Originally posted by ArhaelEven if Dooku is superior, the difference is so small that it would still be relatively an even fight.
Agreed.
I only gave 6 of 10 win, in terms of force powers to Dooku against Maul, and that's only because of force lightning advantage. TCW Maul is very close to Dooku in terms of telekinesis.
Originally posted by Arhael
Maul lifted Kenobi up and threw against the wall, when he fought him with Opress. That TK blast after I would, also, consider mid-combat.
Yeah but don't you think Kenobi would have been tiring fighting off both Maul brothers?
Originally posted by Arhael
Also, Kenobi saw Maul before Maul started Force choking him, in that moment Kenobi wasn't busy with blocking lightsaber attacks and wasn't in a midst of an attacking move, so that should only make it harder to Force choke him.
Yeah that one's crazy but impressive. But just seems inconsistent with what TCW showed us Imho.
Originally posted by Arhael
Even if Dooku is superior, the difference is so small that it would still be relatively an even fight.
You see I think there's a small difference in Sabers, and another small difference in TK. Then Dooku's shown his prowess as a combatant by combining those things several times.
So even though there's a small difference in each area, I think overall the difference becomes noticeable.
But hey Maul's still alive, while Dooku is dead. So maybe he'll grow even more powerful, and maybe Kenobi will still beat him 😉 Will just have to see.
Originally posted by Marco1907
Agreed.I only gave 6 of 10 win, in terms of force powers to Dooku against Maul, and that's only because of force lightning advantage. TCW Maul is very close to Dooku in terms of telekinesis.
No way. Even assuming that Dooku and Maul are comperable in terms of TK (which I doubt, Dooku is superior imo), Dooku has much more other skills then Maul.
Equal TK = 50-50 in pure TK battle. But Dooku has really nice Force deflect (even surprised, he was able to easily deflect his own lightning). He also has a nice FL, and he's very good at combining this with his TK. Even if we assume, that Maul's TK is equal to Dooku's, there is nothing on Maul's side that could give him an advantage over Count in strict Force battle. That battle would be very close (assuming that they're equal in TK), but Dooku would finally won every single fight.
Originally posted by McP
No way. Even assuming that Dooku and Maul are comperable in terms of TK (which I doubt, Dooku is superior imo), Dooku has much more other skills then Maul.
Equal TK = 50-50 in pure TK battle. But Dooku has really nice Force deflect (even surprised, he was able to easily deflect his own lightning). He also has a nice FL, and he's very good at combining this with his TK. Even if we assume, that Maul's TK is equal to Dooku's, there is nothing on Maul's side that could give him an advantage over Count in strict Force battle. That battle would be very close (assuming that they're equal in TK), but Dooku would finally won every single fight.
You are underestimating dark rage of Maul. He simply created a telekinetic wave and turned into spider-monster with it. (If not, then he used force drain, choose one of them) Dark rage is inconsistent power set but still, he can win few TK rounds with it. Even in deleted scenes in Sidious battle at mandalore, Maul used a force blast which is disarmed Sidious.
Considering that Savage has very high level TK when he get angry (he force choked Count Dooku), I think it should apply to Maul as well.
Originally posted by Marco1907Considering that Savage has very high level TK when he get angry (he force choked Count Dooku), I think it should apply to Maul as well.
That was an amped Savage who caught Dooku by surprise.
Amped Savage has definitely displayed more raw Tk power than Maul ever has. Maul has however displayed more skill at applying his Tk- Precisely levitating Kenobi for instance, unlike Opress who just shoots out Force Waves.
Originally posted by Marco1907
Even in deleted scenes in Sidious battle at mandalore, Maul used a force blast which is disarmed Sidious.
Yeah, that's right. And I actually consider it as a canon. It only proves, that someone who is much more powerful then his enemy can be caught by surprise. Even Sidious. Dooku being force choked by Opress is a very similar example. Even Anakin and Ventress'.
Anyway, Dooku's guard in the Force is quite strong. Sora Bulq (who was able to push Windu onto wall) was unable to do anything against Dooku (even if Dooku had to split his concentration between Bulq and Tholme).
Dooku was also untouched by Windu's Force wave (which temporary KO'ed 2 Magnaguards). Savage did something similar when he fought droids after his duel with Anakin and Obi-Wan. I doubt that either Mace, Maul and Opress would be able to break Dooku's Force guard with that kind of attack.
Dooku is somehow more skilled TK user then Maul. Maul can be close, when he's angry or very determined (as he was when he and Savage were runing before Obi-Wan and pirates). And Maul's anger and determination are temporary. And Maul might be also easier to be catched off guard in that state.
