Darth Maul vs. Darth Vader

Originally posted by WollfMyth
Maul is faster and almost as skilled, but Vader is far more powerful. He takes this, and it ain't close. Maul's doppleganger with an amp would be a close fight for Pre-ANH Vader, sure. RoTJ prime Vader VS TCW prime Maul, Vader takes it handily.

Vader isn't "far more powerful" to such a degree that it would allow him to dominate the fight and you're absolutely kidding yourself if you think that's the case.

Maul's doppleganger wasn't amped because there is nothing to confirm this. You could only propose that being on a Dark Side nexus was amping him, but then that would also amp Vader so it cancels out.

Between Maul's own power, durability and capacity to handle hard landings extremely well he can circumvent Vader's power advantage for the most part. Vader can't really circumvent Maul's advantage in agility - that's just something that will always linger. I think it could be a split or a slim majority to Vader, but saying he stomps is just ridiculous.

Reacting to RotS Sidious in a one-on-one duel is more impressive than anything Vader has done in the speed department before imho.

Originally posted by WollfMyth
. Maul's doppleganger with an amp would be a close fight for Pre-ANH Vader,

😆 😆 😆 You know ; Real One / The Original > Clones & Doppelgangers right ?

And no, TPM Maul's clone was not amped, if you have a source about that ''amp'' show me, otherwise you are spreading misinformation about Maul just because wanking Vader.

Originally posted by ILS
No - Maul is as skilled. And physically speaking he isn't faster than Vader, but far more agile, which is a form of speed but has no bearing on combat speed or reactions.

Vader isn't "far more powerful" to such a degree that it would allow him to dominate the fight and you're absolutely kidding yourself if you think that's the case.

Maul's doppleganger wasn't amped because there is nothing to confirm this. You could only propose that being on a Dark Side nexus was amping him, but then that would also amp Vader so it cancels out.

Between Maul's own power, durability and capacity to handle hard landings extremely well he can circumvent Vader's power advantage for the most part. Vader can't really circumvent Maul's advantage in agility - that's just something that will always linger. I think it could be a split or a slim majority to Vader, but saying he stomps is just ridiculous.

Granted the difference isn't huge, but only marginal, I don't think Maul is as skilled as Vader, as the latter was already comparable shortly before ANH. He more or less contended with Maul in Resurrection, and the so called Doppleganger is actually a resurrected Maul as confirmed by at least one source.

ROTJ Vader is vastly more skillful than ANH Vader as confirmed by sources stating that he improved significantly in the three following years. In addition, he advanced further after ESB as shown in the SOE novel in which he easily defeated a droid trained with the skills of a hundred swordmaster, so he should be marginally more skilled.

As for the Force, Vader has briefly chocked Galen Marek, who to my knowledge should be considerably more powerful than Maul:

"You can teach me nothing," Darth Vader's leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight. He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.

-- The Force Unleashed

If he can do this to Marek it is obvious and logical that he can do the same for more time to, if not outright ragdoll, anyone well below that power level. Yes, Galen hurled Vader, but there is also the fact that the latter was not in his prime, and the showing is still impressive anyway. Regardless, he doesn't even actually need to ragdoll Maul, he just needs to chocke him for a decent time and then impale him with his lightsaber like he did against Sha Koon, and that would likely be enough to win.

In addition, Vader's feats many years before TFU, like bringing down a massive mining vehicle with ease whereas Maul in his prime required moderate to high effort to pull a considerably smaller ship out of a cliff, are already considerably more impressive than anything Maul has ever done. That was 20+ years before ROTJ, and I think it would be preposterous to assume that Vader would only grow in power by a moderate degree over two decades when Maul, who doesn't have more potential than him, became considerably more powerful in less time and without training.

In spite of all this, Vader would win in a close fight, because he probably won't try to ragdoll Maul, and so the fight would be just a saber duel, which would be hard for both.

Granted the difference isn't huge, but only marginal, I don't think Maul is as skilled as Vader, as the latter was already comparable shortly before ANH. He more or less contended with Maul in Resurrection, and the so called Doppleganger is actually a resurrected Maul as confirmed by at least one source.

If Vader improved even significantly since then that would put him on par with that version of Maul, not ahead, unless there are feats to supplement such a statement.

