Originally posted by riv6672
Yup, it was all the woman's fault. Not.
yes, it was never the woman's fault, that is correct... the Bible is clearly saying that Eve was deceived, so the fault is not hers...
"Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned--"
Romans 5:12
it's clearly Adam's fault...
Originally posted by dyajeep
yes, it was [b]never the woman's fault, that is correct... the Bible is clearly saying that Eve was deceived, so the fault is not hers..."Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned--"
Romans 5:12it's clearly Adam's fault... [/B]
Yes and God still gave Eve the short end of the stick.
Total injustice that seems to escape that unique twisted Christian way of looking at things through their faith blinders.
Regards
DL
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Not really, women got it easy, Pain in childbirth versus working the fields all you're life.
Eve got more than that. He shall rule over you.
Adam, although more culpable, Gets a nice slave that he can boss around the field.
Who is better off? The master or the slave?
Regards
DL
Originally posted by Greatest I am
Eve got more than that. He shall rule over you.Adam, although more culpable, Gets a nice slave that he can boss around the field.
Who is better off? The master or the slave?
Regards
DL
Then the first words of the U.S. Declaration of Independence must also be wrong as it says "all men are created equal" and does not mention women.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Then the first words of the U.S. Declaration of Independence must also be wrong as it says "all men are created equal" and does not mention women."We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"
It does not showing just how misogynistic the U.S was back then.
No wonder women did not get the vote till what, 1920.
Regards
DL
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
I don't see your point as its changed.
My point is 2,000 years of Christian misogyny against women. Shame on Christians.
You may not want to believe those here but what if a Christian Bishop said about the same thing.
Would it matter or is your opinion stronger than his?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIyVWACkii0
Regards
DL
Originally posted by Greatest I am
Yes and God still gave Eve the short end of the stick.Total injustice that seems to escape that unique twisted Christian way of looking at things through their faith blinders.
Regards
DL
it was Adam's fault, but both Adam and Eve committed sin, and both of them was punished... i don't think about what punishment is heavier... but what the Bible implies is that Adam will not be saved and Eve has a chance... feel any better? 🙂
Originally posted by dyajeep
it was Adam's fault, but both Adam and Eve committed sin, and both of them was punished... i don't think about what punishment is heavier... but what the Bible implies is that Adam will not be saved and Eve has a chance... feel any better? 🙂
No. It is unsupported speculation.
So you think both punishments to be about equal even though Adam get to be lord over Eve.
Ask your wife if she agrees.
Regards
DL
Originally posted by Greatest I am
No. It is unsupported speculation.So you think both punishments to be about equal even though Adam get to be lord over Eve.
Ask your wife if she agrees.
Regards
DL
Eve disobeyed Adam and Adam disobeyed God. By every telling of the Fall that has a religious devotion Adam was the worst sinner.
Originally posted by Bentley
Eve disobeyed Adam and Adam disobeyed God. By every telling of the Fall that has a religious devotion Adam was the worst sinner.
Agreed yet he gets out of Eden with a slave wife who gets to suffer a hell of a lot more than Adam showing what a misogynistic religion Christianity is.
Regards
DL
Originally posted by riv6672
I beg to differ on people not being insulted by saying their religions are essentially just stories,
I refer to my own religious stories and characters as "Mythologies." That is the technically accurate term for it. The Greek Pantheon? Mythologies. Christian Godhead? Mythologies. A Pagan views Christian religious beliefs as mythologies.
But they are all mythologies.
Mythology:
"a body of myths, as that of a particular people or that relating to a particular person..."
To answer the thread topic with some Mormonism (because I honestly believe Mormons have just a tad bit extra on the Gospel to make much of this weird stuff make sense), Adam and Eve were naive, not dumb. Adam and Eve had intelligence and wisdom but lacked a great deal of knowledge since they were isolated from human culture. Also, God didn't send Satan. God banished him from heaven after his rebellion. He was banned to this plane of existence. Also, Adam and Eve existed at the same time as the rest of humanity and the story of their creation is 100% allegory and 100% not factual. You don't find this out in Mormonism until you go to the temple and do the crazy Mormon temple stuff. It is subtle but if you pay attention in the temple ceremonies, you'll see that Satan had been around doing his thing in the universe, on other worlds, for billions of years prior to earth. And humanity exited outside of Adam and Eve's little marriage in the Garden, as well.
Adam was not exempt from jack diddly or squat, as the OP implies. Adam made an informed decision to partake of the fruit.
Adam had 2 choices and both choices would result in him breaking God's commandments:
1. Obey the commandment to love Eve and "cleave unto her" and also have children.
2. Obey the commandment to not eat the forbidden fruit.
If he did 1, that means he would have to violate 2 (he would have to violate 2 in order to change his body to have children). If he did 2, that means he would violate 1 because he would lose Eve and wouldn't be able to stick to her.
And why was this obvious "doomed to fail" scenario setup? Because of the whole Free-Will thing God had going on. God wanted humanity to choose Him of its own free-will; not be forced to have to obey him. So He setup a scenario that he knew Satan would play into and that He knew Adam and Eve would fail. The kicker is, Adam and Eve both knew this scenario would be setup because, in Mormonism, we were all given callings to hold in the mortal plane and theirs was one of setting up humanity to experience mortality.
