superman vs goku

Originally posted by StealthRanger
By shit like "averages" and "consistent showings" we focus on the higher end of the spectrum without taking in obvious as **** outliers

Originally posted by StealthRanger
If we were to go with actual consistent showings and try to get a mean, then we'd only get low end superhuman garbage for character supposed to be massively hypersonic planet busters

Originally posted by StealthRanger
This is the kind of shit which makes me sneer in contempt at people who do the "average showings only!" shit

So why not post all relevant feats from Actions Comics, Justice League of America, Superman and Dragon Ball, and let people come to their own conclusions of who'd win? Especially now, after Flashpoint reboot, when we've been given a unique opportunity to catch up?

Because nothing will change.

Nu52 is somewhat weaker than PostC, but he's still FTL and over planetary. Again, he has lower showings for the sake of storytelling, and it'll be those feats that will only be taken.

Or DBZ feats being blown out of proportion.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Neither do you, frankly.

If you were really going by "average" showings you wouldn't dismiss Superman's highest showings.

Not dismissing any of his showings tbh. I'm using his average as the majority, not the minority. We accept the lows, mid, and highs and Goku has the power output via physically and blast wise to drop him. Same goes for Superman but when you look at consistency, Goku rapes.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Because nothing will change.

Nu52 is somewhat weaker than PostC, but he's still FTL and over planetary. Again, he has lower showings for the sake of storytelling, and it'll be those feats that will only be taken.

Or DBZ feats being blown out of proportion.

No he is not. He doesn't have a single combat showing proving he is FTL unless you know of something that I don't.

Lower showings? How about you say MAJORITY of his showings. High showings doesn't happen in every comic ya know...it's something that spread out which is the reason we look at a characters average. If we are going to sit here and pick choose fts, then I need to make my Hulk vs Galactus thread since he did recently almost over power a freaking abstract, survived a universe exploding on him, punched so hard time reversed, over powered a dimensional bfr, punched through a shield that an abstract weapon couldn't breached, overpowered time stop, and the list goes on. Hulk vs Galactus. Ignore his other showings and focus on his highs. Hulk stomps.

You still haven't answered my question, Carv.

What speed and strength level is Superman at, using your preferred averages?

Also the same for Goku seeing as I saw you say he isn't planetary or something like that.

Its speed up a lot of debates if you just tell me now what level they're at.

carver are you saying that because of average showings they are capable of doing above average feats anymore even tho they have performed them before?

Originally posted by chasedown
carver are you saying that because of average showings they aren't capable of doing above average feats anymore even tho they have performed them before?

In Superman Vol. 3 #13, where Superman did bench press the weight of the Earth he also fought an alien creature and the narration was clear on that Superman went all-out and that his punches would've toppled a small mountain. When he later fought H'el in Superman Vol. 3 #17, the narration now said that his punches could topple mountains; and Dr. Veritas who gauged Superman's strength in Superman Vol. 3 #13 pointed out that he had gotten stronger.

The narration is rather clear on how hard Superman can punch; he can punch hard enough to topple a mountain. The problem is that people ignore this and points out that he bench pressed the weight of the Earth, as if it had any relevance in regards to how hard he can hit.

Originally posted by carver9
I'm using his average as the majority, not the minority.

Originally posted by Astner
No. What he's saying is that these feats aren't gauged properly; and whether you like it or not, he's right—I'm not saying that he's right in his opinion, I'm saying that he's right in his argument. Case and point:

In Superman Vol. 3 #13, where Superman did bench press the weight of the Earth he also fought an alien creature and the narration was clear on that Superman went all-out and that his punches would've toppled a small mountain. When he later fought H'el in Superman Vol. 3 #17, the narration now said that his punches could topple mountains; and Dr. Veritas who gauged Superman's strength in Superman Vol. 3 #13 pointed out that he had gotten stronger.

The narration is rather clear on how hard Superman can punch; he can punch hard enough to topple a mountain. The problem is that people ignore this and points out that he bench pressed the weight of the Earth, as if it had any relevance in regards to how hard he can hit.

what does what you just posted have to do with averages?

It doesn't? We all know that lifting strength does not equal punching strength 1:1, but someone with casual Earth lifting strength will be hitting harder than taking a single mountain down.

Tens of millions times the difference.

Tbh I can't see a fair method to create these hypothetical averages of characters. Do we start looking into his lowest, street level showings to draw an accurate conclusion?

Originally posted by BloodRain
It doesn't? We all know that lifting strength does not equal punching strength 1:1, but someone with casual Earth lifting strength will be hitting harder than taking a single mountain down.

Tens of millions times the difference.

Originally posted by chasedown
what does what you just posted have to do with averages?

Originally posted by Astner
In an impact with minor deformation you're working with an event where the conservation of momentum holds, momentum being a function of mass and velocity accordingly: P = γmv. "Strength" on the other hand is represented by force: F = ma. These are not commutable. As a corollary there are hydraulic jacks that can lift a hundred tons but they don't deliver any significant impact.

