Originally posted by Nephthys
3. False. That's just an anti-Bane argument that people made a few years ago. I refuted it and theres no real evidence that this is the case. And now with the new design of the temple in Swtor, it's obviously impossible for a single pillar to bring down a temple that size. As I said, the temple survived a bombardment from a capital ship. It's pretty ****ing tough. And it's age is irrelevant since it was noted to be made of a stone that wasn't cracked or worn by age.
For the third one, here's the passage from PoD. Kas'im vs. Bane fight:
"Kas’im responded by using the Force to knock Bane backward, sending him tumbling down the great stone staircase, away from the Blademaster. The fall would have broken his neck-or at least fractured an arm or a leg-if Bane hadn’t cocooned himself in the Force. Even so he reached the bottom bruised, battered, and momentarily stunned.
On the landing high above Kas’im stood beneath the massive arch of the Temple entrance, staring down at him.
"I will follow you wherever you run," he said. "Wherever you go I will eventually find you and kill you. Don’t live your life in fear, Bane. Better to end it now."
"I agree," Bane replied, hurling out the wave of Force energy he had been gathering during the Blademaster’s speech.
There was nothing subtle about Bane’s attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas’im’s body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.
Unfortunately, he couldn’t shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas’im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi’lek’s dying screams with a deafening rumble."
(taken from Path of Destruction)
To recap:
1. Kas’im was able to push back Bane with TK.
2. If Kas’im did not choose to stand beneath the archway and give Bane prep time, the fight might have easily ended differently.
3. Bane charged up the attack and even then Kas’im was able to block it.
4. You’re right that it was not the archway that gave in, but the walls. Nevertheless, the passage still states that the archway followed and the roof gave in after some time, indicating that it was indeed a domino effect.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There was no mention because the bombardment wasn't canon yet. And what are you talking about? You see one of the four pillars collapse with no signs of the bombardment stopping in sight. 😐
Remind me about it collapsing? I'm watching the trailer and all I see is a small spray of splinters and an explosion.
Ohh, also a Sith with a green lightsaber. What a rebel.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Remind me about it collapsing? I'm watching the trailer and all I see is a small spray of splinters and an explosion.Ohh, also a Sith with a green lightsaber. What a rebel.
Originally posted by Stigma
Nah, for the first two of your points.For the third one, here's the passage from PoD. Kas'im vs. Bane fight:
"[b]Kas’im responded by using the Force to knock Bane backward, sending him tumbling down the great stone staircase, away from the Blademaster.
The fall would have broken his neck-or at least fractured an arm or a leg-if Bane hadn’t cocooned himself in the Force. Even so he reached the bottom bruised, battered, and momentarily stunned.
On the landing high above Kas’im stood beneath the massive arch of the Temple entrance, staring down at him.
"I will follow you wherever you run," he said. "Wherever you go I will eventually find you and kill you. Don’t live your life in fear, Bane. Better to end it now."
"I agree," Bane replied, hurling out the wave of Force energy he had been gathering during the Blademaster’s speech.
There was nothing subtle about Bane’s attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas’im’s body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.
Unfortunately, he couldn’t shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas’im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi’lek’s dying screams with a deafening rumble."
(taken from Path of Destruction)To recap:
1. Kas’im was able to push back Bane with TK.
2. If Kas’im did not choose to stand beneath the archway and give Bane prep time, the fight might have easily ended differently.
3. Bane charged up the attack and even then Kas’im was able to block it.
4. You’re right that it was not the archway that gave in, but the walls. Nevertheless, the passage still states that the archway followed and the roof gave in after some time, indicating that it was indeed a domino effect. [/B]
1. Bane was in full retreat by this point, so I'm not surprised.
2. True.
3. Block a portion of the wave, yes. Obviously since he didn't block the part that obliterated the temple, quite a lot of force didn't hit him.
4. That doesn't indicate anything, a Force Wave doesn't hit everything at exactly the same time. So it makes perfect sense that first it destroyed the walls then hit everything behind them. I don't see how this would change anything either way, he still caused enough damage to destroy the temple. Whether it was through straight blowing everything up or destroying the bottom levels and walls enough to collapse the roof doesn't really matter. Since it's still a feat weeeeeell above Dooku lifting some rocks.
If you want to see just how big the Lehon Temple is now, I found this video:
At 29.00, 29.30 minutes he gets to the temple entrance and looks at it. You can see that merely collapsing the entrance and the archway couldn't possibly have collapsed the entire thing. He'd needed to have hit a hell of a lot more than that.