ROTJ Vader is vastly more skillful than ANH Vader as confirmed by sources stating that he improved significantly in the three following years. In addition, he advanced further after ESB as shown in the SOE novel in which he easily defeated a droid trained with the skills of a hundred swordmaster, so he should be marginally more skilled.

Wouldn't he have had a physical advantage over that droid? Regardless Maul has done something pretty similar pre-TPM. He casually destroyed four droids which were programmed to kill, each programmed with the skills of a dozens martial arts masters each. They were all equipped with random lethal weaponry and unpredictable fighting strategies, and could throw blows that were nearly imperceptibly fast. Maul beat the first three so easily that he opted to put his saber down and manhandle the forth.

As for the Force, Vader has briefly chocked Galen Marek, who to my knowledge should be considerably more powerful than Maul:

If he can do this to Marek it is obvious and logical that he can do the same for more time to, if not outright ragdoll, anyone well below that power level. Yes, Galen hurled Vader, but there is also the fact that the latter was not in his prime, and the showing is still impressive anyway.

Regardless, he doesn't even actually need to ragdoll Maul, he just needs to chocke him for a decent time and then impale him with his lightsaber like he did against Sha Koon, and that would likely be enough to win.

In addition, Vader's feats many years before TFU, like bringing down a massive mining vehicle with ease whereas Maul in his prime required moderate to high effort to pull a considerably smaller ship out of a cliff, are already considerably more impressive than anything Maul has ever done. That was 20+ years before ROTJ, and I think it would be preposterous to assume that Vader would only grow in power by a moderate degree over two decades when Maul, who doesn't have more potential than him, became considerably more powerful in less time and without training.

Btw, Nova said you can go second instead of him in our CaV, to speed things up. I brought up a lot of points about Vader you'll probably want to counter.

In spite of all this, Vader would win in a close fight, because he probably won't try to ragdoll Maul, and so the fight would be just a saber duel, which would be hard for both.

I think TFU feats are highly overhyped just like CW micro-series feats. (Good think that is non-canon now) Even Shaak Ti was killing Galen with a force blast in TFU or even someone like Kota was using the force to blast Galen Marek, I can't imagine what TCW Darth Maul would do (or even Savage Opress) in that overhyped series.

Originally posted by ILS
I would be leaning towards less. Maul was essentially controlling that entire fight and Vader had no answer for his agility. In fact Maul didn't even look too strained, and he had Vader dead to rights but obviously couldn't kill him, so they bring in the "arrogant" card.

I don't think agility was the issue. Maul was simply more skilled and a much better martial artist, and he mainly landed kicks on Vader. Before slashing him, they were relatively even for quite a long time, which also surprised those three darksiders.

As for Maul's arrogance, I don't think that was why he lost, and he wasn't distracted. Vader pulled his lightsaber faster than Maul could strike him down, but regardless, the point was that ANH Vader is comparable. Wether he lost or not is another matter.

If Vader improved even significantly since then that would put him on par with that version of Maul, not ahead, unless there are feats to supplement such a statement.

I don't think so. It's not like Maul is a full tier ahead of ANH Vader, he should be half a tier above him but nothing more than that, otherwise their fight wouldn't have been so long, not to mention that TPM Maul=TCW Maul in terms of skill.

"Vastly" seems like more your conjecture. I've heard of him significantly improving, but not vastly. And to be honest he would need a vast improvement considering he used to be a "shell of his former self", which is a pretty lowly place to be relative to this fight.

The quote from Fightsaber clearly labels Vader as "a far more formidable foe" in TESB compared to how he was in ANH. I'll post it anyways:

By the time of the Battle of Hoth, Darth Vader has consolidated his position within the Empire as the favored agent of the Emperor. Within the armoed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel.Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.

Since the quote strictly refers to lightsaber duelling, it is obvious that the improvement was huge, unless yuo would suggest that it adresses combat efficiency only, but i doubt it since Vader is not Savage.

Logically, if Vader was in Maul's tier as of ANH, which I don't find preposterous, since he was recently stated to be superior to a dormidable duellist like Ben Kenobi, he wouldn't be just his equal by ROTJ, and a vast improvement+another improvement in one year would be enough to elevate him marginally above Maul. I personally regard ROTJ Vader as a bottom Tier 9 duellist, whereas I rank Maul as a 8.7/8.8, but that's just my assessment on the matter.

