Guardsman.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Well as long as we're just going to ignore statements made about characters fighting styles, sure. We also can just go ahead and ignore the quotes about all of the duels Zannah's been in as well. Let's go with that.
If by statements you mean the statements Ant made about Revan's fighting style, then yeah you probably should ignore that stuff.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
This is about you putting Zannah on Bane's level, which is something I've seen you do everywhere, not about Revan being on Bane's level.
Zannah is on Bane's level. And Revan isn't. 😬
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Zannah's illusions take time to prepare off nexus. And this is about Revan's mental fortitude, not his ability to not be dominated.
Nope:
"She could make them see nightmares as reality; she could cause their deepest fears to manifest as demons of the psyche. She could, and had, rip the minds of her enemies apart with a simple thought and a gesture."
Pretty instant. And Revan's mental fortitude isn't so hot with him being crazy and everything.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Zannah's illusions aren't as unstoppable as you try to make them seem. Bane shrugged them off on nexus. I see no reason why Revan wouldn't off.
Bane had already dealt with his issues and had for decades. Revan is fresh from skinny-dipping in Vitiate's mind and batshit. He ain't resisting.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
She doesn't even fight offensively. I'd also like to know why Zannah is faster than Revan, but I'm sure it'll boil down to because reasons.
She does with her mental attacks. Zannah is faster than Revan because Bane is faster than Revan and Zannah was matching him for speed.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
She didn't win using lightsaber prowse, but okay.
I wasn't referring to that.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because Lightning is the only Force power Revan has at his disposal. His TK eclipses just about any none Sorcery feat Zannah has ever accomplished.
I edited in my thoughts about his TK. It's not going to go anywhere.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Revan, in TOR, was far from half trained in lightsaber techniques, stated to have the skills of an elite commando and outdueled plenty of Dark Jedi, and Sith masters. Many of which were veterans of the Mandalorian Wars. Outdueled Darth Malak, battled the elites of the Star Forge, and went toe-to-toe with foes that even the Dark Council is wary off and pulled asteroids beyond the scope of anything Zannah has ever contended with. Comparing Zannah performance then to any Revan anywhere is an insult.
🙄
Way to miss the point dingus. I was pointing out that Zannah was only half-trained and 20 when she fought Sarro. If Revan had been in a similar state and faced him, he wouldn't do so great either.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's hardly a point in Zannah's favor. Zannah was never, and will not ever, be comparable to Orbalisk Bane.
That remains to be seen. And you miss the point again. Apprentice Zannah was demolished by Orb Bane, and you're trying to use that against her. Despite the fact that Revan would be similarly demolished.
Disclaimer: I will not be able to respond to your response until 9/13/2014 (Saturday) or 9/14/2014 (Sunday).
------ ------ ------
It has been brought to my attention through the replies on this topic, along with other conversations with members that this topic is being watched over with great interest.
For the sake of my omniscient personality, please look at the below quote. I grow tired of Neph repeating this same thing over and over again. I hate to see him embarrassed:
Originally posted by Nephthys
Funny, since your previous response was awful. Stop wasting our time by bringing up blatant untruths and pointless, irrelevant bullshit.
Right, except one was against a berserk Darth motherfvcking Bane, one of the top 10 strongest Sith of all time and the other was against an incredibly skilled swordsman who was larger and stronger than even Bane was who was empowered by Battle Meditation. Frankly that she was able to still put up a decent fight against both (particularly Bane imo) while still half-trained is highly impressive. Revan half-way through his run would get utterly stomped by both. erm
Did you miss the part where I said "lightsaber fight"? None of what you just said has been confirmed to have been done with Revan's lightsaber skill.
Of course. But as of DoE I do consider her defense to be pretty close. Considering she could defend against Bane, who I rate extremely highly as a swordsman, with only being slowly pushed back I don't think there are many who can penetrate her defense.
I could care less about your Darth Bane wank. He failed to defend himself against a few mercenaries. A defense cannot be invincible if it can be penetrated. 😐
Out of all of Darth Zannah's official duels (she has had four), she was losing in everyone one besides against a wannabee Dark Jedi who isn't more powerful then Ahsoka Tano.Except darkside on the planet was sealed away. In DoE Zannah specifically says it's been "buried for centuries".
Being burred for so long means it would have eventually accumulated a strong taint in the area around it. That is how Force nexus' work.
