Count Dooku vs. Savage Opress (lightsaber only)

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't know why your putting Maul's TK on the same level as Dooku's, when he's never actually defeated Kenobi with it, whilst Dooku clearly has.

In fact I don't know how you can put Maul in a whole category above Kenobi, when he's only defeated him once by using Dun Moch.

Yes their TK levels at the same level. Maul's TK is strong enough to manipulate a spaceship (Eta-class shuttle) from long distance.

YouTube video

And never actually defeated Kenobi ? Maul defeated Kenobi 3 times.

Force choke

Force grip & force blast

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Force choke & force pull

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Wasn't it directly stated that Maul isn't as powerful as Dooku and Vader?

Yep.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wasn't it directly stated that Maul isn't as powerful as Dooku and Vader?

Who said that nonsense ? Lucas says, they are at the same level.

This is where Lucas says, Sidious never planned to change Maul ;

"After Darth Sidious' first apprentice is killed, he has to come up with a new apprentice, and rather than coming up with some baby that he trains from birth, which is what he should have done--well he shouldn't have gotten himself in a position of getting his apprentice killed anyways ,--he's decided to make his move, so he needs somebody that was already trained. The point is to set up that he turned this one Jedi, so that he could turn another Jedi. It has to be set up that way."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

And here says, (TPM Maul btw) Maul, Dooku and Vader at the same level ;

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that." --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

That is why TPM Maul manage to kick Vader's ass but, who am I talking to ? Maul hate on this site is out of balance 😠

Don't remember. It was something like:

"While not as powerful as Darth Vader, or even Dooku, Maul is able to stand besides them through sheer force of will or something."

Originally posted by Marco1907
Yes their TK levels at the same level. Maul's TK is strong enough to manipulate a spaceship (Eta-class shuttle) from long distance.

Savage threw a Jedi Craft about the same size, when he was no where near as powerful as Dooku in the Force.

So no, that doesn't make Maul Dooku's equal in the Force.

Originally posted by Marco1907
And never actually defeated Kenobi ? Maul defeated Kenobi 3 times.

No he hasn't.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Force choke

This is the only time he did actually defeat him with TK alone. But there is context.

Kenobi is clearly caught off guard. Fight hadn't even begun. Plus it was possibly a place strong in the dark side.

Later in "Revival" however, Maul clashes with Kenobi 1 on 1 for over a minute. Why didn't he force choke him if it's that easy?

Because he has to catch him off guard, that's why.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Force grip & force blast

He never defeated Kenobi there, despite having help from Opress.

You really do ignore context. How much do you think Kenobi must have been tiring in that fight by fighting both Maul and Opress?

Originally posted by Marco1907
Force choke & force pull

He had a concussion! Jeez talk about leaving out context and lowballing!

Marco is like Sion - no matter how many times you strike him down, he will return. Who shall be our Exile?

Originally posted by Selenial
Actually, that's more the fact that the way they're reaching, neither can put full force into their push, but Dooku's defensive block is in a perfect position to put his full strength into it.

That was less physical prowess, more ingenuity.

Precisely. Yet another example of how skill and technique beat power alone.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And in fact it goes on to say "especially while fending off a second attacker" or something like that.

So yeah a 1 vs 1, where Dooku deflects, evades and gives ground, is a completely different situation.

That's right.

Originally posted by Marco1907
From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that." --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

That isn't saying he is as strong as either Count Dooku or Darth Vader. That is saying, character wise, they are similar. As in, none of them achieved what Sidious had planned for them. None of them earned being the Master of the Sith order like Sidious wanted them too

Originally posted by WildBantha88
That isn't saying he is as strong as either Count Dooku or Darth Vader. That is saying, character wise, they are similar. As in, none of them achieved what Sidious had planned for them. None of them earned being the Master of the Sith order like Sidious wanted them too

👆

Neither of them became as powerful as Sidious was the point of that sentence.

@Marco: He never specified TPM Maul. He just said Darth Maul. You're assuming it was TPM Maul because TCW wasn't around then, but it was already in development. So reviving Maul might have already been in Lucas' s mind.

Either way you can easily replace TPM Maul with TCW Maul in that line and it won't change the meaning of the line 1 bit.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't remember. It was something like:

"While not as powerful as Darth Vader, or even Dooku, Maul is able to stand besides them through sheer force of will or something."

After re-thinking, I think that's not wrong at somepoint. It's true that Maul's TK is not at their level, probably not even in TCW, though I think TCW Maul's TK is very close to Dooku's , still Dooku has force lightning.