Wouldn't he have had a physical advantage over that droid? Regardless Maul has done something pretty similar pre-TPM. He casually destroyed four droids which were programmed to kill, each programmed with the skills of a dozens martial arts masters each. They were all equipped with random lethal weaponry and unpredictable fighting strategies, and could throw blows that were nearly imperceptibly fast. Maul beat the first three so easily that he opted to put his saber down and manhandle the forth.

I never argued that Vader's showing in SOE is overly impressive, I just used it to prove that he became more skilled after TESB.

What Force feats did Galen have at this point in time? It seemed like he was caught by surprise by Vader in this instance as well, and he fought off the telekinetic attack with his own.

Depending on Galen's feats at the time of this choking in comparison to Maul's, and there's also the matter of whether or not he was caught by surprise or not.

Galen was in his prime back then, and this happened shortly before his death. Off the top of my head I remember that he caught two flying Tie fighters, deflected Palpatine's Lightning (with maximum effort), altered the course of a falling SD, again with maximum effort, ragdolled Rahm Kota (who is arguably in Obi-Wan's class), blasted away many droids, etc. O don't remember to well actually, and I think I'll make a respect thread for him eventually.

Regardless, nothing indicates that Marek was distracted:

And the apprentice understood.

A better way to kill …

Not out of hatred. Whatever lay beneath that black mask, it wasn’t beauty or happiness. Only ugliness and pain would hide itself away for so long. Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader.

Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath.

“I don’t need to hate you in order to beat you,” he gasped. “That’s something I will teach you now.”

“You can teach me nothing,” Darth Vader’s leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice’s throat closed tight.

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.

For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.

“I don’t hate you,” the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. “I pity you.” With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. “You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn’t your idea. It was the Emperor’s, and it’s what he’s already done to you.” A strip of Darth Vader’s cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. “You are his creature just as I was yours—but you’ve never had the strength to rebel. That’s why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I’ll make sure you don’t, either.”

Kind of doubt Maul would just sit there and let that happen even if we go by your logic that Vader can outright choke Maul. Maul is highly proficient with saber throws and at throwing telekinetic missiles so he could distract Vader this way, or he could let loose a telekinetic blast of his own to offset Vader. If the situation was desperate enough he may even let out an involuntary Force Scream, which doesn't really bode well for Vader.

It's not that Vader can't do this in the middle of a duel, because that's what he did against Sha Koon. Vader is also proficient at throwing missiles, and he nearly killed Galen with a table on Corellia, though it's questionable wether the latter was caught off guard or not. Galen managed to get free of Vader's grip because he is close to him in power, and because he tends to abuse of Force attacks more than Maul in duels.

As for Force Screams, that may be Maul's undoing actually, since Vader's screams have caused a man to lose his hearing permanently, while simultaneously melting durasteel, making the sensors of a building go crazy and imploding droids. He also shook the foundations of a building just by hearing Padme's name. These feats were also performed decades before his prime. I recall however that Maul collapsed barracks as a teenager, so Force Scream probably wouldn't be a factor.

Could you direct me to where I can see this feat, or post it, or at least tell me what the vehicle is called so I can take a look? Maul doesn't yet have a prime to be honest. He's in his thirties by SoD as far as I can tell whereas Vader is in his sixties by RotJ, so Maul has room for improvement. But yeah, I'll need to take a look at this feat before giving my own assessment.

As you wish:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/3914998-9590045380-34161.jpg (
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/3914999-6685538087-38920.jpg

Don't just look at the wheel in the second scan, also notice the machine behing it, which is considerably bigger than Maul's ship. This was done with apparently little strain and decades before ROTJ, which only makes it more impressive.

If you're talking about Canon Maul, then yes, we haven't seen his true prime, since he isn't dead yet, but he is more likely to become a crime lord during the Dark Times (if he will ever go that far), so he might not train at all. I must admit that I'd like to see Maul in Rebels, though, since I liked how he was developed in TCW as a character.

Btw, Nova said you can go second instead of him in our CaV, to speed things up. I brought up a lot of points about Vader you'll probably want to counter.

I actually think Maul has a shot at winning a Saber duel. What would you say is Vader's best skill feat overall?

Jesus, the Cav. My apologies, I forgot it, but I'll answer as soon as possible, though from what I gathered so far, I would probably agree with your case on speed and strenght.

For Vader's saber feats I don't know which one is best. Too difficult to judge for me right now.

Kota's overall power is no where near at any Jedi council member, let alone Obi-Wan.

