What was Darth Maul's true potential ?

Started by Marco19078 pages

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not sure how that contradicts anything I said.

As I said, Maul was likely intended to do more than go around killing people, but once Sidious found someone more helpful to his plans of galactic domination, he planned on replacing Maul right away. Well, it was hinted at in "The Lost One," seeing how he already gave Dooku his new sith name while Maul was still his apprentice.

This is not certain, I watch the Episode you've mentioned and nothing is ''certain'' there.

In Plagueis Novel Sidious instantly thought Dooku as a new apprentice after the events of Naboo. Before the death of Maul, there is nothing says he considered Dooku as a replacement of Maul.

In fact these are his last words to Plagueis ;

I’ve no need for a cochancellor. Your presence, much less your unnecessary counsel, would only confuse matters. I have Maul to do what the risk of discovery might not allow me to do, while I execute the rest of the Grand Plan: growing an army, fomenting rebellion and fabricating intergalactic war, corralling the Jedi and catching them unawares

I know you people like Sidious so much, and Sidious shouldn't make any mistakes in your point of view, (and even some EU writers thinks that way) but clearly Sidious failed just as Maul failed in Naboo, Sidious never thought Dooku before Maul's death, not to mention Lucas himself is the primary source, and we shouldn't even discuss this (Maul / Dooku replacement before the Naboo) in the first place.

''--well, he (Sidious) shouldn't have gotten himself in a position of getting his apprentice killed anyways-''

----George Lucas

Even in TPM Movie, (without TCW retcon) Maul should've known the Grand Plan (if he is not stupid.)

YouTube video

Maul was Sidious's side when Sidious was executing his plans on Trade Federation.

Originally posted by COPPA LAW 1
ILS & S66 taking a L, here. Good one, fellas, but Ant & DP won this one.
Due to my lack of knowledge on a kiddies animation. How unfortunate..... especially on a supposed "expanded universe" board.

True

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well obviously he wasn't going to introduce himself to anybody by his Darth title, as that would give away his status as a sith, which would have confirmed that they still exist, which Sidious didn't want at the time.

Unless Sidious initially planned on killing Dooku after he sent Dooku on that "important mission" (which was more vital to the grand plan than anything Maul was tasked with), then I'm more than certain that Sidious had to take Dooku in as his apprentice in order to trust him with such an important task that Maul wasn't even aware of, especially with Dooku being a former jedi master. It's very unlikely that Sidious would trust a former jedi master with a very important sith conspiracy mission, with Dooku likely knowing Sidious's own identity, and only make Dooku a mere dark side adept. Now, I'm not saying this is absolute proof that he intended to replace Maul with Dooku, but it's a pretty big hint that's hard to ignore.

As far as Sidious's intentions on Maul being his true successor up until Maul was defeated, well the only thing to suggest that comes from statements from Filoni and Sam, which contradict earlier statements that came directly from Lucas himself. That's why I'm hesitant to take the statement as absolute proof, especially after it's heavily implied in "The Lost One" that Dooku was already serving as Sidious's secret apprentice and tasked with very important orders to carry out that would require Dooku to have a great deal of secrets regarding the grand plan. To me, it just seemed like off handed remarks from Dave and Sam. I think the main thing they were trying to stress was that Maul was meant and trained to be much more than what was originally thought by fans, but as far as we know, Maul never got that far in his career while serving Sidious, and was likely going to be eventually replaced by Dooku once Sidious recruited Dooku to his cause.

@ILS, DP doesn't take into account the EU's depiction of Maul being just a mere assassin to Sidious, and he's right on that part. New canon confirms he was meant to be much more, but as you said that's all he really amounted to while under Sidious's heel, as far as we know at least. I'm not sure why DP is trying to go in on you so hard, though. It seems pretty obvious to me that you're not well aware of the statements made by Filoni, and that you are very knowledgeable on EU Maul, which constantly implies he wasn't meant to amount to anything more than a mere assassin, not being smart enough to actually help Sidious conduct a galactic wide conflict.

Sidious likely would have killed Dooku later on.

Filoni explained the whole Pre-Tpm Dooku thing as just something that wasn't really planned. Dooku as a Jedi listened to Sifo-Dyas who had visions of the Sith and this clone army, so they went on the hunt for Sidious. Obviously Dooku found Sidious (with good intentions initially) but Sidious swayed him to the dark side and got him to tell eveything about Sifo Dyas' s visions, and then got him to kill Sifo Dyas under a different name, and then pretend to be him.

So the Dooku thing was nothing Sidious planned from day 1. It's just something that stumbled on him. But in any case we know Maul knew all about the Clone Wars grand plans.

The Eu wasn't all just "Maul was just an assassin and never meant to be a permanent Sith".

Read TPM novel. Sidious was clearly upset at the loss of Maul. Read any of the Maul novels, and Maul was clearly seen as a true Sith by Sidious. A trainee he put way too much work into to just be a mere assassin.

So the Legends Eu wad not clear cut on this matter at all. But in any case Legends had a hierarchy where Lucas's statements came first. So in either case, in the old or new canon, ILS is wrong.

