What was Darth Maul's true potential ?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dooku pretty much stated that he had reached his limit in power as of Yoda: DR. Don't remember the quote, but if my memory serves me, he also somewhat implied that Ventress had greater potential than he, so it's very likely that Maul's potential could have been above Dooku's as well. Not hard to imagine anyway, as I doubt Ventress's potential to be above Maul's.

Originally posted by ILS
Ah, I didn't know this. Interesting. I mean I wouldn't be against the idea of Maul becoming significantly more powerful. It's just annoying seeing his character being butchered again and again.

I could be wrong about the Ventress part, but I'm pretty positive about Dooku indicating that his power was at it's limit.

I can give you the quote and page number (paper back) later tonight if I can find the book.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I could be wrong about the Ventress part, but I'm pretty positive about Dooku indicating that his power was at it's limit.

I can give you the quote and page number (paper back) later tonight if I can find the book.

Sidious also seemed to regard Ventress' increasing power as a developing threat, which is why he asked Dooku to eliminate her. Maybe Maul and Ventress will see an improvement in power as they get older.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I could be wrong about the Ventress part, but I'm pretty positive about Dooku indicating that his power was at it's limit.

Interesting, I was thinking the same about Dooku , it seems that he was really using his full %100 potential, especially since he was 20 years older than his Sith master Palpatine and his mastery and experience on the force leads me to that conclusion.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I could be wrong about the Ventress part, but I'm pretty positive about Dooku indicating that his power was at it's limit.

.

Well that would only be totally true if his knowledge and mastery of the dark side was =/> Sidious's. But somehow I doubt that.

Full potential is a difficult thing to measure, because it assumes one has completely mastered all the ways of the force with nothing left to learn, and ha reached their highest and fullest connection to the Force. I mean if we include the Legends Eu, then even ROTS Sidious hasn't reached his full potential as DE Sidious was even more powerful.

"But do I really want to make you so strong?" the Count said softly. "We are such pleasant company now, while you know your place. But if I were to make you my apprentice, if I were to take you by the hand and lead you down below the black water that is the dark side, then either you would drown, or you would grow far stronger, and neither option appeals to me. You burn so brightly now, I would hate to put you out." "Why should you? What harm is there in teaching me to help you better?" "You would betray me." He shrugged, cutting off her protests. "It is the unhappy hazard of embracing the dark side. I am old, and I have learned the limits of my ambition. You are young, and strong, and those two things have always led to one place in the history of the Sith." "You think I would intrigue against you?" "Not at first. But a day would come when you would disagree with my decisions. When you would start to dream of how much better things would be without my liver-spotted hand held over you."

----Yoda: DR

That would be the quote, ILS. Thanks, Marco. Although I recalled it a bit differently. Interpret it as you will, but Dooku did imply he didn't have much room left for improvement, whereas Ventress, while already powerful, still had many years to deepen her connection to the force and become more powerful.

DP, no, Sidious didn't teach Dooku everything he knew, but I think Dooku was referring to the power he could dish out. Sure he may have been able to learn other techniques, but many techniques require power far beyond some user's potential, or require aid. For instance, Vitiate and a lot of the ancient sith had mastery over techniques, but required aid or rituals, otherwise their own power was insufficient. Mastery and knowledge does not always determine one's personal power. I think Dooku was implying that his own natural raw power was at it's limit, and that he couldn't grow beyond what he had already realized.

Though Dooku is a power house, and most of his feats are done casually, as we've never seen him fully exert himself (unless it's struggling to fight off an angry Anakin's physical attacks or attacks from an angry Savage); however, I'm pretty sure Dooku knows how much he's capable of dishing out if he fully unleashed himself. I'm also pretty sure he had full command of the power he had at his disposal.

"His knowledge of the Force was…unique."

--- Jocasta Nu, on Dooku

As for Dooku's knowledge on the force, yeah it is damn unique. That's why Dooku > Maul on overall knowledge of the force.

But knowledge on the Dark Side is different than overall knowledge on the force, most of the Dooku's knowledge depends on his Jedi master career, he was one of the best teacher in the jedi order.

But as I said before, Dark Side dedication is different than overall knowledge on the Force, that's why even Darth Maul (let alone Sidious) is better than Dooku at the dark side, Maul survived from being cut in half just because of his dark side dedication and his knowledge, killed a telepath via dark thoughts because of the same reasons, his pain tolerance and durability also depends on his dark side powers. These dark side abilities are impossible to accomplish for Dooku imho.

