Why was Adam exempt from the transgression when the transgression was disobedience?

Started by Greatest I am6 pages
Originally posted by dyajeep
i don't know how you define "equality" but what you're saying is definitely wrong... the sin committed by Adam has nothing to do of him being superior to Eve... women are subjected to men when they are in a relationship as husbands and wives, if that's your point... but being single, i don't see any reason for men to rule over women... happy?

Adam could not sin as he did not know good and evil and had no evil intent.

If you or your God would condemn a person for something evil when they do not know evil then you both show that you know little about justice.

Look up mens rea and thank secular that it is not as barbaric and as backward as your view is.

Come back and tell us what you found. It will not be a hard search.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Bentley
So the worst sinner proved to be less moral than the less sinner? Color me surprised.

Sin is attributed to Adam and not Eve. She was deceive says God. Adam was not and flat out disobeyed.

Read your bible or even the quote in the O.P. sometime, for the first time.

Now explain why Christianity denies women equality regardless of what your myths say?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by dyajeep
problem is, GIA thinks women are being "downed" in the Bible, esp. Eve, but i don't see it... Adam ruling over Eve is because they are husband and wife... the man should lead the way, should drive the steering wheel... the Bible doesn't talk about a man and a woman who does not have a relationship...

So women should become slaves to men when they decide to marry one. How stupid can you get.

Equality is even written up in the U.N. Charter. You would not qualify to join the rest of the world.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by dadudemon
Women are not supposed to be subservient to men. They are to be a "help-meet" to men.

http://godswordtowomen.org/help.htm

"HELP
Strong's # 5828 (Hebrew = ezer) aid: -- help
Strong's Root = # 5826 (Hebrew = azar) azar = prime root: to surround, ie, protect or aid: help, succour

Gesenius adds that the primary idea lies in girding, surrounding, hence defending

MEET
(Hebrew = kenegdo) corresponding to, counterpart to, equal to matching

The traditional teaching for the woman as help (meet) is that of assistant or helper subservient to the one being helped. This definition would appear to line up with Strong's definition of the word. However, if you look at the context of every other use of the word ezer in the scripture, you will see that ezer refers to either God or military allies. In all other cases the one giving the help is superior to the one receiving the help. Adding kenegdo (meet) modifies the meaning to that of equal rather than superior status. Scripture is so awesome. God says just what He means.

Dr. Susan Hyatt gives the following definition from her book In the Spirit We're Equal "Re: Hebrew ezer kenegdo. In Genesis 2:18, the word "helpmeet" does not occur. The Hebrew expression ezer kenegdo appears, meaning "one who is the same as the other and who surrounds, protects, aids, helps, supports." There is no indication of inferiority or of a secondary position in an hierarchical separation of the male and female "spheres" of responsibility, authority, or social position."

And this is probably the nail in the sexist coffin:

"The word ezer is used twice in the Old Testament to refer to the female and 14 times to refer to God. For example, in the Psalms when David says, "The Lord is my Helper, 'he uses the word ezer.'"

Let us be clear that the Apostle Paul was sexist and possibly homosexual (some say he was asexual but his hate for women and praise or elevation for men seems to indicate something other than asexual).

Thanks for this good research.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by dadudemon
I refer to my own religious stories and characters as "Mythologies." That is the technically accurate term for it. The Greek Pantheon? Mythologies. Christian Godhead? Mythologies. A Pagan views Christian religious beliefs as mythologies.

But they are all mythologies.

Mythology:
"a body of myths, as that of a particular people or that relating to a particular person..."