And don't try to educate me on how they work, being the person who says Palpatine and Darth Nihilus' mask isn't one. 🙄
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Below is the argument revolving around Darth Zannah's lack of foresight, a factor vital to Revan's easy victory over her:It's not said that she didn't sense the attack. That she reacted by instinct doesn't imply that. That's typically how a Jedi's danger sense is depicted as, something that triggers the sense and is instinctively reacted to.
What? Doing something by instinct means you do it without knowledge on it; a natural ability.
She was unable to foresee Darth Bane's attack until her own natural reactions had to take over and save herself from certain death.
This is not the only time she was nearly killed due to lack of foresight. I have made a list of all the times:
1.) Darth Bane was able to attack her with sudden Force attacks on numerous occasions, even when she was fully trained, resulting in her losing all advantages.
2.) Darth Zannah was unable to predict and foresee Darth Bane attacking her after her betrayal, nearly resulting in Darth Bane killing her in one stroke.
3.) Darth Zannah was unable to anticipate Sarro Xaj's attacks, nearly resulting in her death. It was only Darth Bane's actions that saved her.
4.) Darth Zannah fell over a grave. 😐
5.) Darth Zannah was losing blantly in the lightsaber duel portion of her final battle due to Darth Bane's unpredictability, something you conceded to below:Ok, conceded but this doesn't mean anything like that Bane was overpowering her defense. He was simply changing the angles he was attacking from at random intervals causing her to have to reposition her wall of defense. She was still blocking him fine and shows absolutely no strain in doing so. All Bane was achieving was pushing her back, not pressing her guard.
Darth Bane's unpredictable attacks was disrupting her defense rhythm, forcing her to go on a constant retreat back to the shuttle. Revan, like Bane, will take advantage of her lack of foresight. I cover this more later.
And your comparison is pathetic. Obi-Wan was lifted off his feet for something like a full second and held, of course he could react to that. Zannah was hit by a sudden Force Push in the middle of talking. One is an extended grab and the other is a sudden strike. And unlike Obi-Wan, Zannah actually did react to the attack before being hit with it and blocked it partially. If Obi-Wan truly only reacted after being hit then Zannahs feat is superior.
He tried to react the instant he was lifted though, not while held by Dooku's invisible grip. Huge difference.
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Below is the arguments revolving around Revan's speed capabilities: Lol, you say that as if Kenobi didn't have superior speed and reaction feats to Revan. Since he, you know, actually has some! laughing
This is some of the biggest bullshit you've ever given me. So instead of having actual feats Revan is faster..... because he's just better ok!
Either if it is Palpatine or Yoda or Luke Skywalker, no Force-user can run at blindly speeds without Force augmentation, where they both use the Force to increase their muscle speed and to slow down their perception of the world. The increased speed of the Force-user enabled them to see the world and the entities around them in slow motion, allowing them to dodge attacks easily and attack quicker with greater accuracy. The amount of boost a user would have is dependent on their own command of the Force. This is all canon, and why Force-users like Palpatine and Luke Skywalker are faster then Agen Kolar and Stormtroopers. Naturally it can be assume Revan's speed is up with Darth Malgus and Darth Vader. Darth Zannah is not on this same level. Revan has been giving much superior hype for his raw command of the Force, ranging from being said to be "like the heart of the Force" to wielding "tremendous power" to even "one of the most powerful individuals in the [Star Wars] universe." They even said Revan was more powerful then Darth Nox's and the Emperor's Wrath's "imagination." Being merely a Banite Sith does not classify Zannah above Revan. Notice how in Drew's interviews he always says "Bane and Revan are the best", not "Bane, Revan, and Zannah are the best."
Nope. Nothing in here was canonically done with his lightsaber. A simple interpretation for Brianna's words is "If only Father had been faster.... he wouldn't have gotten his face melted off by lightning." And Avellone could easily mean that few could face him because of his Force powers. As I recall, he did say that's what Revan specialised in.
Read above. The game even made special mention of that despite Yusanis's skills and vibro-blade, he still lost. There was no mention of any Force attacks. And you can't really run from lightning. 😬
Revan contending with Vitiate (who has no speed feats either! laughing ) proves nothing. Revan's incredible command of the Force (which is bs since Zannah has all the force knowledge Revan does and more) proves nothing. Revan having no feats to his name.... proves nothing. Zannah is faster because she kept up and easily blocked attacks from a person with actual good speed feats. Deal with it.