As for the matter of Ventress has more potential than Dooku, it make sense to me actually. She was able to force choke Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time when the time she felt desperately and she was losing bad against them, but of course she failed to do that again, since she didn't take enough training to do it consistently or willingly, and clearly Dooku knew that she could surpass him in time and didn't trained her enough to do so. As for Dooku, he couldn't choke Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time imo, he could choke them separately but at the same time ? I doubt. And that's the difference should be Dooku's and Ventress's potentials.

The difference between Maul and Ventress is, Maul trained as a Sith and he take enough training (one of the most highly trained Sith in the history) to improve himself alone in the clone wars while Ventress's training was half finished due to Dooku's will.

I really wonder what was Savage's true potential either, he force choked Dooku and Ventress at the same time, then he created a force wave that even shrugged off Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time. He might also become powerful as his brother with enough training.

I don't know that we will see that deleted scene (Maul force pushing Sidious) in blu-ray editions or not, it could give us more details about Maul's true potential.

Yeah.. so Darth Maul being intended to surpass Sidious is in fact false, which I knew it was, I just didn't have a source to confirm it. Here it is, Sidious' own description of his relationship with his former apprentice, Darth Maul:

Sidious also refers to Maul as an animal, who could never expand beyond his limited set of abilities in the Book of Sith.

LOL.

So many fallacious there...

1- Maul homeworld ; Iridonia
2- Maul's tattoos made by Sidious
3- He didn't foresee Maul's death according to Darth Plagueis Novel.

Damn, that's mean. And kind of weird, because his abilities aren't really limited to begin with. I'm not expecting him to bust out Force Lightning or Tutaminis any time soon but he's skilled with the Force in his own way. Maybe he meant that he doesn't intend to teach Maul anything past what he's given him?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious also refers to Maul as an animal, who could never expand beyond his limited set of abilities in the Book of Sith.

That was Dooku in RotS novel, not Sidious. And that is a fallacious too, according to new canon,

''Great Sith Lord Darth Maul'' - Count Dooku, TCW 03x13 - Monster

Originally posted by Marco1907
LOL.

So many fallacious there...

1- Maul homeworld ; Iridonia
2- Maul's tattoos made by Sidious
3- He didn't foresee Maul's death according to Darth Plagueis Novel.

In the Darth Plagueis novel Maul still isn't considered a "true apprentice", and I still haven't seen a single shred of evidence for Maul being intended to surpass Sidious.

Originally posted by Marco1907
That was Dooku in RotS novel, not Sidious. And that is a fallacious too, according to new canon,

''Great Sith Lord Darth Maul'' - Count Dooku

No, it's Sidious in the Book of Sith:

"Warriors are animals. Agent's like Darth Maul have their uses, but can never expand beyond their limited set of tasks."

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, it's Sidious in the Book of Sith:

"Warriors are animals. Agent's like Darth Maul have their uses, but can never expand beyond their limited set of tasks."

Well my bad then, still, he clearly proved to be this was a wrong assessment, especially in TCW. He created a vast criminal empire and conquered the Mandalore via conspiracy.

And then, he managed to capture both Count Dooku and General Grievous via using his wits.

Which has nothing to do with surpassing Sidious

Originally posted by Marco1907
Well my bad then, still, he clearly proved to be this was a wrong assessment, especially in TCW. He created a vast criminal empire and conquered the Mandalore via conspiracy.

And then, he managed to capture both Count Dooku and General Grievous via using his wits.

And lost. So he didn't actually expand beyond his role successfully.

I was referring to this ''but can never expand beyond their limited set of tasks. '' This is also refers to his power improvement imo, it seems that they think TPM Maul was his prime but well they were wrong.

According to some pre-TCW sources, clearly Maul was seen like Savage Opress, which is dumb for this EU writers. I mean, can't they see it would be dumb ? Sidious raised and trained Maul for over 10 years just because he can be killed in TPM ? Really ?

Filoni and TCW are the best source for Maul's potential, since Filoni was very close to Lucas and he knows Lucas's ideas more than any EU writer. (Also Lucas was also directed the TCW sometimes) That's why Lucas himself said that Sidious was not expecting Maul's death in the TPM, ILS's source (which says Sidious foresee Maul's death in TPM) also contradicts with Lucas as well.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And lost. So he didn't actually expand beyond his role successfully.

What ? How can you skip this like ''And lost.''

So, Sidious was not actually expand his role succussfully because ''He lost'' in RotJ ?

Losing or winning is not the issue here, using a tactical and strategical mind is.