However, it says that Maul at the same level (stands alone with them) with Vader and Dooku because he has - sheer force of will -

Means ; Maul physically better than both.

- Against Dooku ; Maul is much stronger and durable.

- Against Vader ; Maul is much faster.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Savage threw a Jedi Craft about the same size, when he was no where near as powerful as Dooku in the Force.

So no, that doesn't make Maul Dooku's equal in the Force.

You forget that Savage force choked Dooku and Ventress at the same time. And used force wave that knocked out Anakin & Obi-Wan. Don't underestimate Savage's force potential.

And Maul still stronger than Savage in TK, which means Maul at the same league with Dooku. And jedi craft is not the same thing with eta-class shuttle, Maul pulled that from long distance and that was much bigger.

Originally posted by Marco1907
After re-thinking, I think that's not wrong at somepoint. It's true that Maul's TK is not at their level, probably not even in TCW, though I think TCW Maul's TK is very close to Dooku's , still Dooku has force lightning.

However, it says that Maul at the same level (stands alone with them) with Vader and Dooku because he has - sheer force of will -

Means ; Maul physically better than both.

- Against Dooku ; Maul is much stronger and durable.

- Against Vader ; Maul is much faster.

I don't think thats what that means.

Maul isn't physically stronger than Vader either 😬

Edit: And that comic artwork for Kenobi is horrible

Originally posted by Marco1907

You forget that Savage force choked Dooku and Ventress at the same time.

In an Amped Rage enhanced state and catching them off guard. As usual you're ignoring context.

Originally posted by Marco1907
And used force wave that knocked out Anakin & Obi-Wan.

He never KO's them.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Don't underestimate Savage's force potential.

Oh he's a potential Force TK Beast. But nothing next to Dooku, as shown in their training session.

Originally posted by Marco1907
And Maul still stronger than Savage in TK,

Prove it.

Originally posted by Marco1907
which means Maul at the same league with Dooku.

Nah, he can't even KO Obi-Wan with his TK. Dooku's TK > Maul's TK =/~ Opress's TK > Kenobi's TK.

Originally posted by Marco1907
And jedi craft is not the same thing with eta-class shuttle, Maul pulled that from long distance and that was much bigger.

It's not much bigger at all. It's about the same size. And Maul took more time to throw it than Opress did, and did so while he was "Desperate.

This is the only time he did actually defeat him with TK alone. But there is context.

Kenobi is clearly caught off guard. Fight hadn't even begun. Plus it was possibly a place strong in the dark side.

Later in "Revival" however, Maul clashes with Kenobi 1 on 1 for over a minute. Why didn't he force choke him if it's that easy?

Because he has to catch him off guard, that's why.

Originally posted by carthage
Maul isn't physically stronger than Vader either 😬

Edit: And that comic artwork for Kenobi is horrible

And that is why I said Maul is much faster than Vader, much stronger than Dooku.

Maul has every physical weapon at his side. While Dooku has only speed, Vader has only strength and durability (except to force lightning).

Maul isn't faster than Vader.

Originally posted by Arhael
The same assessment can be applied to Dooku. Why didn't he take out Kenobi in S6 with TK? Why didn't he take out Kenobi straight away in RotS and risked getting surrounded from opposite sides before finally making it? Because he needed to catch him off guard.

True but Dooku catches him off guard mid-battle. Not before the fight even begins, or after his opponent is tired from fighting 2 opponents. Sometimes he catches them off-guard with physical attacks, sometimes with Tk attacks. But important thing is he does those things mid-battle giving them a fair chance to fight back or take him down.

Catching someone off guard with an unexpected move mid-combat is an essential part of combat. But you should know that ; )

That's why I say Dooku is the superior "all-out" combatant.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Maul isn't faster than Vader.

😆 😆 😆

Please tell me that you are joking...

And you can see the difference in this fight, and btw TCW Maul is faster than TPM Maul. (I confirmed that recently)

YouTube video

Not to mention, Lucas himself already said that Darth Vader is crippled half droid half man and slow, that is why he wanted to be much more energetic and faster ; Darth Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
True but Dooku catches him off guard mid-battle. Not before the fight even begins, or after his opponent is tired from fighting 2 opponents. Sometimes he catches them off-guard with physical attacks, sometimes with Tk attacks. But important thing is he does those things mid-battle giving them a fair chance to fight back or take him down.

Catching someone off guard with an unexpected move mid-combat is an essential part of combat. But you should know that ; )

That's why I say Dooku is the superior "all-out" combatant.

Even if Dooku is superior, the difference is so small that it would still be relatively an even fight.