*snip*
Yeah, Kenobi was flat out running backwards at points. There was nothing slow about his retreat. erm
As I said, Zannah wasn't being overpowered at all.
Kenobi was running backwards for what seemed to be a tactical adjustment and advantage. There is no reason to continue fighting with lava pouring on you.
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And Darth Bane was clearly overpowering Darth Zannnah for the first portion of the battle. Then he resorted to unpredictability, which also worked great:
"Zannah expected Bane to come at her aggressively, but even so she was caught off guard by the ferociousness of his attack. He opened with a series of two-handed overhead chops, using his great height to bring his blade hacking down at her from above. She easily blocked each blow, but the momentum of the crushing impact caused her to stagger back, throwing her off balance. She recovered quickly, however, spinning out of the way when he followed up with a low, looping swipe meant to hew her off at the knees. She retaliated with a quick jab with the tip of one of her blades toward Bane's face, but he ducked his head to the side and came back with a wide-arcing, single-handed slash at chest level. Zannah intercepted his blade with one of her own, angling her weapon so that the momentum of Bane's attack was redirected downward, sending the tip of his lightsaber into the dirt. This should have exposed him to a counterthrust, but he was already reacting to her move, driving his entire body forward into Zannah's before she could bring her weapon up. His weight slammed into her, knocking her back as Bane snapped his neck forward. Zannah threw her head back just in time, and the head-butt that would have smashed her face glanced off her chin instead."
--Star Wars Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil
Uh, I don't think he was reacting consciously actually. No moreso than Bane or Zannah do. Just because he used a feint doesn't mean shit.
Uh what? He was able to consciously predict the attack of the Imperial Guard (that is the way of the Echani). And you can't predict a war by instinct, obviously. That just doesn't make much sense.
It has been stated that Battle Precognition is the art of "reading your opponents". You can't really read and analyze them if it's by a sudden instinct. 😬
The point of that is "to know where an opponent is going to strike before it connects" so you can "anticipate it, and then strike against them." Battle Precognition is different then normal Precognition. 🙂I don't recall anything indicating Revan was fighting non-stop for an hour. He obviously had moments to catch his breath and rejuvenate himself. And fighting hordes of fodder isn't the same as trying to break through Zannah's defense.
"The next hour is spent frantically blasting, swiping, and crushing countless Dark Jedi and Sith heavy weapons and elite troopers on your way through the decks of the space station."
--Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide
Nope. It never states jack shit about the attack being unpredictable or random or anything like that. It is implying speed, yes, and that she had to work to repel the attack, but you're completely making shit up about the attack being ZOMG unpredictable!
Re-read the quote. The blade changed directions (unpredictability) some suddenly (speed) she had to scramble to defend herself against it.
*snip*
This is actually rather annoying, because I established a while back that Revan used numerous forms in his fight with the Imperial Guard. You had no issues with me saying such. And I am not the only one in such a belief, many other members on here and other forums feel the same way. The pictures I gave you were official canonical illustrations of the forms, which Revan matched perfectly. I even told you in a thread that in a email with Drew, he confirmed my question when asking him if Revan was using numerous lightsaber forms. That is where the quote "[he] draws on bits of everything here and there." came from. 😐 So yes, Revan used Ataru and Niman in that battle, and is confirmed to draw on various lightsaber forms in his style.
You continue to say Revan is not unpredictable, which makes no sense. We have established on this forum that Revan is highly unpredictable due to two main factors. Firstly, his lightsaber style. He draws on pieces from all forms, and uses them at complete random. We have seen on two occasions of him rapidly changing styles back and forth. Once from Niman to Ataru to Niman. Also from Juyo to Shii-Cho. Even in his own select styles, you will still see random hints from various other forms. I have established in this thread that Revan has knowledge on all lightsaber forms, something also supported from Drew Karpyshyn. Revan's unpredictability also comes from his ability to change his Force attacks to his lightsaber swings, which was heavily demonstrated in the Foundry. Numerous scripted attacks had Force pushes and a "series of lightsaber attacks" working together. For more information on this, checkout this thread. Zannah will not be able to keep up with the rapid changes of styles or the sudden Force pushes (both of which she has demonstrably failed to defend herself against in the past.)
Finally, Zannah's style revolves around tiring out the opponent. Let alone Revan's insane endurance which surpasses Zannah by tiers, another factor must be considered. This is "Revan Reborn", aka Revan in the Foundry. In this state, he can channel his energies to grow more powerful as the battle continues. To be in this state, he must be in perfect balance however, and cannot channel his energies when pushed into the Dark Side. I made a thread about it here. Below I will quote from you the part I am discussing:
"Revan has begun to channel the Force to become more powerful!"
