What was Darth Maul's true potential ?

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Like I said in the other thread. If Maul hadn't been so stuck up about his lightsaber skills for the majority of his life and actually gave his attention to his Force powers, he would be a ridiculous sorcerer esc character. Maul always had a lot of potential in the Force but for the largest chunk of his life he was obsessed with beating people by being a great swordsman and that is Darth Mauls folly

And to be honest, the fact that he was only 22 by the time he was considered to be one of the greatest duelists in Sith history already shows just how much more skilled he is than other characters relative to age. Then consider the fact that he had time in there to squeeze in all types of Esoteric Force techniques ranging from advanced telepathy, advanced mind tricks, invisibility/cloaking, Mechu-Deru, gravity manipulation, ect. Juyo itself is a lightsaber form that requires you to be a high level master of several other fighting disciplines before you can truly control it, and one of the fighting disciplines used to supplement his Juyo was Niman - which takes ten years of training itself to even master. Not only that but he also learned Jar'Kai, the dual blade variant of Niman on top of his mastery of the Saberstaff. And not only did he master Teras Kasi and funnel that into his lightsaber combat, he mastered numerous other Martial arts even as a teenager according to a few sources.

Then consider how he lost two of his legs, twelve years of his life, doing nothing other than surviving and stewing in his hatred in a little cave. As a result he comes back into the world a hell of a lot more powerful and skilled with the Force, but every bit as skilled in terms of dueling, every bit as intelligent and tactical as he once was and as physically capable as he once was.

I mean, the guy has crammed a lot of disciplines into his collective of skills and combat techniques. People underrate the hell out of Maul (probably due to Marco wanking him), because he isn't some out of the stratosphere Force User. Fact is, given his circumstances and age, he's proportionately done a lot more than some characters could ever dream of doing.

Maul is one hell of a duelist that is for sure but when looking at his potential, if he truly was going to surpass Sidious, he didn't even come close. Maul had so much potential but all sidious ever trained him to be was a dog on a leash. And after Maul stopped being Sidious's dog, Maul was just a minor pest. If you are saying that he became what he was because of Sidious's training then Sidious is a shitty master

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Maul is one hell of a duelist that is for sure but when looking at his potential, if he truly was going to surpass Sidious, he didn't even come close. Maul had so much potential but all sidious ever trained him to be was a dog on a leash. And after Maul stopped being Sidious's dog, Maul was just a minor pest. If you are saying that he became what he was because of Sidious's training then Sidious is a shitty master

LOL @ him just being a dog on a leash. Like I've said before, you can call him a dog on a leash all you want but he'd eviscerate 90% of characters he would encounter, and he's done more in his short span of life than most characters are capable of.

Actually it was noted in an interview that Maul's military was a legitimate threat to Sidious.

And yes.. he got his training from Sidious, and the Orsis Academy where Sidious sent him. For what he was intended to be - an assassin and spy - he excelled, and he was already one of the best duelists in the mythos by the time he was 22 based on pure work ethic. I find that more interesting to read than some hurrdurr uber powerful Force magician.

And on the point of surpassing Sidious - if Maul was given a true Banite Sith apprenticeship, and was actually given longer than his early twenties to train before being cut in half by a plot device, maybe he would have surpassed Sidious. He certainly has the discipline for it that most others lack.

First of, Maul was a True Banite Sith apprentice to Sidious. He was intended to take over from Sidious one day.

But yeah, he was only around 22 in TPM. Had he not been cut in half and had he spent the next 30 years mastering the Force, then I don't see why he couldn't be an equal to Sidious (or at least close to that level).

But saying all that I've not seen anything to make me believe that he could/would have actually Surpassed Sidious's power level.

Based on what was he a true Banite Sith? No doubt he was a Sith Lord but he wasn't a Banite Sith. Probably a semi-Banite Sith if anything.

Originally posted by ILS
Based on what was he a true Banite Sith? No doubt he was a Sith Lord but he wasn't a Banite Sith. Probably a semi-Banite Sith if anything.

