Originally posted by Emperordmb
Wasn't Qreph heavily amped?
"Still cartwheeling, Luke flicked his palm up. The Force rushed into him with wild, burning fierceness, then he unleashed a blast of energy so powerful it blew the flesh off her vanalloy skeleton—that was a surprise—and she tumbled away in pieces, her crimson blade tracing spirals through the darkness.
Luke’s shoulder glanced off a tree. He hit the ground, off balance and disoriented, a little unnerved by the raw power he had just unleashed. The Force had swept into him with pure unshaped potential, and he had killed with it—more out of surprise than necessity.
Too easy … too tempting.
"
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dumbass.
No, the dumbass would be the one who thought that bringing up a vague quote was using my own logic against me when I was actually using mostly feats as the source of my arguments. You confirmed that you don't even know what logic is.
The dumbass would also be the one who lets people over the web force him to do their bidding, and then telling the whole story to someone they claim to want to start "war" with. Speaking of which, when was Intrepid supposed to destroy me? 😂
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Caedus is just that good. In addition, Luke is not the combatant that he's made out to be.
If Caedus is that good then I'd say team two takes this. However, since you and I don't agree on certain things, then I may be convinced other wise.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
What feats are you referring to, specifically?
Black hole manipulation, destroying and rebuilding Vader's castle with TK, resisting a force push from Unuthul who was channeling the force energy of [millions?], toppling an AT walker, throwing a large statue, ragdolling a group of Palpatine's dark side adepts, IIRC (though, I didn't find them that impressive, so...), destroying a group of droids with the wave of his hands, moving ships (though Caedus has too), tanking/absorbing fire power capable of destroying entire buildings etc.
Has Caedus shown anything to suggest that he is on par with Luke power-wise? I mean, I know Luke is inconsistent, but his best showings are at least consistent enough to put him at the top.
I know Caedus had that feat against the Vong, which was considered to be the most powerful manifestation of the force in history according to The Sith vs Jedi, but it was a one time thing.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Generally I tend to advocate that it's far more difficult to break a telekinetic grip than to prevent/block it. Just look at the Maul/Sidious scenario.
I disagree unless they are very close in power (which is basically what I'm asking), but even then, we hardly see two equals gripping each other around even when a force attack is successfully landed. Yoda to Sidious, for example, I doubt that Yoda could've kept Sidious down, because it requires more effort and power to keep your opponent down when they are fighting to repulse your effort than just merely knocking them off balance. Usually when we see grip being utilized, it's a sign of dominance, which is why we very rarely see less power individuals being able to grip their opponent unless under certain circumstances. We do, however, see less power individuals successfully tagging their superiors with the force quite often.
Originally posted by Nephthys
It does matter, because it decreases the speed of Grievous' individual strikes as I explained above. To strike 20 times per sec with a single saber you need to move significantly faster than 4 sabers striking just as many times. It's the difference between dodging 4 tennis balls going 25 mph and 1 tennis ball going 100 mph. Added together they make up the same speed, but the one is actually many times faster than the four. This isn't anything about gear, its about the perception of a feat and speed. Grievous doesn't have 20 strikes per second speed, he has 5 strikes per second speed and 4 arms. This does affect his performance in threads, because its much easier to defend against 4 attacks than 1 attack thats 4 times as fast as any of those attacks.I'm not saying it's not an advantage. It is. All I'm saying is that peoples perceptions of Grievous' speed based on the 20 strikes per second feat are off. People are taking it as indicative of his speed without considering that that number was split between 4 arms. Despite what I said at the start though, GG isn't being diminished, its just that people were making him look more impressive than he actually is.
And Obi-Wan was able to defend against all of Grievous' sabers with just one of his, while only being as fast or slower than any one of GG's arms. Its hardly an insurmountable advantage.
20 strike per second is 20 strikes per second whether it's coming from 1 saber or 4. The only difference is, as far as defense goes, it's harder to defend against 20 attacks that are literally coming at you from different angles than just one. Having 4 different arms gives Grievous the advantage of attacking 20 strikes a second in more angles, however, the amount of strikes per second remains the same.
Your tennis ball analogy makes no sense. If all four balls are coming at you 25mph it doesn't make the traveling speed any different nor would it add up to 100mph considering the traveling speed between each ball would still be the same. That's why you don't see cops pulling over 4 cars and telling them that he added 25 times 4 and that means that they were going over the speed limit. Now I couldn't calculate the striking speed between each of Grievous's arms, but I do know that the speed and rapidity between each strike equals out to 20 strikes per second. That's all we need to know, and knowing that the strikes are coming from different angles, common sense dictates that I would be harder to defend against.