I don't think agility was the issue. Maul was simply more skilled and a much better martial artist, and he mainly landed kicks on Vader. Before slashing him, they were relatively even for quite a long time, which also surprised those three darksiders.

As for Maul's arrogance, I don't think that was why he lost, and he wasn't distracted. Vader pulled his lightsaber faster than Maul could strike him down, but regardless, the point was that ANH Vader is comparable. Wether he lost or not is another matter.

I don't think so. It's not like Maul is a full tier ahead of ANH Vader, he should be half a tier above him but nothing more than that, otherwise their fight wouldn't have been so long, not to mention that TPM Maul=TCW Maul in terms of skill.

Also, Maul's capacity to duel evenly with four Magnaguards simultaneously and then wreck three of them in quick succession could be the basis for an argument for Maul being faster than Vader, because I can't recall the latter pulling anything like this off. And Magnaguards aren't complete fodder either. I found an accolade recently which notes that they were able to kill nearly any opponent put up against them, and that if a Jedi were to get past a group of Magnaguards to confront Grievous, they would more often than not be too exhausted to put up a fight with the General.

The quote from Fightsaber clearly labels Vader as "a far more formidable foe" in TESB compared to how he was in ANH. I'll post it anyways:

Since the quote strictly refers to lightsaber duelling, it is obvious that the improvement was huge, unless yuo would suggest that it adresses combat efficiency only, but i doubt it since Vader is not Savage.

Logically, if Vader was in Maul's tier as of ANH, which I don't find preposterous, since he was recently stated to be superior to a dormidable duellist like Ben Kenobi, he wouldn't be just his equal by ROTJ, and a vast improvement+another improvement in one year would be enough to elevate him marginally above Maul. I personally regard ROTJ Vader as a bottom Tier 9 duellist, whereas I rank Maul as a 8.7/8.8, but that's just my assessment on the matter.

Galen was in his prime back then, and this happened shortly before his death. Off the top of my head I remember that he caught two flying Tie fighters, deflected Palpatine's Lightning (with maximum effort), altered the course of a falling SD, again with maximum effort, ragdolled Rahm Kota (who is arguably in Obi-Wan's class), blasted away many droids, etc. O don't remember to well actually, and I think I'll make a respect thread for him eventually.

Regardless, nothing indicates that Marek was distracted:

It's not that Vader can't do this in the middle of a duel, because that's what he did against Sha Koon. Vader is also proficient at throwing missiles, and he nearly killed Galen with a table on Corellia, though it's questionable wether the latter was caught off guard or not. Galen managed to get free of Vader's grip because he is close to him in power, and because he tends to abuse of Force attacks more than Maul in duels.

I wasn't questioning Vader's skill in launching projectiles, I was just saying that it's a viable option for Maul to get out of a choke since he is so good at it.

Galen does abuse the Force more than Maul, but if Maul needed to get out of a choke I doubt he would restrain his TK.

As for Force Screams, that may be Maul's undoing actually, since Vader's screams have caused a man to lose his hearing permanently, while simultaneously melting durasteel, making the sensors of a building go crazy and imploding droids. He also shook the foundations of a building just by hearing Padme's name. These feats were also performed decades before his prime. I recall however that Maul collapsed barracks as a teenager, so Force Scream probably wouldn't be a factor.

Don't just look at the wheel in the second scan, also notice the machine behing it, which is considerably bigger than Maul's ship. This was done with apparently little strain and decades before ROTJ, which only makes it more impressive.

If you're talking about Canon Maul, then yes, we haven't seen his true prime, since he isn't dead yet, but he is more likely to become a crime lord during the Dark Times (if he will ever go that far), so he might not train at all. I must admit that I'd like to see Maul in Rebels, though, since I liked how he was developed in TCW as a character.

Having said that he does appear to increase in power as time passes, and after traumatic and hate-inspiring events in his life. He even had a small surge in strength after fighting a Wampa. So with a bit of time to stew over his defeats in TCW, his replacement, Savage and Talzin's death and his military defeat, he may delve deeper into his anger and become more powerful like he did after his bisection. But at the same time I want him to go back to his roots a bit.. he can be more experienced, cold and calculated, but I also want him to remain silent and ferocious rather than verbally egotistical like every other Sith.

Jesus, the Cav. My apologies, I forgot it, but I'll answer as soon as possible, though from what I gathered so far, I would probably agree with your case on speed and strenght.