Based on the way the creators of TCW portrayed him. And Lucas confirming Sidious didn't want him killed/replaced (unless obviously someone much more powerful came along).

That's why he was able to build a power base for himself. It was all part of his training (which he even confirms to Sidious). That's not part of a mere Assassin's skill set.

I don't believe there was any improvement room for Maul. Children learn faster, Maul was trained from childhood down to his limits.
True Sith training would add lightning and Sorcery to his abilities, first is a negligible advantage, second - non factor.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Based on the way the creators of TCW portrayed him. And Lucas confirming Sidious didn't want him killed/replaced (unless obviously someone much more powerful came along).

That's why he was able to build a power base for himself. It was all part of his training (which he even confirms to Sidious). That's not part of a mere Assassin's skill set.

Maul never was a mere assassin but it was the foundation of his training. Forming the Shadow Collective showed great intelligence and cunning on his part but that has nothing to do with whether or not he was a Banite Sith or if he was meant to surpass Sidious.

Galen Marak by the age 17 became more powerful than Darth Maul by the age of 22 and they both seemed to have around the same potential.

Had Sidious chose to train Maul properly he could have surpassed Sidious, he could have learned how to wield a lightsaber as well as he did after.

Tbh going by their respective showings against Vader, Galen and TPM Maul aren't too far apart at all, really.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Tbh going by their respective showings against Vader, Galen and TPM Maul aren't too far apart at all, really.

👆

Even Proxy's Darth Maul program was a good match for Galen, take the real Darth Maul and he can kick Galen's ass.

Originally posted by Q99
Keep in mind that Maul was probably under half the age of Sidious when Sidious killed his master, or when Plagueis killed his.

It takes a long time to transverse the higher tiers, even when one has the potential.

Agreed, by TPM he was even younger than ''padawan'' TPM Kenobi (Kenobi 24 / Maul 22) yet he was clearly much more powerful than Kenobi like one tier ahead, even in TPM.

I am not sure he could surpass his master or not eventually, but I am sure he would be a good challenge for his master (in lightsaber combat at least) he could be similar to vaapad amped Mace Windu maybe.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Galen Marak by the age 17 became more powerful than Darth Maul by the age of 22 and they both seemed to have around the same potential.

Had Sidious chose to train Maul properly he could have surpassed Sidious, he could have learned how to wield a lightsaber as well as he did after.

And I can't help but giggle at people thinking Galen and TPM Maul are remotely comparable as duelists.

Originally posted by ILS
How did TCW portray him as a Banite Sith? And that theory doesn't really hold up considering Sidious was planning to replace Maul with Dooku prior to TPM anyway, which makes sense because he would need someone with a talent for politics heading into the Clone Wars opposed to an assassin.

Maul never was a mere assassin but it was the foundation of his training. Forming the Shadow Collective showed great intelligence and cunning on his part but that has nothing to do with whether or not he was a Banite Sith or if he was meant to surpass Sidious.

When Dave Filoni and Sam Witwer were discussing about Darth Maul's return, they talked about the rule of 2, and how Maul would have to be trained in all the ways of the Sith so he could replace Sidioud one day.

Who said Sidious was already planning to replace Maul with Dooku. He might have been considering it, but Lucas clearly states Sidious didn't plan on losing Maul.

Forming the Shadow Collective was all down to his training by Sidious as a true all round Sith. This had been made very clear by Sam Witwer and Dave Filoni.

Originally posted by Arhael
I don't believe there was any improvement room for Maul. Children learn faster, Maul was trained from childhood down to his limits.
True Sith training would add lightning and Sorcery to his abilities, first is a negligible advantage, second - non factor.

All Jedi are trained from a young age. And I personally think all Jedi and Sith improve over time. That's why people like Windu and Dooku are above people like Kenobi and Maul.

Jedi bid their time and generally hold back on training most of the time. The best example is how slowly Anakin progressed comparing to Luke who didn't even have a master to train him.