―Star Wars The Old Republic
During the fight in the Foundry, Revan channels his energies of the Light and Darkness through him to become more powerful. This ability provides Revan with a boost through using his own energies and the Force, not others, making the power always available for him in other duels or battles. Luke Skywalker and Palpatine have also demonstrated the ability to channel the Force through them in similar ways, but they called off of power that is not their own. In Luke's situation, “light and hope and love” from others; from Palpatine's, the ancient Sith spirits. While this originally seems to many like game-mechanics, it is not, and actually mentioned in Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan.
"Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in it's purest form."
―Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan
In a state of absolute balance, which Revan was in during his fight with the Sith Emperor, and also for the first half of the battle with the Imperial Strike Team, Revan has three options to do when he opens himself up to the Force. He can release the energies in a raw flash of light and power, like he did against the Sith Emperor. He can focus his energies, resulting in a contained yet pressured blast of energy, similar to Exar Kun. Finally, he can channel his energies, allowing it to cycle and stream back through him, replenishing his resolve, reserve, and strength through temporarily amplifying his midichlorians. This technique has no has real vulnerabilities or downfalls as long as Revan stays in balance, for the energy wasted in opening himself up to the Force is nearly instantly replenished by the new energies. Combine this with Revan's amazing endurance (which allows him to battle Dark Jedi for "an hour" on the Star Forge, and then go on to battle Bastila Shan, the infinite droid army, and then Darth Malak), and it will be clear that nearly no opponent will be able to outlast Revan. In fact, if Revan stays in balance the entire fight, he can finish the battle stronger then before.
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Revan wins this fight. His unpredictability can breach Darth Zannah's defense, his Force powers are stronger, and his endurance and channeling enable him to not tire by merely attacking a spinning blade. Zannah is outclassed in every category, including Telepathy. Manipulating the Emperor is far more impressive then Set Harth. Darth Zannah even failed to breach Darth Bane. 😎
Originally posted by Nephthys
The Barsen'thor was force pummeling straight out of the academy.
It happens. Theres no source that states that Revan didn't fight and win most of his duels primarily with the Force.
In fact, Avellone agreed with that assessment iirc. Also beating Bastila with the Force would be more safe than attacking her with a lightsaber.
Nah, it just establishes strength in general. Mandalorians don't give a shit about if you use the Force or not. And anyway, that's just speculation. We don't know the context to which he was referring to.
Canderous has no problem with it.
No it wasn't and who cares about his precog.
Ok, now you're just trolling me. Zannah's lightsaber style and ability is well established. Darth Bane wasn't able to get through her defense and at one point she was described as easily blocking his attacks. That's >>> anything Revan has done.
Vibroswords and staves are pretty different from lightsabers. Also Revan's skill didn't matter when he fought that Guardsman.
If by statements you mean the statements Ant made about Revan's fighting style, then yeah you probably should ignore that stuff.
Zannah is on Bane's level. And Revan isn't. 😬
Nope:"She could make them see nightmares as reality; she could cause their deepest fears to manifest as demons of the psyche. She could, and had, rip the minds of her enemies apart with a simple thought and a gesture."
Pretty instant. And Revan's mental fortitude isn't so hot with him being crazy and everything.
Ant covered this pretty well, so I'm not going to get into it. It didn't work that way in any of the duels she fought with the higher ups of the novel, it won't work here.
Bane had already dealt with his issues and had for decades. Revan is fresh from skinny-dipping in Vitiate's mind and batshit. He ain't resisting.
She does with her mental attacks. Zannah is faster than Revan because Bane is faster than Revan and Zannah was matching him for speed.
I wasn't referring to that.
I edited in my thoughts about his TK. It's not going to go anywhere.
🙄Way to miss the point dingus. I was pointing out that Zannah was only half-trained and 20 when she fought Sarro. If Revan had been in a similar state and faced him, he wouldn't do so great either.
That remains to be seen. And you miss the point again. Apprentice Zannah was demolished by Orb Bane, and you're trying to use that against her. Despite the fact that Revan would be similarly demolished.
It's pretty lame that you're trying to make Sarro Xaj out to be some kind of no-name chump.