To answer the thread topic with some Mormonism (because I honestly believe Mormons have just a tad bit extra on the Gospel to make much of this weird stuff make sense), Adam and Eve were naive, not dumb. Adam and Eve had intelligence and wisdom but lacked a great deal of knowledge since they were isolated from human culture. Also, God didn't send Satan. God banished him from heaven after his rebellion. He was banned to this plane of existence. Also, Adam and Eve existed at the same time as the rest of humanity and the story of their creation is 100% allegory and 100% not factual. You don't find this out in Mormonism until you go to the temple and do the crazy Mormon temple stuff. It is subtle but if you pay attention in the temple ceremonies, you'll see that Satan had been around doing his thing in the universe, on other worlds, for billions of years prior to earth. And humanity exited outside of Adam and Eve's little marriage in the Garden, as well.

Adam was not exempt from jack diddly or squat, as the OP implies. Adam made an informed decision to partake of the fruit.

Adam had 2 choices and both choices would result in him breaking God's commandments:

1. Obey the commandment to love Eve and "cleave unto her" and also have children.
2. Obey the commandment to not eat the forbidden fruit.

If he did 1, that means he would have to violate 2 (he would have to violate 2 in order to change his body to have children). If he did 2, that means he would violate 1 because he would lose Eve and wouldn't be able to stick to her.

And why was this obvious "doomed to fail" scenario setup? Because of the whole Free-Will thing God had going on. God wanted humanity to choose Him of its own free-will; not be forced to have to obey him. So He setup a scenario that he knew Satan would play into and that He knew Adam and Eve would fail. The kicker is, Adam and Eve both knew this scenario would be setup because, in Mormonism, we were all given callings to hold in the mortal plane and theirs was one of setting up humanity to experience mortality.

Eve was tempted because she wanted to do better for Adam and humanity. As we like to describe it in Mormonism, Eve knew that she had to eat the fruit in order to bare children. So she had a decision: remain in heavenly limbo indefinitely or get the Plan of Salvation started. Based on the very true temptations that Satan used to trick Eve (that she would gain the Knowledge of God), Eve made the choice to transgress God's commandment and partake of the fruit.

What we do not know is how long Satan tempted Eve. It could have been for centuries before she finally gave in. We also know Adam and Eve did not have the same bodies we did (allegorical, maybe) so their cognition may not be the same as ours. What we do know is both Adam and Eve chose to transgress God's commandments.

To put it more succinctly, here was Eve's conundrum:

1. Love Adam and multiply (have children).
2. Do not eat the forbidden fruit.

As we can see, Eve took the plunge. Some disparage Eve for this and make sexist statements that this is the bane of having women in our lives. In Mormonism, she is seen as, perhaps, the more righteous of the couple because she recognized the need to get the ball rolling.

So while Satan did what he was supposed to, as God predicted, so did Adam and Eve. Transgressing the Law was always the point of their stay in the Garden of Eden. They were never intended to stay there, indefinitely.

Some Mormons, including myself, speculate that God's spiritual reign on earth did not fully begin until Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden which was around 4000 B.C.E.

Some Mormons, but not myself, think the Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden since the Earth was formed over 4.5 billion years ago and that it took that long for Satan to tempt them to get the fruit. This interpretation means evolution still took place until modern humans evolved (because our mythology hints that humans existed outside of the Garden of Eden), this implies to these supporters that Eve made the choice when she thought the outside world was ready for them to face the consequences of their fruit eating actions.

As far as I believe, I don't know how much of the story is allegory and how much is real. Not even in Mormonism is it seen as important. But there was some Man, perhaps Hebrew, that was Adam and his wife Eve. Different names, most likely, but the story is about them. Adam, in Mormon mythology, is Michael the Archangel. He is a higher ranking angel than Lucifer before he fell. He was directly outside the Godhead (meaning, he was as close as possible to being Godlike without actually getting that title, officially) and, in Mormonism, he helped create the universe with Jehovah (Jesus Christ). So, this implies the Adam created the universe with Jehovah, knowing full well that he would have to go through the Garden of Eden trial and disobey God. I can speculate that he could not be part of the Godhead because he had to have imperfections enough to make the whole plan work (meaning, he would have to be able to break the Law).

Good work again.

Eve took the plunge and Adam had the good sense to follow her lead.