The muscles used in a bench press will contain the necessary strength within, and it is those very same muscles that would be throwing a punch. With 100% the exact level of force? No, that's not how it works. But that strength is still coming from the same place so I can't see any logical way the same muscles can be applied with such a drastic difference.

Originally posted by BloodRain
You know very well that humans do not function exactly the same as machines. The strength from muscles can be applied in various different ways, where a straightforward jack cannot.

The problem here is that you're trying to come up with excuses to ignore what happened in the comics when there's no need to, and worse, it's all based on conjecture.

Originally posted by BloodRain
The muscles used in a bench press will contain the necessary strength within, and it is those very same muscles that would be throwing a punch. With 100% the exact level of force? No, that's not how it works. But that strength is still coming from the same place so I can't see any logical way the same muscles can be applied with such a drastic difference.

Originally posted by Astner
And Superman doesn't function exactly as a human. Force and momentum aren't commutable, and the writer that wrote the bench pressing scene also wrote the two consecutive narrations specifying mountain-toppling punches.

The problem here is that you're trying to come up with excuses to ignore what happened in the comics when there's no need to.

But you can accept that the Flash can throw punches as hard as Superman's despite not having super strength?

He would still act like a human over a machine. Its an excuse to say a guy with casual planetary strength can't apply even a thousandth of the power already in his body in any other way?

I did not know he could, or at least not an all out Supes. I assume you're talking about the infinite mass punch? Well that's about speed, right?

Originally posted by BloodRain
He would still act like a human over a machine. Its an excuse to say a guy with casual planetary strength can't apply even a thousandth of the power already in his body in any other way?

Originally posted by BloodRain
I did not know he could, or at least not an all out Supes. I assume you're talking about the infinite mass punch? Well that's about speed, right?

Originally posted by BloodRain
It doesn't? We all know that lifting strength does not equal punching strength 1:1, but someone with casual Earth lifting strength will be hitting harder than taking a single mountain down.

Tens of millions times the difference.

Tbh I can't see a fair method to create these hypothetical averages of characters. Do we start looking into his lowest, street level showings to draw an accurate conclusion?

You're wrong though.

Here Superman blitz H'el and starts pounding on him. The narration states that he is delivering blows that could topple mountains.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/20355739/10-11.jpg.html

The scan after this states that he isn't holding back. His power is exceeding that which was measure before (his earth benching showing). The same doctor that measured his earth benching showing also measured his punching power which was freaking mountain busting.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/20355740/12.jpg.html

Not only did she say he wasn't holding back, she said that he is EXCEEDING that of his earth benching showing.

Proof that it's the same doctor.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/132530/2743131-new_superman_1.jpg

Which one do we accept? The H'el showing is the latest showing. Let me guess. You all want to accept the highest. Let's nip this in the bud. The same freaking Superman comics AFTER the H'el showing said that there is only one being in the universe that can destroy a planet and he sure as hell isn't talking about himself, he is talking about Darkseid.

http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/carver9/media-full//Screenshot_2014-05-27-20-58-27_zps2b55bf51.png.html

It's not up to me to tell you these characters average, if you're debating for or against him/her, you probably need to read up on them. Keep accepting highs if you want but know this, for every high showing you accept, there are at least 10 showings contradicting it.

Goku stomps

Originally posted by BloodRain
He would still act like a human over a machine. Its an excuse to say a guy with casual planetary strength can't apply even a thousandth of the power already in his body in any other way?

I did not know he could, or at least not an all out Supes. I assume you're talking about the infinite mass punch? Well that's about speed, right?

Lol...Superman himself admitted he couldn't destroy a planet. Get over it. Hell, even sun dipped he said that he has enough strength to topple mountains.

Originally posted by BloodRain
You still haven't answered my question, Carv.

What speed and strength level is Superman at, using your preferred averages?

Also the same for Goku seeing as I saw you say he isn't planetary or something like that.

Its speed up a lot of debates if you just tell me now what level they're at.

Never said Goku 'isn't ' planetary, I said on average he will not be dishing out planetary power. That's the difference between these two. Goku has and is a planetary level plus beings always...This doesn't apply to Superman. Especially when he himself has admitted he couldn't do it and have fts going against what he has done. Do you not see the difference?

Originally posted by carver9
Never said Goku 'isn't ' planetary, I said on average he will not be dishing out planetary power. That's the difference between these two. Goku has and is a planetary level plus beings always...This doesn't apply to Superman. Especially when he himself has admitted he couldn't do it and have fts going against what he has done. Do you not see the difference?

Superman: How strong and fast according to your averages?

Goku: How strong and fast according to your averages?

You can keep going on about him doing this that one time, or that shocking tweet he posted, but it is not what I am asking.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Again, I honest do not care about anything that isn't the question addressed to you;

Superman: How strong and fast according to your averages?

Goku: How strong and fast according to your averages?

You can keep going on about him doing this that one time, or that shocking tweet he posted, but it is not what I am asking.

Hard question to answer my friend since there isn't an accurate answer for either of these beings.