Sith drill and strain their limits on regular basis. Also, Maul has got accolade of being one of the most highly trained Sith in history.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Who said Sidious was already planning to replace Maul with Dooku. He might have been considering it, but Lucas clearly states Sidious didn't plan on losing Maul.

In the Darth Plagueis novel, Sidious never expected such a lost, he even wonder how Maul defeated a more powerful jedi while he lose to inferior. Once, after Maul destroyed the part of Black Sun, he even warned Maul to not toying with his force sensitive opponent, this is really contradicts with some thoughts here.

Maul is constantly doing that shit as well.

“My blade halved the Nightsister after she tried to defeat me with summoned Force-lightning.” Sidious paused for a moment. “Not even Garyn?” “No.” Sidious detected a note of hesitation. “No, what, Darth Maul?” “I drowned him.” Touching his chin, Sidious stood where the Zabrak could see him. “Well, someone had to have dealt the wound you suffered to your left hand. Unless, of course, you gave it to yourself.” Maul clenched the black-gloved hand. “There is no pain where strength lies.” “I didn’t inquire if the wound hurt. I asked who was responsible.” “Garyn,” Maul said quietly. Sidious feigned surprise. “So he was something of a challenge. Being slightly Force-sensitive.” “He was nothing compared with the power of the dark side.” Sidious studied him. “Did you tell him as much, my apprentice? Answer honestly.” “He came to the conclusion.” “He identified you as a Sith. Did he assume, then, that you were a Sith Lord?” Maul stared at the floor. “I—” “You revealed that you answer to a Master. Am I correct?” Maul forced himself to respond. “Yes, Master.” “And perhaps you went so far as to say something about the revenge of the Sith.” “I did, Master.” Sidious approached him, his face contorted in anger. “And if by some marvel Garyn had managed to escape, or even defeat the one-being army that is Darth Maul, what repercussions might we be facing, apprentice?” “I beg your forgiveness, Master.” “Perhaps you’re not worthy of the Infiltrator, after all. The moment you allowed yourself to become distracted, the Black Sun leader cut open your hand.” Maul remained silent. “I hope you thanked him before you killed him,” Sidious went on, “because he taught you a valuable lesson. When you face someone strong in the Force you must remain focused—even when you’re convinced that your opponent is incapacitated. Then is not the time to bask in the glory of your victory or draw out the moment. You must deliver a killing strike and be done with it. Reserve your self-praise for after the fact, or you will suffer more than a hand wound.” “I will remember, Master.”

----- Darth Plagueis Novel

It wasn’t until he arrived in Theed and learned of Darth Maul’s defeat at the hands of the Jedi in a power-generator station that he understood in part the reason for the sense of loss and profound solitude he had experienced following the murder of Plagueis. He could have pressed one of the other Jedi who had arrived on Naboo for information as to how Maul had managed to kill a master sword fighter only to be overcome by a lesser one, but he didn’t want to know, and as a result be able to imagine the contest. Still, it gave him great pleasure to stand among Yoda, Mace Windu, and other Masters and watch Qui-Gon Jinn’s body reduced to ash, knowing that the Jedi was just the first casualty in a war that had been declared but not yet begun; one in which ten thousand Jedi would follow Qui-Gon to the grave … That Plagueis’s death and Maul’s defeat had occurred in relative simultaneity could only have been the will of the dark side of the Force, as was the fact that, until such time as he took and trained a new apprentice, Palpatine was now the galaxy’s sole Sith Lord.

----- Darth Plagueis Novel

Originally posted by ILS
I don't think it'd make sense for Maul to get to even Dooku's level of power. At least in regards to offensive powers like telekinesis. It'd be cool if he somehow found innovative ways of advancing Force Augmentation, seeing as he is primarily a physical combatant. But aside from that I'd rather Maul kept to his roots.

Dooku pretty much stated that he had reached his limit in power as of Yoda: DR. Don't remember the quote, but if my memory serves me, he also somewhat implied that Ventress had greater potential than he, so it's very likely that Maul's potential could have been above Dooku's as well. Not hard to imagine anyway, as I doubt Ventress's potential to be above Maul's.