For Vader's saber feats I don't know which one is best. Too difficult to judge for me right now.

Fair enough man.

Originally posted by ILS
snip

Speed was never a factor during that fight, considering how Vader demonstrated the ability to keep up with Maul.

And he did push Maul back at least once, so no, it wasn't a comfortable victory:

http://s21.photobucket.com/user/Frost327/media/Pictures/Vader%20vs%20Maul/SWT_09_01_Resurrection_026.jpg.html

Here Vader parries one of Maul's attacks in mid-air:

http://www.starwars.siligon.com/image/darth%20maul/maul09.jpg

Also this:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4203356-swt_09_01_resurrection_032.jpg
http://s21.photobucket.com/user/Frost327/media/Pictures/Vader%20vs%20Maul/SWT_09_01_Resurrection_033.jpg.html

Maul: "Follow me if you can"

And Vader manages to keep up with his speed.

Also appearing in three places at once was replicated by Vader in another comic, not to mention that just kicking and punching someone also proves nothing, seeing how Obi-Wan is on Vader' speed level (maybe even marginally below if we include the latter's speed showings against Ferus Olin) and yet he managed to kick TCW Maul multiple times.

Vader cut Maul's saberstaff because he had blocked Maul's leg anyway:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4203376-swt_09_01_resurrection_037.jpg

Originally posted by ILS
I agree, but I question if Vader really improved by more than half a tier between ANH and ROTJ, based on feats of skill anyway. Plus Maul does appear to be more physically capable upon returning during TCW due to the statement by Jason Fry, so that would help him in keeping up with Vader's own improvement in skill.

Also, Maul's capacity to duel evenly with four Magnaguards simultaneously and then wreck three of them in quick succession could be the basis for an argument for Maul being faster than Vader, because I can't recall the latter pulling anything like this off. And Magnaguards aren't complete fodder either. I found an accolade recently which notes that they were able to kill nearly any opponent put up against them, and that if a Jedi were to get past a group of Magnaguards to confront Grievous, they would more often than not be too exhausted to put up a fight with the General.

If you want Vader's skill feats, he dueled evenly with Luke, who by ROTJ was already labelled as an incredibly skilled duellist. Aside from that, speedblitzing Magnaguards (which is questionable, because we don't know how much of it was skill rather than speed) is not more impressive than Vader blitzing a Jedi Knight or dodging a Jedi Master's attack while severely outnumbered. And this happened before being fully accustomed to his suit, which would have further hindered his movements, as he only adapted to it by the end of Dark Lord.

Maul may be more physically capable but he was never stated to be more skilled.

Originally posted by ILS
Maul is also a superior duelist to Ben Kenobi, though, and I'm going to need to see some substantial skill feats from Vader to suggest he's surpassed Maul. Bare in mind that not every source is consistent with each other. Maul and Vader's ANH duel is a decent basis, but that accompanied by Vader's skill improvement statements can't be the be all and end all IMO. In terms of feats I've always seen them as relatively equal by Vader's peak, although I'm no expert on Vader so I can't give the best assessment.

Of course Maul is better than old Ben, I was just stating that being better than one who was labelled as a formidable Soresu master would be enough to put Vader in Maul's tier.

Vader had a vast improvement in three years+another improvement after TESB. That certainly wouldn't make him improve by just hald a tier, which is not a huge difference. I personally would put him on Dooku's level, but it's still a close fight anyway.

Originally posted by ILS
Ah, well this is actually a pretty difficult argument to refute now. Vader was far away from his prime at this point, and Galen is considerably more powerful than Maul.. so add on the twenty year time for improvement and a less powerful opponent in Maul and Vader should logically find more success. I think the way I stand on their power disparity now is that it's akin to the one between Savage Opress and Obi-Wan - Savage can blast him around from time to time and logically can Force Choke him (although he lacks the precision to do so, but Vader doesn't obviously), but I wouldn't quite say he could ragdoll Maul, because Vader hasn't ragdolled anyone as powerful as Maul before, especially when Maul really gets going with his anger. Still, I'll still be asserting my usual points that Maul's knowledge of Teras Kasi and in extreme cases, gravity manipulation, in conjunction with his blunt force durability, will allow him to stave off Vader's TK when it comes into play, although it is a substantial advantage.

