Just one last point (as I have conceded on the Korvac showing):
Cap does not lead mutants. We saw that abundantly clear in AvX, and even more so in Uncanny Avengers, where he acknowledges this and let's Havok take the reins - precisely because he is seen as 'pro-human' and 'anti-mutant'.
Besides, they have their own figurehead - Cyclops.
Whereas NW leads across the spectrum. Outsiders, Teen Titans, JLA (twice), villains, hell, the only mainstream team he hasn't led is the JSA.
And whilst I agree, he IS better than Gotham/Bludhaven thugs, he doesn't get built up into this awesome mythic figure like Cap or even Batman is. He has skills, sure, I'm not making him out to be some nobody...
I guess the simplest analogy, is that Cap is the star quarterback, who got a shot of super steroids (I am simplifying a lot, obviously). He is THE best in terms of strength, skills, tactics, and yes, he is a likeable person. Not taking anything away from that.
NW is the guy who started out in the reserves, the B teams, and slowly worked his way up. He's by no means the best, but when he speaks, people listen. And that's why I put him at the same level as Cap, Rivv put him above, and I wouldn't dismiss that out of hand.
Incidentally, the Keene Act enables the creation of the Suicide Squad, and Waller implanting bombs in prisoners etc.
Originally posted by riv6672
Haha, as long as you get the last word, of course 😆
To be quite honest, not really. It's just that you seem to think that having an opinion in itself is something sacred. It isn't.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Just one last point (as I have conceded on the Korvac showing):
Oh I just remembered Cap convinced Arnim Zola's daughter to betray him. No reason why she should care about Cap's rep if anything she was taught to hate him.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Cap does not lead mutants. We saw that abundantly clear in AvX, and even more so in Uncanny Avengers, where he acknowledges this and let's Havok take the reins - precisely because he is seen as 'pro-human' and 'anti-mutant'.Besides, they have their own figurehead - Cyclops.
That's really unfair. You're taking that one story and ignoring the fact that Cap has lead Cyclops into battle on more than one ocassion. As far as I remember Havok wanted Cap to lead but Cap didn't because he was too humble. Cap was right in the Civil War and even won it but decided to give himself up, he didn't need to. No to mention the fact all that rubbish that reporter accused Cap of was nonsense. Instead of Cap sticking up for himself he felt guilty. That's what happened in Uncanny Avengers, Cyclops stated that Cap didn't do enough to help mutants, that's nonsense. Cap let Havok lead out of guilt.
It's not Cap's role to lead mutants. Really it shouldn't matter but it makes sense for Cyclops to lead mutants due to his history. Cyclops is bit like Aquaman and Black Panther in the sense that to some extent they are all destined to rule. Cap doesn't have that 'destiny'.
Originally posted by riv6672
Whereas NW leads across the spectrum. Outsiders, Teen Titans, JLA (twice), villains, hell, the only mainstream team he hasn't led is the JSA.And whilst I agree, he IS better than Gotham/Bludhaven thugs, he doesn't get built up into this awesome mythic figure like Cap or even Batman is. He has skills, sure, I'm not making him out to be some nobody...
I guess the simplest analogy, is that Cap is the star quarterback, who got a shot of super steroids (I am simplifying a lot, obviously). He is THE best in terms of strength, skills, tactics, and yes, he is a likeable person. Not taking anything away from that.
NW is the guy who started out in the reserves, the B teams, and slowly worked his way up. He's by no means the best, but when he speaks, people listen. And that's why I put him at the same level as Cap, Rivv put him above, and I wouldn't dismiss that out of hand.
Incidentally, the Keene Act enables the creation of the Suicide Squad, and Waller implanting bombs in prisoners etc.
Yea I get what you're saying.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Just one last point (as I have conceded on the Korvac showing):Cap does not lead mutants. We saw that abundantly clear in AvX, and even more so in Uncanny Avengers, where he acknowledges this and let's Havok take the reins - precisely because he is seen as 'pro-human' and 'anti-mutant'.
Besides, they have their own figurehead - Cyclops.
Whereas NW leads across the spectrum. Outsiders, Teen Titans, JLA (twice), villains, hell, the only mainstream team he hasn't led is the JSA.
And whilst I agree, he IS better than Gotham/Bludhaven thugs, he doesn't get built up into this awesome mythic figure like Cap or even Batman is. He has skills, sure, I'm not making him out to be some nobody...
