Well lets not forget that Sidious beat Maul with TK. Just because Maul can survive getting the crap beat out of him doesn't mean getting slammed into walls isn't going to damage him and let Vader beat him. Not to mention that Vader very much can hit him with some very heavy and large objects. In TFU2 he threw an entire platform at Starkiller, for example.
Either it's a low showing, because that level of impact wouldn't phase Maul in other sources (and we all know how TCW likes to defile consistency), or Sidious was able to hurl Maul harder than someone like Vader ever could.
I agree Vader might be able to damage Maul, but then we're talking about a guy who gets shot in the arm point blank by a blaster, and instead of simply having his arm blown off, decides to amplify his physical speed beyond what he was running with in the first place and speedblitz another Force sensitive. Dark Rage, gravity manipulation, these are the keys to countering Vader's TK. He just isn't beating Maul with it. And it's not like Maul couldn't dodge these telekinetic projectiles anyway, he isn't slow.
Maul's not dodging if Vader stuns him by say, throwing him into a wall first. Even Obi-Wan has tied up Maul for a decent amount of time with TK. It's hardly out of the picture.
I just think you're really underestimating what having the TK advantage can do. Especially with TK on Vaders level. The guy shattered a material imperial scientists thought to be unbreakable, its not as if he's limited to some shoves.
1. sure we can agree to disagree on that point for the moment.
2. I told you it was a metaphor trying to prove a point. A glass canon is inferior to a canon that can shoot the same damage but can take three times the damage. I wasn't suggesting that Maul is going to get beaten by a metal pole.
3. Yea savage was amped but Ventress also got her TK fingers around Kenobis throat once. No matter how you spin it, it happened.
4. I looked into it. Mauls Force scream was when he was enraged, your quote even confirms it, and it is the only instance of it happening.
5. Maul has always done his best feats when his brother is in danger. Savage looses an arm, and Maul blast Kenobi. Savage is wounded and in danger, he pulls down a shuttle, Savage dies to sidious and Maul manages to stalemate his master for a short time. *shrugs* just making an observation.
6. ah my bad
7. Vader has done a lot better
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11115/111155790/3914942-7695568615-33344.jpg
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http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/karasakal_teach/media/MaulForceWave1_zpsb717be8e.jpg.html
8. Tutaminus still speaks to a greater knowledge of the Force
As for saber throw I am guessing you don't understand how deadly that ability is, its a spinning lightsaber being guided by the Force. "Throwing their weapon away?" dude you know that they call it right back to their hands. Throwing a lightsaber isn't a one off, And Vader has taken out groups of enemies with one throw. Its a great ability
Originally posted by Marco1907
Star Wars Comic Magazine 02 (2014)http://imageshack.com/a/img908/553/jrIkwi.jpg
[B]''It's a close call, and these two Sith are well-matched in terms of fighting skills.''
Nuff said. [/B]
Originally posted by ILS3. Savage has never choked or ragdolled Kenobi in the Force. He Force pushed him whilst highly enraged, beyond any level of range he's ever exhibited. The same goes with Ventress and her choking of Kenobi and Anakin, although her instance is an inconsistency more than anything, because she has no business Force choking EU Anakin.
Savage has ragdolled Anakin and Kenobi. Yes the most notable time was when Opress was Rage enhanced after fighting Dooku.
But there was also once on Toydaria when he shoved Anakin and Obi-Wan off his back.
Savage like Maul has also chucked a starship with Tk. He ragdolled Adi Gallia. He smashed out of a Mandalorian prison.
His Tk is easily on par with Maul's in terms of raw power. I actually think he had greater raw tk power than Maul, but that's debateable.
Maul however has far far greater skill and precision in using his Tk. Whilst Opress with his lack of training just let's it out in Waves.
But that's Opress's whole power. His beastly force wave backed by his tremendous physical strength. And it is based solely on those 2 things he beats down his opponents, given he lacks any proper skill and training.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Savage has ragdolled Anakin and Kenobi. Yes the most notable time was when Opress was Rage enhanced after fighting Dooku.But there was also once on Toydaria when he shoved Anakin and Obi-Wan off his back.