And as Darth Power noted - it looks like Savage has more raw power in the Force then Maul.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Maul can make more precise use of his TK. Which is down to training and skill. But that doesn't necessarily mean he has equal raw power to Opress.Opress has a mean Force Wave. It's that backed by his Beastly strength that allows him to defeat even some Council Members.
I actually made a pretty detailed post on this.. and then I got hit with the "you can't post links yet" thing 😐
Originally posted by Marco1907and btw TCW Maul is faster than TPM Maul. (I confirmed that recently)
Btw Marco, there's no confirmation of this. Just because TCW Maul is more powerful in the force than TPM Maul, does not necessarily mean he moves faster.
Especially considering his natural legs have been replaced by mechanical ones, therefore his speed may be limited by the mechanics of his cybernetic legs, much like Vader.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Btw Marco, there's no confirmation of this. Just because TCW Maul is more powerful in the force than TPM Maul, does not necessarily mean he moves faster.Especially considering his natural legs have been replaced by mechanical ones, therefore his speed may be limited by the mechanics of his cybernetic legs, much like Vader.
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4133538
This is why he thinks that. Because Fry said he got better "in general."
^ Oh ok. Thanks.
Edit -"In general" doesn't really sound like a massive amp in any particular category. In fact as far as I'm aware the book never quantified the extent of his improvement. I personally think it was probably just a modest improvement in all areas. The largest amp we see though is definitely in his Tk. Of course we're not aware how good Maul's Tk was at the time of TPM, so even that may be a modest difference.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERAmped Savage has definitely displayed more raw Tk power than Maul ever has. Maul has however displayed more skill at applying his Tk- Precisely levitating Kenobi for instance, unlike Opress who just shoots out Force Waves.
I think we can compare them better with high end feats. Both Maul and Savage manipulated small spaceships.
Maul manipulated Eta-Class Shuttle ;
Savage manipulated T-6 Shuttle ;
Both are impressive. However, Eta-Class Shuttle is a little bigger than T-6, and it is armored shuttle, unlike T-6 which is un-armed shuttle.
I think Maul has a little better raw force power than Savage, and much better skill at using it.
Also, another example here; Savage's force wave didn't affect him once ;
This is similar to Vader & Sidious (in the end of RotS) and also similar to Ventress & Dooku, didn't affect him also ;
Originally posted by Marco1907
I think we can compare them better with high end feats. Both Maul and Savage manipulated small spaceships.Maul manipulated Eta-Class Shuttle ;
Savage manipulated T-6 Shuttle ;
Both are impressive. However, Eta-Class Shuttle is a little bigger than T-6, and it is armored shuttle, unlike T-6 which is un-armed shuttle.
I think Maul has a little better raw force power than Savage, and much better skill at using it.
Both those feats are about the same in terms of raw power. I wouldn't get into armored and not armored, as I doubt the creators of the show put much thought into that.
But yeah Maul can apply his raw power with much more skill and precision.
But Dooku's raw power was well above Savage's as we saw in their training session. The BEST Dooku got out of him in their training was still well below Dooku's ability.
But to be fair the Rage Enhanced Savage we saw later on was even more powerful, but he also has feats above Maul in that state (flooring/disabling 3 Destroyer droids + a dozen battle droids + 2 Jedi in one Beastly Rage enhanced Blast).
Originally posted by Marco1907
Also, another example here; Savage's force wave didn't affect him once ;
Nah, that was just a Frontal Force Wave, not an Omnidirectional one. So Maul was safe and sound behind him. There's no way Maul could just tank Savage's Force waves without even budging. They're about equal in raw power, and if anything going by feats like that, I'd give Savage the edge in raw power.
But damn, I forgot how good that episode was!
Originally posted by Marco1907
Both are impressive. However, Eta-Class Shuttle is a little bigger than T-6, and it is armored shuttle, unlike T-6 which is un-armed shuttle.
Originally posted by Marco1907
(...)and much better skill at using it.
But look at this from the other side - If Maul had superior technique (I guess, everyone will agree with that), and their feats were more or less comperable, then there must be something that enabled Savage to recompensate his lack of skill. And it was his superior raw-power in the Force.
It doesn't put Opress above Maul. In fact, pure skill is much more important then raw power in almost every fight.
And it have to be noted, that Savage's superior raw power in terms of TK doesn't necessary mean, that he has superior raw power in the Force overall. Perhaps Maul was stronger in the Force, but Savage was more talented in terms of TK.
Just like Yoda is far stronger and skilled in the Force then Mace, Mace is much more talented in terms of shatterpoint which makes him superior user of it.
Originally posted by Marco1907
Also, another example here; Savage's force wave didn't affect him once
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah, that was just a Frontal Force Wave, not an Omnidirectional one. So Maul was safe and sound behind him. There's no way Maul could just tank Savage's Force waves without even budging.