If Captain America is a 10

Originally posted by riv6672
There's really no right and wrong here but, that is one cockeyed list. Biggest ones'd be Cyclops and Superman as better leaders than Cap. Thats...highly debatable.

I'm just not that much impressed by Cap and Superman.

They're ubeatable flagship-characters, and while Cap certainly did an amazing job during the war, it doesn't really feel like it was all him....Obviously a super-hero draped in the flag of a country is going to rally the troops of that country.

Cap is a great symbol, but from what I've read of Avengers comics 70s through late 80s , I don't see what makes him such a divine leader.

True.

Cyclops is the spokesman of an entire race of people, and wasn't born to it, neither was he elected to it. Not that he seized it by force, but rather, he fell into that role, and people just shrugged their shoulders and said, you know what, we're OK with this. And followed him without question.

1. Reed Richards - 5

2. Superman - 10

3. Nightwing - 12

4. Cyclops - 10

5. Leonardo - 10

6. Cosmic Boy - 8

7. Alan Scott GL - 10

8. Guardian - ?

9. Magneto - 9

10. Sinestro - 8

11. Batman - 15

Originally posted by riv6672
There's really no right and wrong here but, that is one cockeyed list. Biggest ones'd be Cyclops and Superman as better leaders than Cap. Thats...highly debatable.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hmm.

I guess my/rivv's thinking (ignoring the DC/Marvel comment, because, frankly, each universe is as good/bad as each other, and is trolling), was this:

Not sure what you mean but they hunt and kill mutants in the DCU and were going to have all superhumans registered? Sry mate Marvel is more cynical.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Cap is a living legend. He is looked up to and revered as this amazing guy, from World War 2. And the reason why he had such a badass rep, was because back then, he WAS the top dog, the numero uno powerwise. Plus, invincible shield and all that. He gets defrosted in the 60s/70s whenever, with a leadership rep already made.

In other words, he's a legend the same way Superman is a legend. They are both top dogs in their respective timeline. If you were a baddie, you make your bones by taking down Superman/Cap.

THAT is why they are inspiring. Because they are unbeatable.

Of course, it is not the only reason - or else, what would the alien races care about some relic from a faraway war? But it is the main reason he is held in such awe by Marvel Earth.

Nightwing? He's just an acrobat with two sticks. And he's ordering all these powered individuals around, without being the strongest, fastest, smartest, or, arguably, the most tactically aware (as Cap is always shown to be). Neither does he have a power ring, or an unbreakable shield. He is leading through his personality and people skills, not through fear, having come up from the ranks, first as a kid sidekick, then as his own hero.

That would be why his leadership could be argued to be > Cap.

I see what your saying but the problem is Marvel is a more cynical universe so it's harder to inspire. You're also penalising Cap because he happens to better at Nightwing at everything. He has better fighting skills, stronger will and has better people skills.

Back to Korvac arc I don't even think the people or aliens have even heard of him because it was 100s of years in the future. Not to mention that even if the aliens have even heard of him why should they help him? To illustrate my point:

Aliens: So you're some hero who existed 100s of years in the past in some far away alien culture and you want us to go up against a guy that can manipulate time by waving his hand? Uhhh and why should we listen to you?

At least DC heroes actually know who he is. Also this argument about him being the best is redundent because you're going up against a guy who can manipulate time by waving his hand. Not to menton that the servant never heard of him either and Cap still inspired him to betray Korvac. You know what the servant at the end of the arc called himself...Captain America. Something tells me Cap didn't convince him due to his fighting skills.

No I'm not being subjective I'm using the criteria you're using and Cap is still a better leader. When NW can do a leadership feat like that then we can talk.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Two more things that Cap has in his favour, which Nightwing did not have to help him achieve his status:

1. A massive propaganda machine during WW2 which helps build his rep up; and

Korvac arc cancels that out. This also doesn't give Cap a freepass. First of all Cap earned that reputation. Secondly despite the propaganada machine the govt has on at least one ocassion tried to 'sack' him from his 'job'. Did you not read Civil War were a journalist lambasted him despite the fact he's saved the planet on numerous ocassions? That was a long time ago and in the MU you don't get a freepass because you were some WW2 hero. People are ungrateful and cynical.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

2. A massive jobber aura. When Cap is putting the hurting on Hulk, THE Hulk, it inspires people like Spiderman to get up and fight.

