New 'Secret Wars' is Marvel Comics' major event of 2015

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
So, you're going to use a giant fallacy to try and prove your point then? Because the only way infinite Celestials could be shown to die is for infinite space to be used for the comic. 😂

Originally posted by Galan007
Glad you said that, because the same basic logic applies to LT here. Embodying an infinite amount of universes is a role that can only be verbalized in a comic book--it can obviously not be shown in its totality, for the very same reason each and every Celestial the Beyonders killed weren't shown. 🙂

Originally posted by Galan007
Glad you said that, because the same basic logic applies to LT here. Embodying an infinite amount of universes is a role that can only be verbalized in a comic book--it can obviously not be shown in its totality, for the very same reason each and every Celestial the Beyonders killed weren't shown. 🙂

LT wasn't shown to embody anything though if you're going that route. We were shown the end result of the Celestials. As well as space clearly existing outside LT. It's not an accurate comparison. There was no indication of LT being the multiverse outside one statement. Hank was watching the Beyonders kill Celestials until they ran out. He wasn't watching a multiverse become a being.
It's one thing to relay information of what you saw, it's another to assume you saw the entirety of the multiverse... all reality become Living Tribunal... especially when all reality would embody the planets behind them

Basically it boils down to this:

Has LT ever been shown to be the full multiverse before?

Has LT been farther backed up or shown to be that since then?

Is one sentence enough to cause a full retcon to his status?

Is one statement from Hank Pym enough to cause a full retcon to his status?

Because hyperbole exists in comics. Even from Hickman.

A logical explanation before taking it literally and running to "retcon" is a better choice imo. Of which there are a few.

😂

Okay, Bran.

I'm not sure why you're so pro retcon though.

Do you think it diminishes LT if he wasn't the multiverse or something because by all means this should be below his status, or power considering the whole "Megaverse" thing.

What I'm saying has no indication of power though. Only of the possibility of an established character becoming another.

It'd be like Eternity randomly becoming the balance between Chaos and Order.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
LT wasn't shown to embody anything though if you're going that route. We were shown the end result of the Celestials. As well as space clearly existing outside LT. It's not an accurate comparison. There was no indication of LT being the multiverse outside one statement.

This is just how you write comics. You narrate what's difficult to explain with illustrations.

Originally posted by Astner
What about Eternity and the other abstracts? Clearly their universes didn't end because they were killed.

This is just how you write comics. You narrate what's difficult to explain with illustrations.

I'm just saying that Hank is saying he saw all reality become Living Tribunal when there's clearly planets and stars in the distance. Which is conflicting when we're going by what Hank saw.

And a further reason why I feel like more proof is needed before a retcon becomes the case. It's one statement. Is it hyperbole, is it just a throwaway line, is it some flowery language for LT appearing like that? Or is it legitimate?

It's just so... different from every other appearance and status of LT that it makes it questionable, especially with how prevalent hyperbole is in comics. It could be his last living appearance ever and he gets retconned to represent something previously below him.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I'm not sure why you're so pro retcon though.

Do you think it diminishes LT if he wasn't the multiverse or something because by all means this should be below his status, or power considering the whole "Megaverse" thing.

What I'm saying has no indication of power though. Only of the possibility of an established character becoming another.

It'd be like Eternity randomly becoming the balance between Chaos and Order.

It's not like Hickman retconned Eternity/Infinity into lesser abstracts or w/e just to wank LT. They [Eternity/Infinity] had already been killed by the Beyonders, which left their cosmological 'spots' vacant... LT simply filled their spots(for whatever reason) before he engaged the Beyonders. Not sure why this is such a big deal..?

Originally posted by Galan007
It's not really a retcon, though. That's why it doesn't bother me.

It's not like Hickman retconned Eternity/Infinity into lesser abstracts or w/e just to wank LT. They [Eternity/Infinity] had already been killed by the Beyonders, which left their cosmological 'spots' vacant... LT simply filled their spots(for whatever reason) before he engaged the Beyonders. Not sure why this is such a big deal..?

I have no issue with logical explanations being presented. This argument started because Beyondergod/Astner kept speaking as if a retcon was in effect. Which would be silly to just swallow a retcon based on so little evidence. "This character doesn't exist anymore in any capacity because LT was called a multiverse"

I ****ing hate retcons and any continuity error that happens is now a "full blown retcon". It's annoying. Nevermind the fact that I've seen "retcon" before in regards to that scene as well a couple times which built towards this.

Though there is flaws with why exactly LT would need to do this per your example, it's easier to stomach than "lol retcon I ain't got to think up shit. Cement solid dawg"

Though my feelings towards the "feat" are still the same.

On another note though but on the topic of implications. There is a heavy implication that there were more universes/Beyonders on display than 3.