Vader was just a five or six years before his prime actually. If he can even briefly chocke Marek with apparently little effort, it's obvious that he would be able to do much worse to anyone considerably below Galen, especially as of ROTJ.

Even Vader can be very dangerous and unnaturally powerful when he is enraged, especially when someone talks about Padme. Gravity manipulation has never been used in a fight by Maul, and I recall that Vader has also shown that, not to mention that if Maul attempted to blast him away, Vader could use immovability (which he has used to prevent the vacuum of space from sucking him out of a ship).

And you forgot TP, which he has displayed against Luke. The latter has feats like probing 40 or 50 minds at once, controlling an Imperial officer from the other side of a facility and creating illusion, all of which was done shortly after ROTJ. In spite of this, Vader probed his mind with little effort, which indicates that he could have mindraped him, and Luke is a better telepath than Maul.

Originally posted by ILS
I agree that Vader will be able to clinch Maul's throat, I just question if it'll be able to lead him to victory. Maul's usage of telekinetic waves is sufficient to collapse a cave ceiling in, blow dozens of soldiers/droids away, and those weren't concentrated blasts but rather open waves. If he directed enough focused telekinesis at Vader with enough effort I believe he could break Vader's hold over him as Galen did.

He will need much more effort to do that, if that's possible for him at all, and in that time he would spend gathering his energies, he would already be dead by Vader's blade.

Originally posted by ILS
I wasn't questioning Vader's skill in launching projectiles, I was just saying that it's a viable option for Maul to get out of a choke since he is so good at it.

Galen does abuse the Force more than Maul, but if Maul needed to get out of a choke I doubt he would restrain his TK.

Maul was going to collapse a barracks with a Force Scream when he was just fifteen, but he restrained himself (which I'm guessing is why the short story this happened in is called Restraint, lol). It's definitely worth noting that Maul was seeing a steady increase in power at this point, which allows him seven years to improve by TPM, and then there's his surge in power during TCW. I still rank Maul as below Vader in actualized power by a couple of tiers, but in terms of raw, unrestrained power and potential Maul based on that showing seems to be able to get results that approach Vader's own.

Vader also likely considerably improved in power, and he had a few years more to become more powerful, not to mention that he performed those scream feats early in his career as a Sith, and his potential should exceed Maul's anyways.

Originally posted by ILS
I wouldn't say that it's considerably larger than the shuttle Maul pulled. It's bigger to be certain but it doesn't exactly dwarf a shuttle in size. And Maul was injured while he performed his feat and was running away from torrent of blaster fire, so he wouldn't have been able to exercise as much effort as he normally would have. And it's not certain how much effort Vader did put in (damn mask). He only used one arm with his feat, but then so did Maul, and Vader was in perfect health for his feat. I'd say they're remotely comparable with an obvious but not ridiculous edge for Vader.

That machine is certainly considerably bigger than Maul's shuttle. Again, look at the first scan I posted for scale perspective. Maul being moderately injured shouldn't affect his feat considering how durable he is, and Vader was also in the middle of a fight when he brought down that machine. Maul had his brother with him and he was only facing a dozen or so pirates anyway. In addition, nothing indicates that Vader required more than moderate effort. And if we want to go by the "injured" route, Vader collapsed a cathedral while gravely wounded, decades before ROTJ, and while in the underlevels of the building.

Nargorth is slaughtering the debate.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nargorth is slaughtering the debate.

Nargaroth-

1. Speed was a factor in the fight when Maul appeared in three places at once while cutting cables, dropping the catwalk beneath Vader's feet faster than he could do anything to prevent it. Vader kept up with Maul, that much I never denied, but that instance shows that there may have been some disparity in speed at this point. Maul momentarily going on the backfoot in one panel isn't indicative of anything, and Vader resorting to using blasters against Maul suggests he wasn't finding the success he was looking for with his saber. Regardless, I like I said before, I'd rather compare their skill showings then bench their saber abilities solely off of this fight in comparison to Vader's later improvement, because one fight doesn't define two characters in their entirety.

2. Luke being labelled as an "incredible duelist" honestly doesn't mean much to me at all. Luke dueling with Vader is a more a feat for Luke than Vader, because Vader is the one out of the pair who actually has a lot skill feats at this point in time.