If you read this whole thread ILS' s counter argument comes down to "Well I completely ignore anything Lucas says because he's not contributed anything significant to Maul" LOL

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidious likely would have killed Dooku later on.

Filoni explained the whole Pre-Tpm Dooku thing as just something that wasn't really planned. Dooku as a Jedi listened to Sifo-Dyas who had visions of the Sith and this clone army, so they went on the hunt for Sidious. Obviously Dooku found Sidious (with good intentions initially) but Sidious swayed him to the dark side and got him to tell eveything about Sifo Dyas' s visions, and then got him to kill Sifo Dyas under a different name, and then pretend to be him.

So the Dooku thing was nothing Sidious planned from day 1. It's just something that stumbled on him. But in any case we know Maul knew all about the Clone Wars grand plans.

The Eu wasn't all just "Maul was just an assassin and never meant to be a permanent Sith".

Read TPM novel. Sidious was clearly upset at the loss of Maul. Read any of the Maul novels, and Maul was clearly seen as a true Sith by Sidious. A trainee he put way too much work into to just be a mere assassin.

So the Legends Eu wad not clear cut on this matter at all. But in any case Legends had a hierarchy where Lucas's statements came first. So in either case, in the old or new canon, ILS is wrong.

If you read this whole thread ILS' s counter argument comes down to "Well I completely ignore anything Lucas says because he's not contributed anything significant to Maul" LOL

There's nothing to indicate Sidious would have killed Dooku, given his political savvy and connections.

I never said Sidious planned on turning Dooku to the dark side from day one. I said he likely would have eventually replaced Maul with Dooku once he recruited him to his cause, considering Dooku was more helpful to the grand plan than Maul would have ever been. I also never said Maul wasn't aware of Sidious's plans; I actually acknowledged the fact that he was, just that his knowledge was likely limited as he most likely didn't know the role Dooku played, or about the mission at all, which was the starting point of the clones creation.

You're also ignoring what Lucas stated, so you're doing the same exact thing you're excusing ILS of doing. Lucas made it clear that neither Maul nor Dooku had the potential to surpass Sidious. That's not to say Maul wasn't being trained as a successor, seeing as Sidious didn't know the path to immortality, so he'd picked and trained someone powerful enough to carry on his legacy, but nothing Filoni stated suggests that Maul had what it took to be a true successor--an equal, and TCW series didn't depict him as such either, especially considering that after Talzin's defeat, he didn't even acknowledge Maul as being a threat to him. Before you say it's because his army was shattered, well, they were shattered by the time Sidious was duking it out with Talzin, but he didn't stop until Talzin was destroyed, because Talzin had the power and potential to be a threat.

No, the EU didn't portray Maul as anything more than a valuable assassin, who would have been useful in taking out jedi. He was never portrayed as having the intellect to help Sidious conduct a galaxy wide conflict. The EU, for the most part, depicted Maul as an extremely intelligent being when it comes to combat, not the mastermind schemer TCW depicted him as being. However, even in new canon, Maul wasn't as important to Sidious's plans as Dooku was, hence why he left him for dead and was satisfied with Dooku. Everything in the source material, from the series to SOD, made it clear that Sidious chose what benefited him at the time. That was basically the theme of SOD regarding Talzin's and especially Maul's hatred for him. That's all I'm saying. But, yes, Sidious was originally training Maul to be a master mind schemer to possibly replace him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

No, the EU didn't portray Maul as anything more than a valuable assassin, who would have been useful in taking out jedi. He was never portrayed as having the intellect to help Sidious conduct a galaxy wide conflict. The EU, for the most part, depicted Maul as an extremely intelligent being when it comes to combat, not the mastermind schemer TCW depicted him as being. However, even in new canon, Maul wasn't as important to Sidious's plans as Dooku was, hence why he left him for dead and was satisfied with Dooku. Everything in the source material, from the series to SOD, made it clear that Sidious chose what benefited him at the time. That was basically the theme of SOD regarding Talzin's and especially Maul's hatred for him. That's all I'm saying. But, yes, Sidious was originally training Maul to be a master mind schemer to possibly replace him.

You've got some wrong ideas about this, the reason Sidious didn't wanted Maul in TCW because he already decided on Anakin not Dooku. There is a deleted scene in Season 5 Episode 16 - Lawless, which is Sidious stopping Anakin to help Obi-Wan at Mandalore. He didn't want to pit Anakin and Maul each other. (Because even with Anakin they could lose to Maul as well) After the events of Naboo, he decided on Anakin not Dooku, (Palpatine : ''And you, young Skywalker; we shall watch your career with great interest..''😉 so Dooku was always a placeholder, first his true apprentice was Maul, then he discovered Anakin's absurd potential in the force and take Dooku as placeholder until he was ready, Sidious could rule the Separatists by himself or with Maul as well, just as he did at Naboo. Dooku was only a important figure for Anakin's adaptation to the dark side, and Anakin learned somethings from Dooku's as well (such as dun moch, and makashi) and by killing him (by taking revenge for his arm) he become closer to the dark side as well.