Eve was tempted because she wanted to do better for Adam and humanity. As we like to describe it in Mormonism, Eve knew that she had to eat the fruit in order to bare children. So she had a decision: remain in heavenly limbo indefinitely or get the Plan of Salvation started. Based on the very true temptations that Satan used to trick Eve (that she would gain the Knowledge of God), Eve made the choice to transgress God's commandment and partake of the fruit.
What we do not know is how long Satan tempted Eve. It could have been for centuries before she finally gave in. We also know Adam and Eve did not have the same bodies we did (allegorical, maybe) so their cognition may not be the same as ours. What we do know is both Adam and Eve chose to transgress God's commandments.
To put it more succinctly, here was Eve's conundrum:
1. Love Adam and multiply (have children).
2. Do not eat the forbidden fruit.
As we can see, Eve took the plunge. Some disparage Eve for this and make sexist statements that this is the bane of having women in our lives. In Mormonism, she is seen as, perhaps, the more righteous of the couple because she recognized the need to get the ball rolling.
So while Satan did what he was supposed to, as God predicted, so did Adam and Eve. Transgressing the Law was always the point of their stay in the Garden of Eden. They were never intended to stay there, indefinitely.
Some Mormons, including myself, speculate that God's spiritual reign on earth did not fully begin until Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden which was around 4000 B.C.E.
Some Mormons, but not myself, think the Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden since the Earth was formed over 4.5 billion years ago and that it took that long for Satan to tempt them to get the fruit. This interpretation means evolution still took place until modern humans evolved (because our mythology hints that humans existed outside of the Garden of Eden), this implies to these supporters that Eve made the choice when she thought the outside world was ready for them to face the consequences of their fruit eating actions.
As far as I believe, I don't know how much of the story is allegory and how much is real. Not even in Mormonism is it seen as important. But there was some Man, perhaps Hebrew, that was Adam and his wife Eve. Different names, most likely, but the story is about them. Adam, in Mormon mythology, is Michael the Archangel. He is a higher ranking angel than Lucifer before he fell. He was directly outside the Godhead (meaning, he was as close as possible to being Godlike without actually getting that title, officially) and, in Mormonism, he helped create the universe with Jehovah (Jesus Christ). So, this implies the Adam created the universe with Jehovah, knowing full well that he would have to go through the Garden of Eden trial and disobey God. I can speculate that he could not be part of the Godhead because he had to have imperfections enough to make the whole plan work (meaning, he would have to be able to break the Law).
Originally posted by Greatest I am
Not surprising that equality is not part of your options showing yet again what damage your religion has done to your thinking.Regards
DL
i don't know how you define "equality" but what you're saying is definitely wrong... the sin committed by Adam has nothing to do of him being superior to Eve... women are subjected to men when they are in a relationship as husbands and wives, if that's your point... but being single, i don't see any reason for men to rule over women... happy?
Originally posted by dyajeep
i don't know how you define "equality" but what you're saying is definitely wrong... the sin committed by Adam has nothing to do of him being superior to Eve... women are subjected to men when they are in a relationship as husbands and wives, if that's your point... but being single, i don't see any reason for men to rule over women... happy?
You are either not married or have not been married for long. 😂
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You are either not married or have not been married for long. 😂
problem is, GIA thinks women are being "downed" in the Bible, esp. Eve, but i don't see it... Adam ruling over Eve is because they are husband and wife... the man should lead the way, should drive the steering wheel... the Bible doesn't talk about a man and a woman who does not have a relationship...
Women are not supposed to be subservient to men. They are to be a "help-meet" to men.
http://godswordtowomen.org/help.htm
"HELP
Strong's # 5828 (Hebrew = ezer) aid: -- help
Strong's Root = # 5826 (Hebrew = azar) azar = prime root: to surround, ie, protect or aid: help, succour
Gesenius adds that the primary idea lies in girding, surrounding, hence defending
MEET
(Hebrew = kenegdo) corresponding to, counterpart to, equal to matching
The traditional teaching for the woman as help (meet) is that of assistant or helper subservient to the one being helped. This definition would appear to line up with Strong's definition of the word. However, if you look at the context of every other use of the word ezer in the scripture, you will see that ezer refers to either God or military allies. In all other cases the one giving the help is superior to the one receiving the help. Adding kenegdo (meet) modifies the meaning to that of equal rather than superior status. Scripture is so awesome. God says just what He means.
Dr. Susan Hyatt gives the following definition from her book In the Spirit We're Equal "Re: Hebrew ezer kenegdo. In Genesis 2:18, the word "helpmeet" does not occur. The Hebrew expression ezer kenegdo appears, meaning "one who is the same as the other and who surrounds, protects, aids, helps, supports." There is no indication of inferiority or of a secondary position in an hierarchical separation of the male and female "spheres" of responsibility, authority, or social position."
And this is probably the nail in the sexist coffin:
"The word ezer is used twice in the Old Testament to refer to the female and 14 times to refer to God. For example, in the Psalms when David says, "The Lord is my Helper, 'he uses the word ezer.'"
Let us be clear that the Apostle Paul was sexist and possibly homosexual (some say he was asexual but his hate for women and praise or elevation for men seems to indicate something other than asexual).