...and we can end this right here. If you're going to argue that Cap has a jobber aura then we can stop having a serious debate. You don't tell somebody who has been able to do that for his whole career that he has a jobber aura, thats what he can do. It's like saying the Silver Sufer has a jobber aura because he can travel FTL.

You could make that argument about Batman because he wasn't always able to do that he only started getting a push in the 90s.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Nightwing does not have this, and so, he inspires and leads people again, through his people and leadership skills.

Again Korvac arc, nobody knew who he was and his fighting skills didn't make a difference. Not to mention the fact he had to convince aliens to help him.

Oh, and another candidate, one who has no respect:

Aquaman.

Again, not born into it, was actually an outcast because of his blondeness...and still rules. Not only the Atlanteans, but all marine life.

DCnU has a weaker grasp of Atlanteans, but a stronger case to be made in terms of sea life (as in, he no longer commands them - he asks them, and they can decide if they want to follow his orders).

None of the guys on this list are able to lead 'lower' lifeforms sneer. No fish is following Cap into battle.

Namor would. 😉

Originally posted by Deadline
Not sure what you mean but they hunt and kill mutants in the DCU and were going to have all superhumans registered? Sry mate Marvel is more cynical.

I see what your saying but the problem is Marvel is a more cynical universe so it's harder to inspire. You're also penalising Cap because he happens to better at Nightwing at everything. He has better fighting skills, stronger will and has better people skills.

Back to Korvac arc I don't even think the people or aliens have even heard of him because it was 100s of years in the future. Not to mention that even if the aliens have even heard of him why should they help him? To illustrate my point:

[b]Aliens: So you're some hero who existed 100s of years in the past in some far away alien culture and you want us to go up against a guy that can manipulate time by waving his hand? Uhhh and why should we listen to you?

At least DC heroes actually know who he is. Also this argument about him being the best is redundent because you're going up against a guy who can manipulate time by waving his hand. Not to menton that the servant never heard of him either and Cap still inspired him to betray Korvac. You know what the servant at the end of the arc called himself...Captain America. Something tells me Cap didn't convince him due to his fighting skills.

No I'm not being subjective I'm using the criteria you're using and Cap is still a better leader. When NW can do a leadership feat like that then we can talk.

Korvac arc cancels that out.

This also doesn't give Cap a freepass. First of all Cap earned that reputation.

Secondly despite the propaganada machine the govt has on at least one ocassion tried to 'sack' him from his 'job'. Did you not read Civil War were a journalist lambasted him despite the fact he's saved the planet on numerous ocassions? That was a long time ago and in the MU you don't get a freepass because you were some WW2 hero. People are ungrateful and cynical.

...and we can end this right here. If you're going to argue that Cap has a jobber aura then we can stop having a serious debate. You don't tell somebody who has been able to do that for his whole career that he has a jobber aura, thats what he can do. It's like saying the Silver Sufer has a jobber aura because he can travel FTL.
You could make that argument about Batman because he wasn't always able to do that he only started getting a push in the 90s.

Originally posted by riv6672
Namor would. 😉

To Namor, every lifeform is lesser to him.

I meant Namor was the fish that'd follow Cap!

Edit:
As you can tell i've bowed out of the Deadline conversation. I have a headache and he's not going to change his mind. Still, i think you've made a great argument for NW; better than i ever could have.

1. Reed Richards - 3: not at all trustworthy or very good at the whole morale thing

2. Superman - 7: great for morale, but too boring and apt to just get you punching things

4. Cyclops - 9: pretty much perfect, 'cept for when he's a boyscout

5. Leonardo - 6: excellent leader, but a turtle??

9. Magneto - 7: great charisma, intelligence and planning, but whole evil bastard thing and occasional moments of moral compromise make him difficult to follow

10. Sinestro - 6: see Magneto, but less intelligent and charismatic

Aquaman would be a 10-12, he is the ruler of the biggest realm on earth.

^ Janus, rate Surfer also

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Lol, that's precisely what happened to the JSA (with the House Un-American Activities Committee). With regards to mutants, obviously no such thing exists (as there are no 'mutants' as such), but they do have the Keene Act. Which enables the use of superpowered individuals as the government's personal army.