Black hole manipulation,
Kyp has manipulated Dorvin Basals as well, you know.
destroying and rebuilding Vader's castle with TK,
I don't recall him rebuilding it.
toppling an AT walker,
Caedus has casually moved a 40x20 meter ship, this isn't outside the range of his abilities.
throwing a large statue
He just knocked it over.
ragdolling a group of Palpatine's dark side adepts,
Never happened. He pushed Sedriss, once.
moving ships
Caedus has stopped B-Wings mid-flight.
tanking/absorbing fire power capable of destroying entire buildings
Caedus has deflected torrents of turbolaser fire with his hands. That's easily enough to destroy cathedrals, much less ordinary buildings.
Originally posted by Sinious
😆 😆 😆Tell me, how is Caedus superior to planet annihilating, Dark Council one-shotting, jedi strike team(extremely powerful) dominating and easily mindraping strong individuals like Revan and Malak?
I have seen this debate had before and Caedus wins every single time.
Caedus could stop the mind-rape of Luke himself.
His moment of oneness was stronger than anyone else's
He could sever Ben from the Force and restore it at will.
He could block any bonds with his family members.
Emit illusions so complex and realistic that he can even allow the victim's own imagination to drive it.
He ROFLSTOMPED Kyle Katarn and co. like literal ragdolls and nearly killed him when he(Caedus) wasn't even interested.
His Battle Meditation was so strong that he was practically single-handedly responsible for keeping his fleet together whilst fighting on his own flagship.
His battle-meld was so powerful that he became the center of over a dozen Jedi simultaneously and kept the group together.
He tanked a lightsaber blade through the stomach and the loss of his fore-arm and was still nearly killing Jaina Solo, the Sword of the Jedi herself whilst being heavily distracted with the thought of his wife and daughter's death.
I can go on and on and on and on..
Take away Vitiate's rituals and prep... then compare them, it's not even close.
Originally posted by AncientPower
I have seen this debate had before and Caedus wins every single time.Caedus could stop the mind-rape of Luke himself.
Luke himself? Vitiate is known to be a master of mind-raping. Even the attempt of mind-dominating Vitiate would be a laughable cause even for the likes of Luke. You pride Caedus by him not being dominated by a powerful character where Vitiate is prided by dominating other powerful characters.
His moment of oneness was stronger than anyone else's
He could sever Ben from the Force and restore it at will.
He could block any bonds with his family members.
Emit illusions so complex and realistic that he can even allow the victim's own imagination to drive it.
LMAO Then Caedus would probably beat the Ones too since that seems to be what determines this.
Vitiate could make people immortal as he wished and by exposing only a fraction of his true darkness, he could turn powerful sith lords mad. His mere presence was enough to make most tremble.
The Emperor has mastered the force so well that he could transfer his entity into other bodies without losing power. He had an entire cult devoted to him and he could telepathically talk to every single member of it casually without even focusing. In fact, he could simultaneously talk to several people through the force no matter how far they are.
He ROFLSTOMPED Kyle Katarn and co. like literal ragdolls and nearly killed him when he(Caedus) wasn't even interested.His Battle Meditation was so strong that he was practically single-handedly responsible for keeping his fleet together whilst fighting on his own flagship.
His battle-meld was so powerful that he became the center of over a dozen Jedi simultaneously and kept the group together.
He tanked a lightsaber blade through the stomach and the loss of his fore-arm and was still nearly killing Jaina Solo, the Sword of the Jedi herself whilst being heavily distracted with the thought of his wife and daughter's death.
Vitiate's was so capable with his sorcery that he tricked and then dominated 8000 sith lords to participate in a ritual where he became immortal and annihilated an entire planet. The planet became a wound in the force and powerful beings like Nyriss and Surik had trouble remaining on its surface. He right after that became the most powerful sith lord ever lived which means he was above the likes of Tulak Hord, Exar Kun, Marka Ragnos etc. He spent 1300 years after that constantly draining on other force users and discovering new techniques and powers within the dark side of the force.
He became so powerful that he was able to annihilate an entire dark council. He one-shot them as it wasn't even a fight at all. A dark council consists of the best sith lords among thousands of powerful sith. Even their weaker members hold great power in their hands and more high tier members consist of people like Darth Nox, Jadus, Marr, Baras, Nyriss etc.