3. How can you question whether or not Maul blitzing four Magnaguards is due to speed or skill, and then go on to say "Vader blitzed a Jedi" when I can use the exact same argument as you? Regardless, unless this Jedi Knight Vader blitzed has any showings or accolades I fail to see how this a more impressive showing of speed than rapidly wiping out three Magnaguards faster than any one of them can prevent. A single Magnaguard can take out nearly any opponent as per the Essential Guide to Droids, and there is a source somewhere (it may be the Complete Encyclopedia), which notes that a single Magnaguard is capable of killing a Jedi Knight. Dodging a Jedi Master's attacks really doesn't mean much to me. Unless this Jedi is impressive in any way worth noting? I mean off the top of my head Maul was comfortably evading the attacks of the Jedi Judd, who was fast enough to trip Savage Opress, who himself can move imperceptibly fast, move in the blink of an eye, speedblitz a Force sensitive and non-Force sensitives, and deflect blaster fire coming from all directions for a short period of time.

I didn't say he was more skilled, I said that his increase in physicals is a good way of balancing Vader's skill increase. And I'm still questioning if Vader is actually more skilled than Maul on the whole.

4. These statements of Vader's skill increase are worth noting but at the same time, unquantifiable. We know that he was inferior to Maul by some margin around the time of ANH, and after improving significantly I would say he'd be about on par with Maul to be safe, which has always been my assessment. But I personally don't see Vader's skill feats as more impressive than Maul's, which is something I'm willing to debate if you want.

5. Vader didn't choke Marek with little effort. He couldn't even hold the choke over him for more than a brief moment. I already conceded that Maul wouldn't be able to put up as much of a fight as Marek telekinetically, but I have provided several means of Maul getting out of a choke, which you failed to counter, such as a Saber throw, throwing large telekinetic missiles (he could move large boulders without the need for gesture years prior to TPM, for reference), or letting loose a focused telekinetic blast of his own to offset Vader.

How can you use "he hasn't ever used gravity manipulation in a fight" as an argument when the same could be said for Vader with immovability? Maul did use gravity manipulation right at the end of a fight, and you don't need to be out of a fight to use the ability - you just need to be falling, which I presume Maul would be doing if Vader hurled him. Combine this with Maul's ability to tank a full on kick from Grievous, fly through the air and land perfectly, or being able to shrug off back-breaking falls, and it's clear to see that Vader wouldn't take Maul out of the fight with telekinesis.

I question if Luke is a better offensive and defensive telepath than Maul. Maul has casually made a bar full of people lose interest in him, has killed a telepath with his own telepathic defences, clouded Obi-Wan's mind telepathically mid-duel, has seen through illusions cast by Mother Talzin ect. I highly doubt Vader would be able to mind rape Maul, much less during a duel.

6. Maul doesn't need time to gather his energies for a Force Wave, at least not a substantial amount of time, and certainly not as much time as it takes for Vader to get his blade into Maul's torso. And he could use a much easier method of launching telekinetic missiles at Vader to distract or disorientate him.

7. Okay. I mean, I don't think my assessment was off that Maul is approaching Vader in raw, potential power at this point in time, opposed to things like actualized telekinetic ability. And Force Scream may not come into this anyway, it just seems like the type of last ditch effort Maul would bring out to get out of a Force choke. And I don't think it'd be logical for Vader to respond with his own anyway, since it's an involuntary power.

8. Of course Maul being injured (missing a limb), being shot at by dozens of shooters and trying to run at the same time as pulling the shuttle down would have hindered him. His durability has nothing to do with it when he's being distracted and has already sustained an injury at the time of the feat. And like I said, from my view, the vehicle is certainly bigger than Maul's shuttle, but it doesn't dwarf it in size by any means, and Maul's feat was performed under much worse circumstances than Vader's. Not that this matters anymore, though, because we seem to be on the same page in regards to how Maul would react to Vader's TK now.

Maul blitzing four magnaguards simultaneously is a remarkable speed feat. To me, it's just as impressive as cutting down featless or no-name jedi, since magnaguards were designed for dueling jedi.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Maul blitzing four magnaguards simultaneously is a remarkable speed feat. To me, it's just as impressive as cutting down featless or no-name jedi, since magnaguards were designed for dueling jedi.

Originally posted by ILS
Except telekinesis doesn't really mean much to someone who tanks 100 foot falls without any damage...