Savage like Maul has also chucked a starship with Tk. He ragdolled Adi Gallia. He smashed out of a Mandalorian prison.
His Tk is easily on par with Maul's in terms of raw power. I actually think he had greater raw tk power than Maul, but that's debateable.
Maul however has far far greater skill and precision in using his Tk. Whilst Opress with his lack of training just let's it out in Waves.
But that's Opress's whole power. His beastly force wave backed by his tremendous physical strength. And it is based solely on those 2 things he beats down his opponents, given he lacks any proper skill and training.
2. Savage pushed a comparatively small ship towards a cliff and it did a good deal of the falling and motion itself. Maul pulled a much larger shuttle a further distance, and he pulled it straight off the cliff, not just towards it's edge. He didn't ragdoll Adi Gallia - he pushed her. Breaking the Beskar prison glass is a good feat which makes him comparable to Maul.
3.I actually see them as even in power but Maul has far greater precision. In fact Maul actually appears to be more powerful, given the effort Savage put into pushing a small ship in comparison to the mid-effort Maul put into pulling a much larger shuttle. Savage required tremendous effort/rage on his part just to Force push a small company of droids whereas Maul replicated the same feat in SoD with little effort whatsoever. And even in their combined TK feat against a collective of soldiers, Savage was audibly showing effort on his part by grunting, implying the task was harder for him than Maul.
4. Savage doesn't lack skill or training, and he doesn't wholly rely on power and strength. Shadow Conspiracy noted him as having astonishing skill, and in Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, it's noted that only a truly masterful combatant can wield a Saberstaff, because you need to be in absolute perfect attunement with the weapon as not to cut yourself in half. He was giving Ventress a good fight in H2H before even becoming Force sensitive, and he didn't rely on power against Plo Koon when he was kicking him in the face and dodging his blows whilst contending multiple clone troopers shooting at him. People just look at a big fighter and instantly assume he isn't fast or skilled because for some reason clinging onto pre-conceived notions is the norm in SW debates.
Originally posted by ILS
1. He didn't ragdoll them. Ragdolling someone is taking complete control over them, dominating them through their Force shields. Savage has only ever done this to a non-Force sensitive. He Force pushed Kenobi and Anakin whilst benefiting from an example of Dark Rage he has never again replicated. He threw them off his back through physical power, not telekinesis, and that still isn't ragdolling.
1.
I'm not sure how Ragdolling doesn't apply to what Savage did to Kenobi/Skywalker. Unless your definition of ragdolling is a complete defeat.
Urm no, I'm pretty sure he used Tk to shove them off his back, because they went flying. Before that the 2 of them were physically restraining him. Don't forget Skywalker has a Cyborg arm, and has tremendous physical strength himself.
Originally posted by ILS
2. Savage pushed a comparatively small ship towards a cliff and it did a good deal of the falling and motion itself. Maul pulled a much larger shuttle a further distance, and he pulled it straight off the cliff, not just towards it's edge. He didn't ragdoll Adi Gallia - he pushed her. Breaking the Beskar prison glass is a good feat which makes him comparable to Maul.
2.
The ship is pretty comparable in size to the one Maul pulled. It's not as big in the inside, but has huge wings on it.
Again we seem to be playing semantics with this "Ragdolling" word.
He did send her flying and overpower her with that force push right? How's it different to what Maul did to Kenobi later? Except that one caused a cave in, because they were in a cave.
Originally posted by ILS
3.I actually see them as even in power but Maul has far greater precision. In fact Maul actually appears to be more powerful, given the effort Savage put into pushing a small ship in comparison to the mid-effort Maul put into pulling a much larger shuttle. Savage required tremendous effort/rage on his part just to Force push a small company of droids whereas Maul replicated the same feat in SoD with little effort whatsoever. And even in their combined TK feat against a collective of soldiers, Savage was audibly showing effort on his part by grunting, implying the task was harder for him than Maul.
3.
Again the ships are not as different in size as your making out. I honestly put them on par in terms of raw power, but obviously Rage enhanced Savage has displayed the most Raw Tk Power.