Revan was the champion of the order even in his youth and he has gained a lot of knowledge and multiplied his power as a sith lord. He became even more powerful in KOTOR and much more powerful in the novel when he was "reborn". Even than, after he managed to reflect one of Vitaite's single-handedly/carelessly sent force attacks(The Emperor didnt even feel in danger at this point), Emperor felt he had to take this more seriously and he summoned a lightning enough to break Reborn Revan's defenses instantly and fry him to a point where he would die if he wasn't attended by a medic.
I can go on and on and on and on..
You can go on and on about many characters. The problem is the information that you are sharing is irrelevant since most of the things you're listing here isnt even near what Vitiate has achieved.
Take away Vitiate's rituals and prep... then compare them, it's not even close.
Even than, Vitiate takes this but:
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
There might be a problem in comparing Caedus' power to Vitiate's prep if you take the prep away.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Kyp has manipulated Dorvin Basals as well, you know.
And Kyp's a power house, and was once thought of as having greater force potential than Luke. Regardless of whether or not that feat is consistent with his other feats, I'm not sure what Kyp's feat has to do with Caedus.
As far as TK is concerned it's beyond anything Jacen has done, along with resisting the force push from the combined power of [millions?], and tearing down Vader's castle, which I'm more than sure was done very casually. I'll get back to you about the rebuilding it part, unless you have the passage?
Originally posted by NewGuy01
He just knocked it over.
I recall him lifting it and moving it quite a distance.
Regardless, feats like this, along with his toppling of the walker, are his minor feats, which I'm sure Caedus is capable of which is why I mention his manipulation of a ship. I was just listing random consistent good showings from Luke. Even his minor ones that I listed were done way before his prime and don't contradict his higher end ones in his prime.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Never happened. He pushed Sedriss, once.
I'm pretty sure he force pushed about 2 or 3 when he first arrived on Byss.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Caedus has stopped B-Wings mid-flight.
That's the feat I was referring to.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Caedus has deflected torrents of turbolaser fire with his hands. That's easily enough to destroy cathedrals, much less ordinary buildings.
Ordinary buildings is an understatement. Regardless, you just proved that Caedus is more than capable of handling Vitiate if he's capable of absorbing such fire power, so I'm not sure what puts Vitiate ahead of him combat-wise.
The biggest threat against team 2 would be Sidious's force storm, but since Caedus and Plaguies are fast enough to keep up with Sidious I'm not sure he would be able to distance himself in order to produce one. Then again, I don't see them leaping around in just a force contest, so team 1 might take it solely on account of Sidious storm.
No, Luke force pushed Jacen into vines.
"Jacen turned his head, but Luke's little finger scratched across something soft and bulbous. Jacen roared and stumbled away, shaking his head. Luke feinted a dash toward his nephew's blind side, then-as Jacen pivoted to protect his injured eye-Luke hit him with a Force wave.
Jacen went flying, and it required only a soft nudge to steer him into a tendril-draped rack in the far corner. He hit with so much cracking and crashing that Luke worried the rack had broken, but the thin tendrils quickly entwined Jacen in a net of pulsing green."
Jacen did blindside Luke by tossing some vines at him, but only because Luke was expecting lightning.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Didn't Luke have help the other time or wasn't it context specific? Do you have the passage?
There was that time when he pinned Jacen to his chair rather effortlessly and there was that other time when Luke started wreaking Jacens ship with TK. Jacen tries to block him and Luke rebukes him so hard Jacen shatters his collarbone.
I can find the passages but I'd rather not, I can never recall which books in LotF these feats come from.
Originally posted by Nephthys
There was that time when he pinned Jacen to his chair rather effortlessly and there was that other time when Luke started wreaking Jacens ship with TK. Jacen tries to block him and Luke rebukes him so hard Jacen shatters his collarbone.I can find the passages but I'd rather not, I can never recall which books in LotF these feats come from.
Yeah the one when Luke wrecks the ship, I thought it was context specific or Luke had help unaware to Jacen.
No, you just don't want to help me out because you hate me. 😛
I dunno. Luke never needed help to humiliate Jacen. There was also the time he made Jacen look like a lunatic with an illusionary fleet only Jacen could see. And when he tricked Jacen into thinking he was dead and specifically hid his force presence from Jacen alone. And I think he screwed with him a lot in the Jaina fight as well.