"In the gunner's chair across from the pilot was Sarro Xaj, the human male who had served as Raskta's Padawan on Ruusan. A year older than Johun, Sarro had olive-brown skin and a single topknot of black hair. He was also the largest human Johun had ever encountered. Over two meters tall and 150 kilos of raw muscle, he could easily be mistaken for a hairless Wookiee rather than a man. Yet despite his mass, he was still quick enough to snatch a zess-fly out of the air. Elevated to the rank of Jedi Knight seven years before, Sarro had chosen to follow in his Master's path, focusing on mastering a massive double-bladed lightsaber measuring almost three meters in length. Johun imagined there were few beings in the galaxy who could stand up under the ferocious assault of his weapon's blue blades."
He's immediately portrayed as being one of the very best lightsaber practitioners the Jedi had to offer, as well as an absolutely monstrous being that was as notably quick as he was big and strong. You can then factor in the fact that he was receiving the benefits of battle meditation in his battle with Zannah, which was described as being a pretty substantial boost:
"It had been many years since Farfalla had fought while empowered by Worror's battle meditation. He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel. The Force flowed through him with greater power, filling him with its might."
"Johun felt his strength and energy plummet, A wave of exhaustion and fatigue overwhelmed him, the beneficial effects of the battle meditation vanishing as Worror's concentration was broken."
Then you have these numerous demonstrations of skill and ability:
"And then her enemies fell on her. It took only seconds for her to realize that the bigger man was by far the more dangerous opponent. In the time it took for the smaller man to strike at her twice with his green blade, she had batted aside half a dozen attacks from the other. There was a marked difference in the style and effectiveness of their blows, as well. The skills of the Jedi with the green lightsaber were raw and basic. When he struck, it was with either strength or speed, but not both at the same time. His blade came in either high or low, but never altered its plane during the attack. In contrast, the big man attacked her from creative and unexpected angles, the massive blue blades changing course midthrust. Each offensive was a model of lethal efficiency-quick and powerful strikes and counterstrikes that kept an opponent guessing."
I know that people like to hate on Johun Othone, but the fact is he was a trained Jedi of many years with superhuman abilities like any Jedi, and Sarro seemed to be so quick that he produced three times his output, and this coming from a man who was even larger and physically stronger than Bane.
"The olive-skinned giant reared up to his full height; Zannah realized he was even taller and more heavily muscled than Bane. The air sizzled as his long lightsaber carved an elaborate flourish around his body, then another above his head. He smiled down at her knowingly."
"Zannah slid to the side, her spinning weapon redirecting the blade of her enemy away from her throat and harmlessly up over her shoulder. Its twin came in quickly from the other side at her hip, and she threw herself into a back handspring to avoid it, landing nimbly on her feet. Grimly, she realized that she'd never understood the true meaning of the term martial arts until now."
"The warrior assailing her had elevated the act of combat to its purest and highest form. He moved with the fluid grace of a dancer, his monstrous blade singing the deadly song of battle. He executed his moves with a perfect elegance born of obsession. Zannah knew it left him vulnerable to other forms of attack, but he pressed her so relentlessly that she never had a chance to effectively gather her power."
"Even though his technique was more refined than her Master's, she'd been able to withstand his assault... so far."
This is particularly notable considering Bane was an absolute prodigy that's demonstrated probably the greatest natural grasp with a lightsaber in the mythos, who by this time had spent many years dedicated to perfecting his skills.
"He came at her again, his blade changing directions so quickly in midstroke that it seemed to bend and curve."
All the evidence we have suggests that Sarro was an extremely impressive duelist even without the BM, so I fail to see how Zannah's performance against him is some kind of low showing, especially when you consider the fact that she obviously improved afterwards (I'll let people who've read DOE argue by just how much) and she did technically fulfill her form's primary objective (at least for what appears to have been a substantial amount of time), which was to go on the defensive and survive.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I already know of all those details. Having some hype due to Battle Meditation but no feats besides beating Zannah doesn't put him above Obi-Wan Kenobi.
A lot of what I posted had nothing to do with BM, such as the demonstrations of technical ability, his reputation as an expert duelist, and his physical dominance.
What's so amazing about Obi-Wan? I'm not sure I'd even consider him an elite member of his era, when you compare him to the likes of Yoda or Mace Windu. Sarro Xaj was seemingly an elite member of a more martial Jedi Order, and was having his powers substantially boosted, and a lesser version of Zannah was still able to hold him off, if not prevent herself form being dominated.