That is likely why Jews and Gnostic Christians like me see Eden as our place of enlightenment and elevation while Christians see a fall.

http://www.mrrena.com/misc/judaism2.php

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Now explain why Christianity denies women equality regardless of what your myths say?

Because Adam was the biggest sinner according to the myth, of course he would mistreat Eve more. It's only logical.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Adam could not sin as he did not know good and evil and had no evil intent.

If you or your God would condemn a person for something evil when they do not know evil then you both show that you know little about justice.

your ignorance and arrogance will be your demise... now i'm positive that you don't know the Bible the way i do...

you mean to say that God created a "baby" Adam who does not know what's right and wrong? nope... God created a mature Adam! after creating Adam, God took him and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it (Genesis 2:15)... and even brought the animals to him for him to name them (Genesis 2:19)...

Adam was perfectly knowledgeable about what's right and wrong... and there was this one single solitary commandment that he should obey:

"And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, You may freely eat of every tree of the garden;
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."
Genesis 2:16-17

God threw a commandment right there... a covenant with Adam, never to eat the forbidden fruit but he blew it... sin is trangression of the law (I John 3:4) and Adam did that:

"But they like Adam have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me."
Hosea 6:7

Originally posted by Greatest I am
So women should become slaves to men when they decide to marry one. How stupid can you get.

Equality is even written up in the U.N. Charter. You would not qualify to join the rest of the world.

Regards
DL

why do you have that habit of twisting my words? who told you that women are to be "slaves" to men when they get married? people like you does not recognize the goodness the Bible teaches!

"Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord."
Ephesians 5:22

to be slaves? to beat the wives to a pulp? read further!

"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself."
Ephesians 5:25, 28

now, i don't know what your schools and churches taught you but the Bible is not sexist nor degrade women in any way... of course, Paul taught that women should be silent, but then again, even if you're a man, if you are speaking nonsense, then you should be silent too!

"But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God."
I Corinthians 14:28

but even if you're a woman, and you speak no nonsense, you can even be a minister!

"But I commend to you Phoebe, our sister, who is minister of the assembly which is in Cenchrea;"
Romans 16:1

equality? women get that in the Church of the Bible... it's just people like GIA are ignorant enough not to recognize these verses in the Bible!

Re: Re: Re: Why was Adam exempt from the transgression when the transgression was disobedience?

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Exactly right.

You might like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ1PDxeUynA

Regards
DL

Very good video.

"Nevertheless, even though you chant and believe in Myoho-renge-kyo, if you think the Law is outside yourself, you are embracing not the Mystic Law but an inferior teaching."
Nichiren

Originally posted by Bentley
Because Adam was the biggest sinner according to the myth, of course he would mistreat Eve more. It's only logical.

So Christians knowingly follow a poor immoral misogynistic example and do not care if they make their own wives, daughters and mothers second class citizens.

Gotta love the morality of Christianity. Not.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by dyajeep
your ignorance and arrogance will be your demise... now i'm positive that you don't know the Bible the way i do...

you mean to say that God created a "baby" Adam who does not know what's right and wrong? nope... God created a mature Adam! after creating Adam, God took him and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it (Genesis 2:15)... and even brought the animals to him for him to name them (Genesis 2:19)...

Adam was perfectly knowledgeable about what's right and wrong... and there was this one single solitary commandment that he should obey:

"And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, You may freely eat of every tree of the garden;
But [b]of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat
, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."
Genesis 2:16-17

God threw a commandment right there... a covenant with Adam, never to eat the forbidden fruit but he blew it... sin is trangression of the law (I John 3:4) and Adam did that:

"But they like Adam have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me."
Hosea 6:7

why do you have that habit of twisting my words? who told you that women are to be "slaves" to men when they get married? people like you does not recognize the goodness the Bible teaches!

"Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord."
Ephesians 5:22

to be slaves? to beat the wives to a pulp? read further!

