Eternity is embodiment of time. Infinity was retconned into being the embodiment of space. Eternity has been used numerous times as a representation of the universe and so Infinity gets left out a lot.
Multi-Eternity was established during Abraxas arc quite definitively. You can't exactly ignore it. Besides, it makes perfect sense there are multiple Eternities representing their own universes. Why? Because we've actually seen these alternate Eternities on-panel in What If? stories.
Originally posted by Branlor Swiftcentury
But he wasn't an actual multiverse nor has he ever been in comics.It seems a silly assumption to assume some flowery language retcons half a decade or so of canon.
Originally posted by BeyonderGod- Hank Pym
It seems he was a multiverse...........
"As the multiverse takes form"
*pops out the living tribunal*
Originally posted by Galan007Like I said it's a silly assumption to think one little throwaway line suddenly completely retcons both Eternity and Living Tribunal in almost a complete revamp of LT.
To be fair, if you're going to question/disregard one part of Pym's recollection of said events, then you'll have to question/disregard his entire recollection of said events....But why do either? Hickman is who 'really' made those statements--what was stated/shown was clearly intended to be fact.
Yes I realize the intention but at the end of the day it's still Hank Pym's take on the character Living Tribunal. Nothing else he said was really refutable except this. The only other controversial thing he said was then backed up by Molecule Man. Which is also backed up by the retcon of Beyonder in the first place being fed miniscule power by higher beings.
He was not shown to be an actual multiverse. Instead of looking to retcon a huge part of how Marvel works we could just say LT represents the power of the multiverse. Which is fitting to his character.
Until that's actually expanded upon, if ever, it's safer to assume his entire character hasn't been changed into another character. At least imo.
Um, "one little throwaway line" is exactly what introduced the concept of Multi-Eternity to begin with. I didn't see anyone questioning that. srsly
I mean, do we need to have an entire issue devoted to explaining why/how LT was acting as the embodiment of the multiverse against the Beyonders, or should we simply do the most logical thing and accept Pym's/Hickman's assertion of his power as fact? After all, Eternity/Infinity had already been killed(presumably across the multiverse) by the time LT confronted the Beyonders, so he[LT] would have been the only entity left in creation who was powerful/important enough to act in a multiversal capacity anyway. What's the big deal?
Honestly, if you're going to act like Pym's/Hickman's statement about LT counts for nothing, then you have to throw out everything else he said/saw in that issue as well. You can't just pick and choose which of his statements you'll accept and which you won't.
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Btw, I'm not saying LT was *actually* the physical multiverse. That's no more factual then saying Eternity/Infinity were *actually* the physical universe when the Beyonders killed them. If they had been, the universe would have ceased to exist when Eternity/Infinity were killed, and the multiverse would have ceased to exist when LT was killed... Neither of which happened, obviously.
Originally posted by Galan007And we got an expanded look at how Multi Eternity worked in comics. We got in depth statements and looks.
Um, "one little throwaway line" is exactly what introduced the concept of Multi-Eternity to begin with. I didn't see anyone questioning that. srslyI mean, do we need to have an entire issue devoted to explaining why/how LT was acting as the embodiment of the multiverse against the Beyonders, or should we simply do the most logical thing and accept Pym's/Hickman's assertion of his power as fact? After all, Eternity/Infinity had already been killed(presumably across the multiverse) by the time LT confronted the Beyonders, so he[LT] would have been the only entity left in creation who was powerful/important enough to act in a multiversal capacity anyway. What's the big deal?
Honestly, if you're going to act like Pym's/Hickman's statement about LT counts for nothing, then you have to throw out everything else he said/saw in that issue as well. You can't just pick and choose which of his statements you'll accept and which you won't.
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Btw, I'm not saying LT was *actually* the physical multiverse. That's no more factual then saying Eternity/Infinity were *actually* the physical universe when the Beyonders killed them. If they had been, the universe would have ceased to exist when Eternity/Infinity were killed, and the multiverse would have ceased to exist when LT was killed... Neither of which happened, obviously.
We don't need anything explained to explain LT's presence there though. That's the issue. Nothing needs to be explained if he was there. What we should assume is that we'd need something explaining Hank Pym's statement if we take it as fact considering it's a huge retcon.
I have no issue with LT being there. That goes against nothing. LT was just acting as a judge there if we ignore the multiverse part. What I'm saying and what I've repeatedly stated is that one throwaway line changes him from multiversal judge to being multi Eternity. That changes a whole lot of canon for us to just assume that one throwaway line can be interpreted as fact. It's not like his position got expanded there, it's that he became Multi Eternity. A completely different character in role. All he became was just a bigger Eternity.
But yes, what is the big deal? I'm merely saying that one statement from Hank Pym doesn't retcon pretty much everything. Not a tough pill to swallow by any means.
What?
Why would we have to throw away everything? Nothing he stated there was an opinion there except LT being multi Eternity, and Beyonder being a child. I'm not questioning his ability to tell the truth, I'm questioning his ability to so plainly misjudge a character's role in one of his "opinions". That's not picking and choosing, that's saying that the only opinion he shared on the matter that wasn't backed up should be called into question. In case you haven't noticed, we saw them kill the Celestials, we saw them kill the abstracts. We have facts. What we didn't see is Living Tribunal being all of reality taken form. That's merely flowery language from Pym that should in no way serve as a definitive retcon.