Originally posted by Nargaroth
Two of my examples (Mighella/Bulq) are from the comics. And lol at Dooku's lightning being weak because it can be blocked with a lightsaber. Against Obi-Wan, he evidently wasn't using his full power. Against Obi-Wan and Tiplee, he was firing a short, one handed burst that spread across two lightsabers.And going by your route, I could easily argue that Sidious' lightning is weak because Luke briefly managed to use Tutaminis on it in ROTJ, and blocking it with the Force would be more difficult than blocking it with a lightsaber. I could also argue that Vitiate's lightning is weak because two Jedi were able to block his FLS (which was performed with more power than what Dooku used in those instances) for a decent time. Not to mention that Savage and Ventress couldn't deflect Dooku's Lightning, and Anakin didn't block it with that much ease, so that amounts to nothing, and it's honestly silly.
Regardless, Dooku also killed four Nightbrothers, who have increased durability and pain resistance by virtue of being Zabraks, with a short burst of lightning. Even using only this feat, his lightning is not weak, or even average.
Dooku's lightning was blocked with lightsaber without significant struggle by Kenobi, Anakin and Ventress(Yes, she can deflect his lightning too and did). In comparison for Windu to block Sidious' lightning was a great struggle. Yoda causally repelled Dooku's lightning, while struggled a lot against Sidious'. Comparing to Sidious Dooku's lightning is significantly weaker, there is no way around it.
Don't see how bringing Luke's example changes anything, he still got overpowered.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Or you have eye issues and can't see something so blunt that even Wookieepedia has four different articles agree with me? Stop embarrassing yourself further, your reputation on this forum is already low enough.
I can't see any articles that agree with you. Do you need more time to edit them or something?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Ventress did deflect Dooku's lightning actually. And those Nightbrothers weren't shown to be dead, and Zabraks aren't THAT much more durable than humans.We didn't see Maul or Bulq directly after the examples you mentioned, so you can't know that. Ventress actually was slightly smoking after Dooku hit her with lightning btw, at least in the videos I'm watching. So was Anakin when Dooku captured him in Shadow Warrior. But yes, you're right. Sometimes it's present and sometimes it isn't. It's just a stylistic choice that some make and others don't. As I said, it doesn't mean anything. Theres no actual burns on Maul's body that indicate his flesh being charred, so obviously he wasn't.
And your point is bunk, because it's a hell of a long way from "slightly smoking" to "completely disintegrated". It's utterly nonsensical to think that just because Dooku managed to barely singe a captured Maul, that he can get to Bane's level, despite him hitting people multiple times and not turning them to ash. Don't be ridiculous. 😬
Ventress didn't manage to deflect it in the Rattattak arena. Why shouldn't the Nightbrothers be dead? There's nothing indicating that, and it's far more logical to conclude that they would be dead. They were not only Zabraks anyway, which have by default superior durability to humans, but trained warriors, so they would most likely be even more durable. Maul wasn't left smoking by Mighella's lightning (which should have done so immediately, not after the end of the battle anyway).That is a fact, and him being so durable only detracts from your case, not to mention that he was hit by lightning at full power.
Your'e right in saying that he wasn't burned (I misused the word charred), but that doesn''t detract from my own case. The fact that Maul was screaming and left smoking by purposely low level lightning is more than enough.
Now you're making up things. Dooku never needed multiple hits to kill non Force sensitives, and his inability to reduce Jedi to ash doesn't mean that he couldn't do that to normal people. And Just in case you don't know, Jedi are protected by passive Force barriers that depend on their power, and Dooku mostly, if not always, used Lightning on powerful Jedi/Sith/Dark Jedi, so your point is moot, because Bane never incinerated even fodder Force sensitives as well. That kind of feat is on Plapatine's level.
Maul being captured may affect his passive barriers, but not his durability, because the latter is heavily dependant on his physcality, and it was already stated by sources that Sidious tested it to the very limits:
Zabraks are renowned for their mental discipline, and have a natural ability to withstand physical suffering, and Sidious tested Maul's endurance to the very limits during his training.
Had Dooku done this to a normal Jedi I might have agreed with you, but Maul is incredibly durable even without Force shields.
Ridiculous? Well yes, it must be impossible for Dooku to incinerate human mercenaries with full power lightning, when he could leave Maul screaming and smoking with a short, purposely low level blast of that same lightning. Because Maul is just as durable and pain tolerant as them or even as a fodder Force sensitive, right? 😂
Anyway I just said that Dooku is close to Bane in that regard, not that he is just as powerful, since I still regard Bane as superior.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok.Personally I still take destroying that as beyond Dooku. But whatevs.