Agree that Maul has far greater skill and precision with his Tk.
Originally posted by ILS
4. Savage doesn't lack skill or training, and he doesn't wholly rely on power and strength. Shadow Conspiracy noted him as having astonishing skill, and in Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, it's noted that only a truly masterful combatant can wield a Saberstaff, because you need to be in absolute perfect attunement with the weapon as not to cut yourself in half. He was giving Ventress a good fight in H2H before even becoming Force sensitive, and he didn't rely on power against Plo Koon when he was kicking him in the face and dodging his blows whilst contending multiple clone troopers shooting at him. People just look at a big fighter and instantly assume he isn't fast or skilled because for some reason clinging onto pre-conceived notions is the norm in SW debates.
4.
He has combat training and a lot of natural skill being chosen as the best from a warrior race.
But he has very little training and skill in using the Force.
Ragdolling is what Sidious did to Maul and Savage, or what Dooku did to Kenobi during RotS. When you literally ragdoll them. Pushing or hurling someone isn't ragdolling, it's momentarily breaking their Force shield, not completely dominating them. I'm not arguing semantics, this is just what these words mean, and there's a big difference between "ragdolling" and pushing.
There's nothing in that scene to suggest he did it with TK, at all. He threw them with his physical strength, and either way it still couldn't be classed as a "ragdoll" even if it was TK, which is wasn't.
There's a difference between the one-man ship Savage pushed and the shuttle, I repeat, shuttle, that Maul pulled. Just look at both of them, it's pretty easy to see that one is much bigger than the other.
Yes, Savage pushed Gallia, but he didn't ragdoll her. There was a portion of the fight just prior to Savage losing his arm where Maul literally picked Kenobi up like a ragdoll then threw him at the wall. This is ragdolling someone. He also choked Kenobi in the Sith Hunters comic.
You haven't really countered my points on rage levels/effort exertion. As far as I'm concerned Maul is both more powerful and more skilled than his brother. There are plenty of parallels I can draw between their feats that suggest Maul is more powerful.
Agreed on 4.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well lets not forget that Sidious beat Maul with TK. Just because Maul can survive getting the crap beat out of him doesn't mean getting slammed into walls isn't going to damage him and let Vader beat him. Not to mention that Vader very much can hit him with some very heavy and large objects. In TFU2 he threw an entire platform at Starkiller, for example.
Sidious's TK one tier ahead of Vader. I hope you will not argue that Vader can match with Sidious in that. His potential was only being %80 of Sidious, and %20 gap is really a something.
Anyway, why are we always talking about Vader's TK advantage ? How about Maul's speed advantage ?
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Vader lacks agility and finds difficulty with agile and acrobatic opponents. It's not the same as actual speed, as in, the speed at which you move your blade, react to strikes and process information. Maul's agility could be problematic for Vader in a dueling scenario, but not speed. They're relatively equal there.
Nah, agility should be added to speed department imo. For example ; Sidious shouldn't be able to speedblitz Tiin and Kolar without his agility. (turned like tornado) Or Yoda's speed also depends on his acrobatic movements, means also speed.
That's why Kai Hudorra claimed that Vader being slow, he lacks too much agility with that heavy armor and breathing apparatus.
Originally posted by carthage
I don't believe Vader would slaugher Maul, but he would take a majority due to superior Strength, somewhat superior TK, and his durability will factor in as it did when it played an important role in his Pyrrhic victory over TPM Maul.Vader with high difficulty
That's acceptable, I never denied Vader's TK and armor advantage. But even if Vader is superior at strength, that hardly matters since it would be very minimal difference and also Maul has H2H combat mastery to compensate it.
I am still going with Maul because of a specific reason I've said before ; speed / agility.
I doubt he's faster, more agile yeah. But for combat speed Vader appearing to teleport and moving fast enough to appear to materialize out of thin air impresses me more than some of Maul's feats. Granted, Maul moving faster than Mace (who is Vader's near clone in speed) when Mace got taken out by that grenade is impressive in its own right.