But what is being said is that LT is all of reality much in the way of how Eternity/Infinity are the universe. IE it makes no difference. He is the multiverse but his life isn't dependant on the survival of it.
Also, I'm not speaking in any way of power here. Living Tribunal is already established. I'm merely speaking of hierarchical roles being switched.
Which is why I stated that the statement would make more sense if it was speaking as if Living Tribunal represented all the power of the multiverse, as opposed to being the multiverse. That's more in line with pre established canon. The other way is an entirely new idea that completely revamps the idea of Living Tribunal, which is why I'm not a fan of using it as a definitive retcon as I feel too many things could be "retconned" if we look at it this way, and quite frankly, I hate retcons...
Except for Beyonder. **** Beyonder.
Originally posted by BeyonderGodThe issue is that retcons are bullshit and very very rarely needed unless someone screws up completely.
I don't see a problem to be honest.......
People should be looking more away from them as opposed to just accepting anything that could be perceived as one.
For example, what Bendis did to Beyonder. Which retroactively looking at it makes it better, but Bendis did mean to shove that into canon. People lapped that up, and then later acted like "oh boy now we don't know what Beyonder is" when later issues stuck to previously established canon.
Which turned into them retconning Bendis' retcon that retconned him being a cosmic Cube that retconned him being jumpsuit God.
If you can see my ire in retcons. But that's more playing towards what effects you. Quite frankly, Beyonder's initial retcon was the best retcon ever. I'm sure you agree. 👆
Originally posted by Galan007What things did Pym say besides that and Beyonder child that we didn't see backed up... in that issue?
Yeah, not reading that wall-o-text.Anyway, my point is that there is no legitimate reason to doubt Pym's/Hickman's statement regarding LT. You can't except some parts of his recollection as fact, and throw out others just because you don't agree with them. It doesn't work that way. 👆
It's not a tough concept. You act like it has to be picking and choosing but everything else was backed up. The only thing that hasn't is LT's status being downgraded.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Why would he need to though? He's already above that level.
He has this weird thing going on about using weird powers to stop his opposers, like when he used a supernova against Korvac. Technically it would be within character for LT to measure the Beyonders against Multieternity if they want to replace/destroy it, since they are allowed to do it as long as they are the fittest.
Originally posted by Branlor SwiftWe didn't see the Beyonders kill infinite Celestials, did we? Nope, but we still assume it happened because that's what Pym told us. The Beyonders also weren't shown killing Love, Hate, Stranger, Kronos, etc. etc., but we obviously still assume the entire hierarchy was slain due to the implications of the story itself.
What things did Pym say besides that and Beyonder child that we didn't see backed up... in that issue?It's not a tough concept. You act like it has to be picking and choosing but everything else was backed up. The only thing that hasn't is LT's status being downgraded.
That said, Pym makes an explicit statement: "The Beyonders turned, something catching their attention. And then I saw what they saw. All of reality--the multiverse--taken form."
If you want to doubt the validity of that one particular statement, but accept everything else he said as gospel, then go right ahead. I think that's pretty ridiculous, though.
Originally posted by Galan007So, you're going to use a giant fallacy to try and prove your point then? Because the only way infinite Celestials could be shown to die is for infinite space to be used for the comic. 😂 In any case, we were shown the end result of all the Celestials dying. Irrelevant point.
We didn't see the Beyonders kill infinite Celestials, did we? Nope, but we still assume it happened because that's what Pym told us. The Beyonders also weren't shown killing Love, Hate, Stranger, Kronos, etc. etc., but we obviously still assume the entire hierarchy was slain due to the implications of the story itself.That said, Pym makes an explicit statement: "The Beyonders turned, something catching their attention. And then I saw what they saw. All of reality--the multiverse--taken form."
If you want to doubt the validity of that one particular statement, but accept everything else he said as gospel, then go right ahead. I think that's pretty ridiculous, though.
I'm not sure we have to though in that case. They are such minor deities that it doesn't make a difference whether they were there or not. Not to mention you're going by implications, not by Hank's actual word there. That's not the story giving details that could make Hank wrong, that's you adding details into the story.
Both of your examples would also involve actual things happening, that in your opinion go without saying. And you're lumping in "LT is a multiverse" into things that go without saying. So yeah.
That doesn't even make sense though for Pym to see it especially when we could see planets and stars in the background. 😬
How is Pym supposed to see that taking place when reality still clearly exists around Living Tribunal? Looks like all he saw was LT manifesting.
But nothing else is arguable... like at all. You pretending it is doesn't mean I'm picking and choosing here. Everything else he stated was fact backed up by something else or that itself. The only thing that wasn't is what you guys are seeing as a retcon.
Which the act of seeing it as a retcon kind of shows it's unsupported beyond it's own sphere.
Here's a hint. Read my "wall of text". You might not disagree with my reasons for disagreeing with said statement.
Originally posted by Bentley
He has this weird thing going on about using weird powers to stop his opposers, like when he used a supernova against Korvac. Technically it would be within character for LT to measure the Beyonders against Multieternity if they want to replace/destroy it, since they are allowed to do it as long as they are the fittest.
While that may be a possibility, all that does is mean there was no retcon taking place. It just means a potential temporary power usage in your case as opposed to an actual status change.
Although him trying to judge their merits wouldn't make sense as he saw how chaotic they were. He just got pissed off and tried to beat them.