Perhaps in raw power, but again, one of the things that makes Dooku great isn't just his level of ability, but how he uses it.
Also, I'd contest how much of a difference it would make. I mean, Anakin's force scream brought down a dome that was similarly quite massive, and he didn't have the advantage of a potent nexus. Dooku was still, for the most part, evenly matched with Anakin--And often was the dominant force user in their battles.
Anyway, in an all out, this fight should be close IMO.
EDIT: And Nagaroth, gotta say, you're wrong. Dooku's lightning has demonstratably not been able to incinerate non-force sensitives like Bane's could. However, he's shown that he can use it to kill multiple targets instantly on three occasions, as well as char plasteel armor. His lightning is a force to be reckoned with, but not on Bane's level.
Originally posted by Nargaroth
Ventress didn't manage to deflect it in the Rattattak arena.
She was inexperienced and ran right into it. Didn't even get her sabers up. She blocks it in the fight with Dooku and Savage, though it didn't look easy.
Originally posted by Nargaroth
Why shouldn't the Nightbrothers be dead? There's nothing indicating that, and it's far more logical to conclude that they would be dead. They were not only Zabraks anyway, which have by default superior durability to humans, but trained warriors, so they would most likely be even more durable.
Nothing indicating they weren't dead, just also nothing indicating they were instead of merely knocked out.
Originally posted by Nargaroth
Maul wasn't left smoking by Mighella's lightning (which should have done so immediately, not after the end of the battle anyway).That is a fact, and him being so durable only detracts from your case, not to mention that he was hit by lightning at full power.
From what I can tell we only see his feet after he cuts her in half, so we don't know if he was smoking or not. When she's actually hitting him with it theres too much light to actually see anything, although I can see some weird white blur around the lightning so maybe that was supposed to be smoke. But as I said, its a stylistic choice and doesn't mean anything.
Originally posted by Nargaroth
Your'e right in saying that he wasn't burned (I misused the word charred), but that doesn''t detract from my own case. The fact that Maul was screaming and left smoking by purposely low level lightning is more than enough.
More than enough for what? If you seriously thinking making Maul scream indicates Dooku can disintegrate people, then I think I'll just stop the discussion right here.
Also you don't know that it was purposefully low level. Maybe Dooku's full power lightning is such utter dogshit that he can't kill even a defenseless Maul with it and making him scream is the best he can do?
Originally posted by Nargaroth
Now you're making up things. Dooku never needed multiple hits to kill non Force sensitives,
I didn't say that he did?
Originally posted by Nargaroth
and his inability to reduce Jedi to ash doesn't mean that he couldn't do that to normal people.
I wasn't talking about him not turning Jedi to ash.
Originally posted by Nargaroth
And Just in case you don't know, Jedi are protected by passive Force barriers that depend on their power, and Dooku mostly, if not always, used Lightning on powerful Jedi/Sith/Dark Jedi, so your point is moot, because Bane never incinerated even fodder Force sensitives as well. That kind of feat is on Palpatine's level.
It's "not always". There's no if.
Originally posted by Nargaroth
Maul being captured may affect his passive barriers, but not his durability, because the latter is heavily dependant on his physcality, and it was already stated by sources that Sidious tested it to the very limits:-- The Ultimate Visual Guide
Had Dooku done this to a normal Jedi I might have agreed with you, but Maul is incredibly durable even without Force shields.
Yes, I really doubt Maul could defend himself with the Force, which is how most of a force users durability and capability to resist damage comes from. Maul being very durable doesn't mean much of anything. Dooku did nothing more than cause him pain, so who even cares? If anything I'd call this a low feat for Dooku. 😬
Originally posted by Nargaroth
Ridiculous? Well yes, it must be impossible for Dooku to incinerate human mercenaries with full power lightning, when he could leave Maul screaming and smoking with a short, purposely low level blast of that same lightning. Because Maul is just as durable and pain tolerant as them or even as a fodder Force sensitive, right? 😂
Yes. 😐
Originally posted by Nargaroth
Anyway I just said that Dooku is close to Bane in that regard, not that he is just as powerful, since I still regard Bane as superior.
Dooku isn't even in the same ballpark as Bane, let alone close.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Perhaps in raw power, but again, one of the things that makes Dooku great isn't just his level of ability, but how he uses it.Also, I'd contest how much of a difference it would make. I mean, Anakin's force scream brought down a dome that was similarly quite massive, and he didn't have the advantage of a potent nexus. Dooku was still, for the most part, evenly matched with Anakin--And often was the dominant force user in their battles.
Anyway, in an all out, this fight should be close IMO.
That feat made Dooku shit his pants though. 😆