"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself."
Ephesians 5:25, 28

now, i don't know what your schools and churches taught you but the Bible is not sexist nor degrade women in any way... of course, Paul taught that women should be silent, but then again, even if you're a man, if you are speaking nonsense, then you should be silent too!

"But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God."
I Corinthians 14:28

but even if you're a woman, and you speak no nonsense, you can even be a minister!

"But I commend to you Phoebe, our sister, who is minister of the assembly which is in Cenchrea;"
Romans 16:1

equality? women get that in the Church of the Bible... it's just people like GIA are ignorant enough not to recognize these verses in the Bible! [/B]

You are correct in that I do not know the bible as you do.

But you do not know justice nor your bible.

You have a mature Adam who is to stupid to know he is naked.

You are too stupid yourself if you think a mature male does not know when he is naked.

Begone. I have no time for such as you.

Regards
DL

Re: Re: Re: Re: Why was Adam exempt from the transgression when the transgression was disobedience?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Very good video.

"Nevertheless, even though you chant and believe in Myoho-renge-kyo, if you think the Law is outside yourself, you are embracing not the Mystic Law but an inferior teaching."
Nichiren

+ 1

I only trust men who have written their moral code and laws in their hearts.

In an emergency, if a man has to run to a book before knowing the moral way to act then he is not worthy of being called a man.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
You are correct in that I do not know the bible as you do.

But you do not know justice nor your bible.

You have a mature Adam who is to stupid to know he is naked.

You are too stupid yourself if you think a mature male does not know when he is naked.

Begone. I have no time for such as you.

Regards
DL

that's your argument? 😆

if you want to refute that Adam is not created to be a baby like you imply, then you should've made a better one.

and if you admit that you don't know the Bible that much, then "asking" about it is better than "criticizing" the book you don't really understand... sounds like someone i used to talk to...

if you don't time for me, then so be it.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
So Christians knowingly follow a poor immoral misogynistic example and do not care if they make their own wives, daughters and mothers second class citizens.

Gotta love the morality of Christianity. Not.

Regards
DL

My point was that your affirmation only enforces that the Bible is right in a twisted way, it doesn't detract from the teachings of the Church.

Christian don't have the exclusivity of mysoginy.

Originally posted by Bentley
My point was that your affirmation only enforces that the Bible is right in a twisted way, it doesn't detract from the teachings of the Church.

Christian don't have the exclusivity of mysoginy.

Well, Gnosticism is a form of Christianity, although it maybe older. So, what do you expect?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, what do you expect?

To be honest I expected exactly what I got 😕

Originally posted by Bentley
To be honest I expected exactly what I got 😕

Well, at least you are not disappointed. 😉

One aspect of Gnostic Christianity that I like is that, as Universalists, we cannot be misogynistic as we see a spark of God within us all regardless of the gender our souls show.

The view most have of God is of an androgynous creature so to see our souls that way follows the logic of that belief.

That is why we do not and cannot discriminate against women and gays the way many religions do.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
The view most have of God is of an androgynous creature so to see our souls that way follows the logic of that belief.

That is why we do not and cannot discriminate against women and gays the way many religions do.

Regards
DL

that's one of the reasons, i somehow agree on the underlined... although i'm more of using "asexual" to describe God... and God is not a "creature" since He is the Creator...

"But those who are accounted worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage,"
Luke 20:35

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
Galatians 3:28

God the Father is a "He", making Him a male but He gave birth to His Son (Hebrews 1:5), having female aspects... but then again, "giving birth" is not limited to females only because of the "seahorse logic"... and Jesus saying that the Father is a spirit (John 4:24), and a spirit doesn't have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39) makes God an androgynous or asexual entity...

Does anyone actually believe limitations such as gender would apply to a pandimensional entity such as the one we call god?

Originally posted by Bentley
Does anyone actually believe limitations such as gender would apply to a pandimensional entity such as the one we call god?

A literalist would.