Originally posted by NemeBro
That's not even a very good durability feat. 😬

I believe Maul's insane durability and pain tolerance might come handy against force choke attacks of Vader as well. (If he can though, I doubt that Vader can ragdoll someone at Maul's level)

Bruu Jun-Fan, (who has unparalleled skills in martial arts in the galaxy) was choking Maul, and still, Maul managed to give a reaction to him while he was being under the choke of Bruu Jun-Fan. (Kicked him for death)

In any force choke case from Vader (if he can do that), I believe Maul could counter it with a saber throw, or any kind of force push to break his concentration imo.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Maul blitzing four magnaguards simultaneously is a remarkable speed feat. To me, it's just as impressive as cutting down featless or no-name jedi, since magnaguards were designed for dueling jedi.

👆

Especially while prime Vader's speed (Anakin) never demonstrated such a performance against the same Magnaguards.

YouTube video

Marco actually brought up a good point on the Jun-Fan thing 😛

@ILS

1). And Vader summoned his lightsaber and impaled Maul before the latter could strike him down, and Maul was charging at him at this point. Resorting to using blasters is more like a mockery toward Maul than anything else, not to mention that their speed showings should be equal. I'll adress feats later.

2). Fair enough.

3). Uhm, I used a double standard. My apologies. That, however, still doesn't change the fact that Vader was not accustomed to his suit, since he did this early in his career as a Sith. Maul on the other hand was in his prime. Besides, I never denied that Magnaguards possess Jedi speed and skill, since their reflexes were described as near-relativistic, but they should't be faster than your average Jedi, so wether that knight Vader blitzed was impressive or not is a moot point, since Magnaguards are not that special as well. For that matter, Vader was easily dodging Ferus Olin's attacks while the latter was enraged, and he also moved faster than he could react, not to mention that Olin regarded Vader as faster than Obi-Wan. Vader also outclassed Aurra Sing, who was fast enough to keep up with pre-TPM Obi-Wan and Qui Gon, and kick them multiple times.

4). Let's compare their respective feats then.

Maul (TCW/TPM)=

1. killed Anoon Bondara, one of the best Jedi fighters at that time;
2. defeated Bondara's padawan while the latter was amped;
3. fought both Qui Gon, one of the greatest Jedi duellists in history, and Obi-Wan, who gave his own master a challenge, at the same time and killed the former;
4. fought evenly with TCW Obi-Wan;
5. fought evenly with Ventress;
6. duelled Jun Fan and Ko Solok together, and killed them;
7. stomped Savage.

Vader=

1. killed a group of 4 Jedi while still not used to his suit, and decades before his prime;
2. killed two Knights who were using radically different forms in an attempt to umblanace him, all the while casually toying with them, and again decades before his prime;
3. defeated Celeste Morne, who was skilled enough to hold her own against Darth Krayt (you know, the guy who slaughtered four Imperial Knights, who are essentially like fully trained Jedi). Again, this happened decades before ROTJ;
4. defeated the Dark Woman, though she is essentially featless;
5. dueled evenly, and nearly defeated Starkiller while holding back before ANH;
6. contended with/held his own against Maul;
7. as of ANH, he dueled evenly with a still formidable Soresu master like Ben Kenob, and was stated to be better than him;
8. dueled evenly with Luke.

Honestly, Vader's feats impressed me a tad bit more, so even going by that route, I would still put him above Maul.

5). You said that Maul could counter Vader's chocke by throwing objects at him without gesturing. However, Vader is not only able to do the same, but he can also replicate this while in a bladelock, as shown in TESB, not to mention that against Bruu Jun Fan, Maul was still holding his throat, and killed the latter with a kick because he was close to him.

For the other point, you brought to the table a power that Maul seldom uses in a fight to argue that he could use it counter Vader's chocke. I was simply answering by doing the same thing, and immovability would prevent Vader from being pushed back.

That's why I said that Vader would chocke him and then stab him, right? Obviously Vader wouldn't kill Maul by slamming him against a wall.

As for TP, I think I'll concede for now, as I'm not aware of some of the feats you're mentioning, and they seem to be more impressive than I suspected. I guess I will find them in your respect thread, will I?

7). Fair enough. not that I though Force Screams would change the outcome of the fight anyways.

8). Maul was still in his shown prime though, while Vader wasn't, and there is still the latter's collapsing of a cathedral while gravely wounded. Oh, and Vader also has this, which was done with little effort as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjcW4E3mY6w

(skip at 4:08)

Look at the size of those platforms during the gameplay and cutscenes, they are much bigger than a starfighter or a shuttle.