Ok good point. However mutants do exist and you can imagine it's going to be harder for Cap to inspire mutants to follow him. I don't think a mutant that has been hunted and persecuted really cares about a 'human' who fought for humans in ww2, despite this Cap has lead both mutants and non-mutants into battle. You're also forgetting people are much more cynical for example J. Jonah Jamenson has made a career out of making super heros look bad. Don't think DCU has a Jonah Jamenson (not sure if thats how you spell his name).

Not sure if that act is the same as the superhuman registration act because as you know people weren't just hating mutants but other metas as well. Even the Human Torch got hate, that's how bad thing got and the FF are quite popular. The superhuman registration act happened because people didn't trust heroes, that act seems to be more like the govt wants the superhumans help.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Harder to inspire....this coming from a universe where a man wrapped in the US flag and carrying a shield with a star rallies people around him.

You're really blowing this out of proportion. Thanks for mentioning mutants, a lot of mutants are not going to give Cap a free pass because he fought in ww2. One good example is in the Wolverine series were Cap gives a young mutant advice and the mutant told him to F off, but I'm pretty sure that the mutant is going to take Cap more seriously because he nearly got killed because he didn't take his advice.

What about the arc were Cap entered the superhuman wrestling federation and they basically ended up rushing him? They didn't care about WW2 either, they also basically said they weren't even impressed by him (despite the fact he was fighting against a group of trained wrestlers with superhuman strength).

It doesn't matter wether the JSA got fired from their 'job' it still doesn't change the fact that you're arguing that Cap some how has this untouchable status. If that were the case that would have never happened. If you want to argue that the universe isn't less cynical that's another point.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Cap is a constant. We see this in all the alternate futures when Cap time travelled into the future and met Franklin Richards, or in the Ultron storyline with Avengers AI - there is always an Avengers, and there is always a Cap.

Fair enough, your argument DOES seem to hinge on this one Korvac arc though. Granted, it's ONE feat to my ZERO, so I can concede on this.

Nope they didn't know who he was. Korvac had to explain to his servant who Cap was. That's even more imnpressive by the fact he had to convinvce aliens to work with him. At least Cyclops and Aquaman have something in common with their people. Yea I pretty much win this argument. There are probably other examples of him doing this but that's the one I can remember (or know).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

By having an indestructible shield, and being better than 90% of the cannon fodder Germans he went up against.

Better than Gotham or Bludhaven thugs. Some thing tells me that its not all down to NWs personality that people listen him. I'm pretty sure his skills and superhero career at least play some role in the respect he gets and Cap is better than him even without the shield and SSS.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

I have indeed, and I have also readthe comics where someone looks at Cap in awe and says things like, I used to hear stories about him from my granddad...I can't believe I'm in the same room as him etc etc. Hell, he;s even called a Living Legend.

and there are lots of people who don't care about his reputation.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Oh, Batman absolutely has this. Massively so. I'm just saying, that a lot of the awe he inspires in people, that builds his reputation up, is based on him being able to hurt people who, if we just looked at their bios, he has no business hurting. The underdog who wins despite the odds. I'm not saying disregard it, I'm just saying his ability to hurt the Hulk has nothing to do with him being a good leader.

Ok.

^Cap needed Wolverine to reach out to Molly Hayes

Apparently his breath smelled like shit.

Some leader.

^Trolling.

Yeah, you arent changing your mind.
Lets just agree to not agree, ok.

Edit:
Krisblaze is apt yo do that to help offset his good posts.

Originally posted by Deadline
^Trolling.

Like Dark Saint said though, Cyclops leads in spite of his failing popularity.

Steve leads because of his popularity.

Originally posted by riv6672
Yeah, you arent changing your mind.
Lets just agree to not agree, ok.

Edit:
Krisblaze is apt yo do that to help offset his good posts.

Sure but that doesn't change the fact that based on what I said I'm right.

Originally posted by krisblaze
^ Janus, rate Surfer also

He's a loner, that's where he's best. Exploring, occasionally fighting, often just surfing the universe.

He has charisma, but he's too much of a natural pacifist to lead people without bringing them down. When he's ruthless, he's too scary to lead, like having Savage Hulk lead a team. Too much power and too much anger.