I guess the simplest analogy, is that Cap is the star quarterback, who got a shot of super steroids (I am simplifying a lot, obviously). He is THE best in terms of strength, skills, tactics, and yes, he is a likeable person. Not taking anything away from that.
NW is the guy who started out in the reserves, the B teams, and slowly worked his way up. He's by no means the best, but when he speaks, people listen. And that's why I put him at the same level as Cap, Rivv put him above, and I wouldn't dismiss that out of hand.
Incidentally, the Keene Act enables the creation of the Suicide Squad, and Waller implanting bombs in prisoners etc.
Nice analogy.
Didnt know about the Keens act and the squad, or if i did i'd forgotten.
Those are good arguments.
Not good enough for me to ever rate him a 15. I just dont see anyone we could list as over a 10, except Nightwing, really. And thats more of an asterisk.
Guys like Cyclops have been absent from good chunks of their team's history. He falls more into the elder statesman mold, like Alan Scott.
Guys like Superman have battle field generals.
Reed is a genius but not a very good leader, really.
So yeah, no one should be getting over a 10.
To clarify, the 15 mark was hyperbole.
That being said, I don't see how Cyclops rates below Nightwing considering his history. Cross-universe chronology isn't an exact science, but by all rights Nightwing was just a pup when Cyke was already shouldering the best interests of TWO races in a constant, global, covert (for a time) war.
The X-Men has been a pretty liquid team, I'm not sure what relevance there is in saying he hasn't always "been there". Xavier took a back seat to him in the Messiah arc, that speaks volumes.
I feel Cyclops is being dealt a terrible injustice here. Has he not suffered enough in his cinematic portrayals? 😛
Oh god, the movies...😘
You're right about chronology, but really, a pup? Cyclops isnt THAT much older than NW.
And, NW was 10 when he became Robin.
He was also being trained by one of the greatest heroes in comics in deduction, HtH, tactics, weapons, etc., while going at it with some of the sickest most psychotic villains around.
Whatever Xavier was teaching Cyclops was very good, but likely not on Batman's level. And the X villains, while dangerous as hell, werent likely to shoot Cyclops dead.
This is apples and oranges though. I just found that pup remark worth touching on.
Originally posted by riv6672
Oh god, the movies...😘You're right about chronology, but really, a pup? Cyclops isnt THAT much older than NW.
And, NW was 10 when he became Robin.
He was also being trained by one of the greatest heroes in comics in deduction, HtH, tactics, weapons, etc., while going at it with some of the sickest most psychotic villains around.
Whatever Xavier was teaching Cyclops was very good, but likely not on Batman's level. And the X villains, while dangerous as hell, werent likely to shoot Cyclops dead.
This is apples and oranges though. I just found that pup remark worth touching on.
Fair enough, I'll concede that "pup" isn't accurate.
I'm not doubting the fighting skills that NW developed as Robin, but those aren't leadership skills. Cyclops was trained as a leader from the moment Xavier took him under his wing (I have no idea how old he was without looking it up, but most likely early teens as that's usually when their powers manifest and Prof comes looking for them). And what do you mean the X villains "weren't trying to shoot Cyclops dead"? Of course they were. Ostensibly, the villains are always trying to do away with the heroes...but they're comics.
And I can't overstate the kind of weight that Scott is consistently burdened with. It's not a one-off thing, it's a constant. And that's only talking about the general state of mutant affairs, let alone his own family's drama.
Cyclops for sure got the up front leadership training, but, the training NW got WAS leadership training, same as in the military. You apply the lessons learned as a subordinate when you get soldiers of your own.
When he met his meta peers they almost immediately defaulted to him.
As to the villains, i disagree. Before comics became a body count based industry, the Bat villains were unique in their willingness to kill when compared to non Bat villains. Just MO, though.
Whats not opinion though, is your last point about Cyclops. Thats why i call him an elder statesman.
I'll mention another good one: Wonder Woman. She gets overlooked, but she's a tactician/strategist, she's inspiring, she's done the whole 'pull a bunch of heroes together because she's *WonderWoman*' thing (In WW600, gathered a whole army of heroines on the spot), and serves as a military commander fairly often. When the Greek and Indian pantheons fought together against Chronus's Titans, they picked Wonder Woman to lead them. At least a 9.