IE in every universe there was 1 Beyonder killing Celestials. Considering there's more than 3 Beyonders, and there's more than 3 universes with Celestials in them. If we factor this in with "the same battle happening across all realities" and "a sliver fell to every reality" of LT it implies there was a Beyonder for every reality (or 3 judging by art) fighting LT.

If that's the case, it seems Deodata is the only one who wanted to draw that many of them with his tracing of robot toys.

srug

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
There is a heavy implication that there were more universes/Beyonders on display than 3.

IE in every universe there was 1 Beyonder killing Celestials. Considering there's more than 3 Beyonders, and there's more than 3 universes with Celestials in them. If we factor this in with "the same battle happening across all realities" and "a sliver fell to every reality" if LT it implies there was a Beyonder for every reality (or 3 judging by art) fighting LT.

But in the case of how many Beyonders fought the Living Tribunal you are arguing against the visuals based on speculation that in turn is based on narration.

How does this make sense to you?

Originally posted by Astner
So you dismiss the narration because you think the visuals contradicts it with the Living Tribunal becoming all-reality.

But in the case of how many Beyonders fought the Living Tribunal you are arguing against the visuals based on speculation that in turn is based on narration.

How does this make sense to you?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
And my issue has only been with people running to the retcon excuse which I've made abundantly clear.

I have no issue with logical explanations being presented. This argument started because Beyondergod/Astner kept speaking as if a retcon was in effect. Which would be silly to just swallow a retcon based on so little evidence. "This character doesn't exist anymore in any capacity because LT was called a multiverse"

I ****ing hate retcons and any continuity error that happens is now a "full blown retcon". It's annoying. Nevermind the fact that I've seen "retcon" before in regards to that scene as well a couple times which built towards this.

Though there is flaws with why exactly LT would need to do this per your example, it's easier to stomach than "lol retcon I ain't got to think up shit. Cement solid dawg"

Though my feelings towards the "feat" are still the same.

When the Ogre Brothers usurped Yahweh's position/power during Lucifer, for example, Yahweh certainly wasn't 'retconned' as a result.... The Brothers merely filled the spot he left open. Same thing applies here, imo.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
On another note though but on the topic of implications. There is a heavy implication that there were more universes/Beyonders on display than 3.

IE in every universe there was 1 Beyonder killing Celestials. Considering there's more than 3 Beyonders, and there's more than 3 universes with Celestials in them. If we factor this in with "the same battle happening across all realities" and "a sliver fell to every reality" of LT it implies there was a Beyonder for every reality (or 3 judging by art) fighting LT.

If that's the case, it seems Deodata is the only one who wanted to draw that many of them with his tracing of robot toys.

srug

http://i.imgur.com/jy3nxF9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QrKWZz0.jpg
"I could see the same battle taking place in multiple realities. In each one, a different Beyonder facing...And destroying...The Celestial Host."

Originally posted by Galan007
It's not a formal retcon, though. LT simply filled a position that was left vacant in the wake of Eternity/Infinity's death.

When the Ogre Brothers usurped Yahweh's position/power during Lucifer, for example, Yahweh certainly wasn't 'retconned' as a result.... The Brothers merely filled the spot he left open. Same thing applies here, imo.

It's the "lol retcon no explanation needed" mindset that bothers me. It's once you get into the plain retcon aspect that the statement of LT makes it questionable to be blindly accepted.

Like I said, so little for a revamp. But it's easier to accept the statement if we assume it was a temporary mantle. It's a case by case basis.

But I do still feel it's not necessarily "right" if you will. "The power of the multiverse" is what I interpret it as as it adds no special context that was left out and it largely still portrays the power on display. Might be schemantics but it's not adding a new power that is completely unexplained.

Originally posted by Galan007
Pym all but told us that there were basically an infinite number of Beyonders fighting an infinite number of Celestials...

http://i.imgur.com/jy3nxF9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QrKWZz0.jpg
"I could see the same battle taking place in multiple realities. In each one, a different Beyonder facing...And destroying...The Celestial Host."

It'll be interesting if this is ever looked back on.

Originally posted by Astner
So you dismiss the narration because you think the visuals contradicts it with the Living Tribunal becoming all-reality.

But in the case of how many Beyonders fought the Living Tribunal you are arguing against the visuals based on speculation that in turn is based on narration.

How does this make sense to you?

Are you still butthurt quan?

Is this your new thing to follow me around and disagree with me?

I didn't catch any specific mention of the One-Above-All, but the "Gods Above Gods" that exist "Outside the realms. Outside all realities," are apparently the Beyonders.

Originally posted by Astner
I didn't catch any specific mention of the One-Above-All, but the "Gods Above Gods" that exist "Outside the realms. Outside all realities," are apparently the Beyonders.

Curious how they tie that in though in any case. There was also some good Beyonders details in that Black Avengers spin off series. I believe it also stated that they vary in power level too.

It might well be the case that they appear different to different beings.

I haven't mentioned a retcon......seriously? He is a multiverse with Megaverse power lol